whats next?
After going from Logitech z5300 to the Lsim 703 and a SVS sb12nsd sub, and getting to have experience 'true' music for the first time.I have to ask, where do I go from here?I don't plan on anything special for an amp as I rarely blast my music anyways.For my next upgrade, I plan to go with a Submersive Subwoofer, but am totally clueless about what to go for with the speakers.I am from toronto and have no clue where I can listen to some of the higher end speakers,thus have no way of knowing what to expect were I to go for something the magnapan 3.7.
So I want to ask from more experience member on this board.What can I expect were I to shell out say 5-10 k for better speakers?Oh I know a'lot of you would probably recommend room treatment,but I have no idea how the room would affect the sound or what to look for in the differences.I'll start experimenting with that as soon as we move into our new house.
FYI-I HATE loud music before the lsim but after...omg once in a while when I do crank it up I get a big grin on my face the clarity is something that I've never experience with the Logitechs.
So I want to ask from more experience member on this board.What can I expect were I to shell out say 5-10 k for better speakers?Oh I know a'lot of you would probably recommend room treatment,but I have no idea how the room would affect the sound or what to look for in the differences.I'll start experimenting with that as soon as we move into our new house.
FYI-I HATE loud music before the lsim but after...omg once in a while when I do crank it up I get a big grin on my face the clarity is something that I've never experience with the Logitechs.
Post edited by skky on
Comments
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If you get Maggies you are going to need a good amp.
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Get your learn on on the rest of the components in your system. What's your entire chain, including cables?
Denon x4000 as the avr,monoprice cables for the sub and some 50-60 dollar 100 foot speaker cables.TBH I did not think cable would affect a system unless they were defects but ofc I'm new to all this so am very open minded lol.
Fyi-I also had no clue speakers can also make songs sound worse lol... Some of the details that I did not know existed in some of my songs came out, and boy was I shock. -
thanks great looking article, will read as soon as I can. -
It's sound very useful!thank you!!
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It's sound very useful!thank you!!
Yes Thanks! I was able to save as a PDF for future reference -
I don't plan on anything special for an amp as I rarely blast my music anyways.
A high end amp is about sound quality at any volume level. You're not getting quality sound using an AVR, cheap cables and God knows what source.. Invest that money in a quality amp, pre amp, source and cables.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
A high end amp is about sound quality at any volume level. You're not getting quality sound using an AVR, cheap cables and God knows what source.. Invest that money in a quality amp, pre amp, source and cables.
I've actually spent a little bit of time today trying to figure out why what you're saying would be true. I'm not saying you're not right, but am wondering if you could explain why, or how?
I have been considering getting an amp to push my Polk setup, so started researching. From what I can tell there's two reasons people get dedicated amps:
1. Louder audio. Ok. I get this and it's simple to figure out how that happens. More watts, louder audio without distortion. Great!
2. It sounds better at any volume level. This is where I am having a hard time confirming this to be true. I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-53 AVR. It's spec'd at 110 WPC, but bench tested to put out 81 watts when driving 7 channels (what I'm doing). That basically has me putting out somewhere around 88 decibels, at the listening position, when supplying only 1 watt of power to my speakers. 10 watts going to the speakers put it around 98 decibels. The full 81 watts has me sitting at about 108 decibels. I would never listen to my set up at that level. I honestly would never listen to it at 88 decibels (1 watt of power). So, I'm using less than 1 watt of power at any given time when watching/listening to my setup.
Now, what is it about adding an amp that is going to provide any real world sound quality improvements. Adding an amp to get louder undistorted audio make sense, but I cannot figure out how adding an amp, and not using it to gain louder audio, is achieving anything at all.
I'll likely buy an amp if I can find out how it offers any improvement for my needs. But I'm not going to drink the cool-aid because of some wide-spread placebo effect. I really am interested in the idea, but no one seems to be able to answer the question about "how" an amp using 1 watt of power offers any real world improvement over what I'm using now.
