power cord burn-in question

WLDock

I just had a thought......what if one were to bypass the external power cord all together? What if one took the wire from the wall and soldered it directly to the PCB of the amp? The direct path does not get any better than this....now this sounds more interesting to me than a $1000 power cable. If I were in the position to have a VERY high end system and I was in the expensive cables sound better camp...I would minimize the amount of connectors/terminals in the chain. I would experiment with updating the transformer, the panel, the wire would come in direct to the PCBs of the amps, my speaker wire would be soldered direct to the amps PCB. The crossovers would be point to point, the wire would be soldered direct to the speaker leads....all in effect to better signal flow.

I am sure this has been discussed but I just don't get the $1000 power cord if the house wire if left the same and connectors and terminals are not minimized. As we all know...just cleaning off terminals can make a difference.

Obsession18

WLDock wrote: »

I would really love to hear this world of difference one day. As I stated, I completely shied away from high end audio because I thought one needed a $20K-$50K+ rig to even began to hear any difference in expensive cables, isolators, cable lifters, ....the blue dots, the green markers on CD. s, etc, etc,

Still, a $1000 POWER CORD?

"The Python CX benefits from a massive array of 280 conductors culled from Shunyata's CDA 101 copper. The conductors are wound into a dual counter rotating Helix geometry that has been proven to reduce the effects of radiated noise and internal, unwanted reflections. The Python CX's massive conductor compliment is capable of delivering over 30 amps of current to even the most current hungry amplifier or powered speaker. Terminations are Shunyata's own, optimized SR-ZP AC and IEC connectors. Finally, the Python CX undergoes Shunyata's exclusive Alpha Cryogenic conductor treatment processes before being finished and ready for application!"

The high manufacturers want you to think you have to spend $20K-$50K+ for a decent rig, not the case. Keep in mind there is a lot of SNAKE OIL in the high end audio business. I’ve been to several Audio shows and listened to crazy expensive systems that I was quite frankly disappointed in, maybe it was the room acoustics. The most important component in any system is first speakers, followed by source equipment (CD player, turntable, etc).

As for power cords this is quite funny:

Finally, the Python CX undergoes Shunyata's exclusive Alpha Cryogenic conductor treatment processes before being finished and ready for application!"

Cryogenic treatment, really this is SNAKE OIL beyond compare. Now if you could keep and operate the cable at these supposed cryogenic temps - well you might be on to something.

bthogan

BlueFox wrote: »

I started with Shunyata Venom cords on my amps, and it made me wonder that if a $100 cable can make this big an improvement then what do their $1000 cables do. So, I upgraded to Python CX cables, and haven't looked back. The only thing I will suggest is to try a Ztron cable in place of the Venom. There is a world of difference.

That's what I'm afraid of! Thanks for suggestions. The rabbit hole has consumed a fair amount of earnings this past year (and worth it all btw)...it'll be a season or two before I can start thinking about more cords. But I definitely want to give my McCormack the best I can afford. I've put a lot into it and it gives me much joy.

tonyb

The Venom cords are pretty good for 100 bucks, the range of quality cords under 2 bones is pretty extensive. Your McCormack and your pre should have something other than stock cords on them, they deserve it....seriously.

PolkieMan

See that's what they are hoping for.:razz: You want to give them the best you can afford. One thing about it if you buy a good one you will always have it.

bthogan wrote: »

That's what I'm afraid of! Thanks for suggestions. The rabbit hole has consumed a fair amount of earnings this past year (and worth it all btw)...it'll be a season or two before I can start thinking about more cords. But I definitely want to give my McCormack the best I can afford. I've put a lot into it and it gives me much joy.

BlueFox

bthogan wrote: »

That's what I'm afraid of! Thanks for suggestions. The rabbit hole has consumed a fair amount of earnings this past year (and worth it all btw)...it'll be a season or two before I can start thinking about more cords. But I definitely want to give my McCormack the best I can afford. I've put a lot into it and it gives me much joy.

I have come to the point where I realize a dedicated power line, power cords, and inter-connect cables are the foundation of your system. Once your foundation is solid you can upgrade gear and know that is working at its best right from the start. You really are right about the joy your gear can provide. As I upgraded cables over the last year or so I was continually amazed at the music I was able to get from my modest gear with each change. It really does provide a lot of pleasure, and for me is worth the money. Enjoy.

Bob in WI

The mega venom python power cord will really knock your socks off. You'll have to wait; I already have a deposit in at only $1500/ foot! A bargain at any price. They are mining the copper now.

Bob in WI

yipee

NFonseca

Doesn't audio equipment use electricity? I would suspect that simply using your equipment would "burn in" the cable with time.

DarqueKnight

WLDock wrote: »

Still, a $1000 POWER CORD?

WLDock wrote: »

I just had a thought......what if one were to bypass the external power cord all together? What if one took the wire from the wall and soldered it directly to the PCB of the amp? The direct path does not get any better than this....now this sounds more interesting to me than a $1000 power cable.

A direct connection would not address the issue of removing noise from the power signal. Dirty electric power is good enough for household appliances. It is not suitable for high performance audio and video electronics.

WLDock wrote: »

I am sure this has been discussed but I just don't get the $1000 power cord if the house wire if left the same and connectors and terminals are not minimized. As we all know...just cleaning off terminals can make a difference.

The way you are ranting about $1000 power cords leads me to believe that you think that all good power cords cost that much. No one here has said you have to spend that much to