Any input would be appreciated!Samsung 65" ES8000 LED
Pioneer Elite VSX-53
Polk RTiA5's - Front Towers
Polk CSiA6 - Center Channel
Polk RT15i's - Side Surrounds
Polk FXiA4's - Rear Surrounds
SVS PB-1000 - Subwoofer
URC MX5000 - Remote -
Its all about the quality of tone, low distortion amps can still sound rough
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The placebo effect gets applied to all audiophiles, but the real reason is that we know how and what to listen for. Any component imparts its own effect on the sound, and ignoring any component has the potential to bring the entire system down to that components level. There are a multitude of changes an amp can make to a system and providing a sole example or reason is insufficient.
2 channel is fun because all you have is the music, and each piece of the presentation is much more evident - things like soundstage width, depth, micro details, how holographic the sound is, decay... All just the tip of the iceberg.
Thanks for your response DSkip, but that basically further makes me believe that there's no discernible difference when adding an amp and not using the extra wattage that it provides. If it takes an audiophile to hear the difference, then it must be a pretty small difference and not something that a non-audiophile would be able to hear. This, at least to me, means that all these claims by non-audiophiles are the placebo effect at its best. I just can't see how these claims that the speakers "really come to life" after adding an amp is real. Using a dedicated amp to push 200 watts to these speakers makes sense, but using 1 watt of power out of a dedicated amp cannot provide these drastic changes that people claim. That must be true especially for non-audiophiles where most these massive improvements are reported. Am I missing something here?Samsung 65" ES8000 LED
Pioneer Elite VSX-53
Polk RTiA5's - Front Towers
Polk CSiA6 - Center Channel
Polk RT15i's - Side Surrounds
Polk FXiA4's - Rear Surrounds
SVS PB-1000 - Subwoofer
URC MX5000 - Remote -
Much to learn you have, young Padawan.
It's about quality not quantity. There are amps out there that put out fewer than 10 watts that will blow your AVR away.
I have only one suggestion:
Stop reading stuff on the internet. Find a good deal on a quality used amp and buy it. Put it in your system. Listen to it with YOUR ears and see how appreciable the difference is to YOU. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, and you won't know your stance on the topic until you try it. Period.
If you want to take the easy way out and convince yourself that amps don't make a difference without ever trying it for yourself then you don't get what this hobby is about.
Get an amp. Give it whirl.
Congrats on the 703's btw, i LOVE those speakers! ...and they do deserve better than an AVR 2-Channel: PC > Schiit Eitr > Audio Research DAC-8 > Audio Research LS-26 > Pass Labs X-250.5 > Magnepan 3.7's
Living Room: PC > Marantz AV-7703 > Emotiva XPA-5 > Sonus Faber Liuto Towers, Sonus Faber Liuto Center, Sonus Faber Liuto Bookshelves > Dual SVS PC12-Pluses
Office: Phone/Tablet > AudioEngine B1 > McIntosh D100 > Bryston 4B-ST > Polk Audio LSiM-703's -
Now, what is it about adding an amp that is going to provide any real world sound quality improvements. Adding an amp to get louder undistorted audio make sense, but I cannot figure out how adding an amp, and not using it to gain louder audio, is achieving anything at all....<Snip>.... Adding an amp to get louder undistorted audio make sense, but I cannot figure out how adding an amp, and not using it to gain louder audio, is achieving anything at all.
Hello, Jestered. Good question. I used to wonder the same thing until I went into the separate amp route years ago. The best way to explain this would be that when you get a well chosen higher quality amplifier [as opposed to an AVR], the sound gets better across the entire volume spectrum. For example, with an AVR, you listen at lower volumes and the lower registers are not very prevalent. Yes, you may have a system to where you can "hear" something trying to be reproduced in the lower registers but you will definitely not hear them....let alone feel them with any sense of weight or authority. You usually have to turn it up to reasonable listening levels or higher in order for the lower registers to be worthy of enjoying across the entire frequency range.
Listening at lower volume levels with a well chosen amp is as much a pleasure as it is listening at higher volume levels and there is no need to turn it up to enjoy the entire frequency range. Adding a well chosen amp can bring a better sound stage, imaging, depth, impact, detail, decay and a plethora of other things that you didn't even know could exist.....simply because you haven't heard what is possible. The best thing is what you don't hear. Lowering a noise floor with a well chosen amp can reveal things that were previously masked by unwanted artifacts. This brings you closer to the music than before and reveals things within the music [at low and high volume levels, mind you] that you never really knew existed before.
This makes listening pleasure that much more enjoyable. When you want to hear ALL of the music, you do not need to turn it up. Just turn it on and enjoy. With that said, with a well chosen amp, when the time comes to turn it up? Everything that you experienced with a lower listening level remains the same without experiencing any sound stage collapse, imaging blending or loss of coherency. One other thing, with a well chosen amp, you do not have to strain to hear things. Whether it be in an HT system or a 2-channel system and you will find this out after the install of a good amp. At the higher volume levels and with the well chosen amp, the lower registers get faster, less bloated, have more impact and present a more realistic reproduction of the source than one would ever think possible if their only exposure has been with any AVR....regardless of price, build, bi-amp capability or topology.
Just for your knowledge, I have had an 8 watt tube amp outperform [in spades] all of the AVR's that have come and gone throughout the years. It wasn't any placebo effect, it was actually a surprise....and a pleasant one at that. While I could have typed all of my thoughts on this subject, I really do not feel like sitting down at this computer for another hour or two so please just accept this post as one that hits the "real world" - most relevant points - of why one would want a well chosen amp. I hope this answers your inquiry.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
falconcry72 wrote: »Much to learn you have, young Padawan.
It's about quality not quantity. There are amps out there that put out fewer than 10 watts that will blow your AVR away.
I have only one suggestion:
Stop reading stuff on the internet. Find a good deal on a quality used amp and buy it. Put it in your system. Listen to it with YOUR ears and see how appreciable the difference is to YOU. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, and you won't know your stance on the topic until you try it. Period.
If you want to take the easy way out and convince yourself that amps don't make a difference without ever trying it for yourself then you don't get what this hobby is about.
Get an amp. Give it whirl.
Congrats on the 703's btw, i LOVE those speakers! ...and they do deserve better than an AVR
Ah thanks I'll def give it a whirl.If no improvement is noticed,at least I won't regret the 'what ifs'.As for people saying that certain things could be a placebo.Even if that was the reality, as long as your mind perceives it, it is real.So even a placebo is a upgrade LOL. -
There's nothing placebo about it and anyone that thinks that is either deaf, inexperienced or simply a moron.
The power supply is key and as you found out from your bench test, your AVR's is lacking. In addition, your premise that 1 watt is 1 watt is flawed. All watts are not created equal. Treitz3 did a pretty good job explaining it.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Tom- That's all good information. Thanks for sharing. But, I'm still trying to find the answer to "how"? I've been told by many people what a dedicated amp will do, but no one has given any answer to "how" this is achieved.
Let me preface the following by saying that I'm not trying to piss off a lot of people here by telling you that you're wrong. I'm trying to get an answer to how this is achieved because my basic knowledge of electronics and physics says there's no difference. Well, not in all cases, but it appears to be the case with my setup and needs. I really could care less if any of you use an amp or not. That's your decision to make and if it works for you, then great! I'm trying to get this question answered so it will help me in the decision of whether or not I would gain anything by adding a dedicated amp. That's all.
In my case I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-53 and the bench tests I've found show that it did very well. Not perfect, but close to it. Here's the summary of the tests and the link to the full results follow:
"Pioneers VSX-52 aced most every test-bench requirement. Beginning with output power, it easily bettered its 110-watt specs, maintaining an impressive 80-plus watts even into 7 channels. (And the Pioneer did so without drawing down the AC line as heavily as most amps or receivers do.)
Nearly everything else measured excellently PCM signal/noise was virtually perfect with two exceptions. Our dithered fade-to-noise noise-modulation test revealed a noise increase of 2 dB at the transition from 72 to 73 dBFS, suggesting a bit error or component-value problem in the D/A conversion or current-to-voltage circuitry. (I tried my best to hear this on headphones via David Ranadas noise-mod listening tracks but could not hear any repeatable effects to my satisfaction.) Second, subwoofer-output distortion under 6-channel, full-scale stress was high at 7% (though the audibility of even this level at 31 Hz is still debatable). However, this isnt terribly real world, and since 2-channel excitation at the same levels and frequency showed no sign of incipient clipping, I would not give it much weight."
The full test results can be found here if you're interested:
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/test-report-pioneer-elite-vsx-52-av-receiver-page-4
I've already said that I'm not looking for louder audio, so the amp I was looking at was the Emotiva UPA-500, which is an 80WPC amp. That's the same real-world WPC that I'm getting out of the Pioneer, so I'm fine with that. If you look at the bench tests that were performed on my AVR model, and compare that to the specs on the Emotiva amp, they are very close to each other. They are both very clean with little distortion. So, with my AVR, and the Emotiva amp, what is it about the amp that is going to make my speakers "come to life"?
The power is the same, the distortion and everything else appears to be comparable, so I can't figure out how anything is really going to change by adding this amp.
A few other things... I'm not a deaf or a moron, so that's not it. Also, all watts are created equal. A watt is simply a unit measurement. A watt is the measurement of one joule of energy per second. If that changes in any way, it's not a watt any longer. Saying all watts are not created equal is like saying all inches are not created equal. I know I'm being very literal here, but that's what I'm looking for here. A literal scientific answer as to how a dedicated amp, that has the same specs as my AVR, is going to make any difference. Where is this drastic change supposed to come from?
The real important thing here is the frequency being sent to the speakers. That's where the good stuff is created and output from the speaker, right? So, is there something about a dedicated amp that handles the frequency of what's being sent differently? This is where I hit another road-block. Even if it did handle the frequency differently, what is it doing? If it's changing the frequency, that's not going to make it sound better, just different. That also means that either the AVR or the amp is producing an inaccurate frequency, which causes the speaker to output inaccurate audio compared to what the source intended. Either way, that's not going to make anything sound better, just different. Unless of course whichever device is modifying the source frequency is so far off that it just sounds horrible. I don't think that is the case, or no one would own these Pioneer Elite receivers.
So finally, again, what is it about sending 1 watt from this Emotiva amp is going to sound any different from 1 watt coming from my AVR? They both spec out nicely and comparably, so where's this big change supposed to come from?
I'm trying to look at and discuss this from a physics view point, not "just because". I am not claiming to know everything about any of this, but the little I do know says nothing will change. At least with the equipment I've referenced here. You can tell me that 1+1=10 all day long, but I know for a fact that's not true. That doesn't mean I'm not missing part of the equation. Am I missing the part of the equation that would scientifically equal 10? That's what I'm looking for. What part of the equation am I missing? That's all I'm asking.
And if I were trying to convince myself that my AVR is all I need, I would have stopped a long time ago. On the contrary I'm trying to do everything I can to get an answer that is not "just because" so I can purchase an amp and enjoy all the audio bliss that everyone else here claims. But I don't want to do that based on something that can't be backed up with factual evidence.Samsung 65" ES8000 LED
Pioneer Elite VSX-53
Polk RTiA5's - Front Towers
Polk CSiA6 - Center Channel
Polk RT15i's - Side Surrounds
Polk FXiA4's - Rear Surrounds
SVS PB-1000 - Subwoofer
URC MX5000 - Remote -
A wise man once said this...
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not"
Numbers are just that. Numbers. You can't listen to them.
BTW, you don't have to go out and buy a dedicated amp. Just listen to a well chosen one and decide......let me rephrase that. Let your EARS decide whether or not the empirical evidence suggests correctly. Does it really matter "how"? It sure doesn't to me. I can't hear the numbers but I damn sure do enjoy the music!
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I already gave you the answer, "The power supply is key and as you found out from your bench test, your AVR's is lacking." And NO, all watts are not created equal, but as long as you're hung up on specs, you'll never know that.
How about instead of asking for proof, you just buy an amp and find out for yourself like the rest of us? Geesh!Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Lets make it simple:
Take a Wal-Mart guitar, amp, and lamp cord and put it in a crappy room along with a crappy drum set. How well do you think the band will sound?2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
Thanks for your response DSkip, but that basically further makes me believe that there's no discernible difference when adding an amp and not using the extra wattage that it provides. If it takes an audiophile to hear the difference, then it must be a pretty small difference and not something that a non-audiophile would be able to hear. This, at least to me, means that all these claims by non-audiophiles are the placebo effect at its best. I just can't see how these claims that the speakers "really come to life" after adding an amp is real. Using a dedicated amp to push 200 watts to these speakers makes sense, but using 1 watt of power out of a dedicated amp cannot provide these drastic changes that people claim. That must be true especially for non-audiophiles where most these massive improvements are reported. Am I missing something here?
You are missing everything actually...
A watt is not always a watt. I too have a Pioneer Elite, but to power my mains, I have roughly 400 watts of tube power. My first real experience with external amps was with a Carver TFM 35 through a Yamaha AVR. My jaw dropped at the improvement in sound. The difference was in no was subtle. All AVR's, including the best of the best, are an exercise in compromise, just to get everything inside the box. Smaller power supplies, miniaturized everything else, and parts costs reduced to the bare minimums all produce subtle but very audible differences in sound quality.
All you need to do is visit Ebay and grab up a 250 wpc quality external amp and plug it in to hear the difference for yourself.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
I've already said that I'm not looking for louder audio, so the amp I was looking at was the Emotiva UPA-500, which is an 80WPC amp. That's the same real-world WPC that I'm getting out of the Pioneer, so I'm fine with that. If you look at the bench tests that were performed on my AVR model, and compare that to the specs on the Emotiva amp, they are very close to each other. They are both very clean with little distortion. So, with my AVR, and the Emotiva amp, what is it about the amp that is going to make my speakers "come to life"?
The power is the same, the distortion and everything else appears to be comparable, so I can't figure out how anything is really going to change by adding this amp.
In this case, I would stay with the AVR and save your money. You will not see any improvement given the information you provided above. I would suggest getting something with al least 200wpc on tap. Denon, Rotel, Parasound and others come to mind here. Emo is fine too, just not my cup of tea, and not the way I would go with my 703's.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
F1nut- You didn't answer anything. "The amp" is your answer. What about the amp? I've already shown it's putting out the same clean undistorted wattage using either. So what is it that's different? Never mind. I don't need an answer.
Tom- I appreciate your responses. I didn't get the answer I was hoping, but at least you provided some good information without the need to feel like you had to get all worked up about it.
I'll move on. It's a shame. I thought this Polk forum was a little different, but apparently not. The same "agree with the masses and don't question us or else" attitude that every other forum has.Samsung 65" ES8000 LED
Pioneer Elite VSX-53
Polk RTiA5's - Front Towers
Polk CSiA6 - Center Channel
Polk RT15i's - Side Surrounds
Polk FXiA4's - Rear Surrounds
SVS PB-1000 - Subwoofer
URC MX5000 - Remote -
nooshinjohn wrote: »In this case, I would stay with the AVR and save your money.
That is the logical conclusion I was coming to. I was hoping someone could explain how it's actually different, but... Thanks for the response.Samsung 65" ES8000 LED
Pioneer Elite VSX-53
Polk RTiA5's - Front Towers
Polk CSiA6 - Center Channel
Polk RT15i's - Side Surrounds
Polk FXiA4's - Rear Surrounds
SVS PB-1000 - Subwoofer
URC MX5000 - Remote -
Your last post was over the top sir...F1nut- You didn't answer anything. "The amp" is your answer. What about the amp? I've already shown it's putting out the same clean undistorted wattage using either. So what is it that's different? Never mind. I don't need an answer.
Tom- I appreciate your responses. I didn't get the answer I was hoping, but at least you provided some good information without the need to feel like you had to get all worked up about it.
I'll move on. It's a shame. I thought this Polk forum was a little different, but apparently not. The same "agree with the masses and don't question us or else" attitude that every other forum has.
The reason why an amp is better than an AVR is because of a more pure signal path. There is less interference between the source and the speaker. The amp can have a larger power supply and more robust energy storage, meaning that when the speaker demands current, the amp, with a larger power supply and the capacitance to deliver it, will out-perform the AVR even at modest levels.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
That is the logical conclusion I was coming to. I was hoping someone could explain how it's actually different, but... Thanks for the response.
You will need to look at better amps if you want to hear what having a good amp will do they absolutely do make a difference.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
The best advice I can offer you is to really, really try to borrow a good amp [a Carver TFM-35 will do, nothing extravagant really needed for this] and just listen at low volume [or your normal volume] and come back and tell us what you observed. Don't come up with excuses on why you can't get this done. If you are on other forums, there has GOT to be someone near you or someone willing to drive to your house to let you get your ear on. All I'm suggesting is that you put forth your best effort and try.
If you do follow this advice, you can thank me later. If you don't, then you might as well consider this discussion mute. Numbers won't tell you how something sounds and nothing we say will ever change that fact. Either way, happy listening. Oh, and you do not have to be an audiophile to hear the difference. Far from it in fact.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
F1nut- You didn't answer anything. "The amp" is your answer. What about the amp? I've already shown it's putting out the same clean undistorted wattage using either. So what is it that's different? Never mind. I don't need an answer.
The POWER SUPPLY is the answer that you keep ignoring. Your AVR can only put out 80wpc with 7 channels driven and will choke trying to drive 4 ohm loads, which all indicate the power supply is lacking. The reason it's lacking is an AVR is a compromise. A dedicated 7 channel amp rated at your 110wpc (2 channels driven) AVR will deliver 110wpc all channels driven and if it's one of the better 7 channel amps it will double down into 4 ohm loads. All of that tranlates into the capable ability to delivery superior sound at low volume levels (1 watt), with more detail, clarity, finesse, bass control, more precise imaging, a bigger sound stage, with shimmering highs and lush mids.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
To the OP-
It's been a long time since I studied physics, yet- I am still confident that gravity exists and will work to pull me back to earth if I jump. I don't lose sleep over not understanding every detail or mathematical equation which points to such actions being true. Never a doubt each and every time.
IF you really want to understand the scientific part of the equation then it's up to you to follow a path to an EE degree or something along those lines. It would be rather absurd to only study the results of testing without ever listening to music, (not test tones) thru various amplification devices.
There on many on this board who can explain their position and reasoning better than I, but why should anyone if your mind is already made up and the bias you bring leaves no flexibility to accept answers that require more than the mere examination of the testing result numbers? If you are open to at least listening to your system thru a loaner amp then post your location and it would be likely that a board member would be willing to bring an amp for you to try. If you are within 2 hrs of me, I'd be happy to bring a couple of amps over for you to hear for yourself.2-ch System: Parasound P/LD 2000 pre, Parasound HCA-1000 amp, Parasound T/DQ Tuner, Phase Technology PC-100 Tower speakers, Technics SL-1600 Turntable, Denon 2910 SACD/CD player, Peachtree DAC iT and X1asynchorus USB converter, HSU VTF-3 subwoofer. -
2. It sounds better at any volume level. This is where I am having a hard time confirming this to be true. I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-53 AVR. It's spec'd at 110 WPC, but bench tested to put out 81 watts when driving 7 channels (what I'm doing). That basically has me putting out somewhere around 88 decibels, at the listening position, when supplying only 1 watt of power to my speakers. 10 watts going to the speakers put it around 98 decibels. The full 81 watts has me sitting at about 108 decibels. I would never listen to my set up at that level. I honestly would never listen to it at 88 decibels (1 watt of power). So, I'm using less than 1 watt of power at any given time when watching/listening to my setup.
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At what frequency was this bench test performed? Did they also measure for power supply sag? Was it 1KHz test tones or 20Hz to 20KHz test tones? In the real world of audio, frequencies vary in music, the range depends on what type music you listen to. IF the bench test was performed at 1KHz, you can expect a 30-40% drop in output at 20KHz.
Transients is another key word. That's where a collection of sounds will require much more wattage to produce faithfully. The higher the headroom of the amp, the better quality the sound at lower to higher volume levels when these transients occur.
Ain't no kool aid to drink; fact is an amp with reserve greater than you'll ever use will sound better than an amp that runs out of current.
Some reading, more out there.
http://www.meyersound.com/support/papers/amp_power.htmSalk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
Don't forget go upgrade your power cord, interconnect cables, and speaker cables to get the best sound out of your watts.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
I think we're getting a second serving of Ravioli!
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OP gets it, the other guy dont want to get it or is just a troll.Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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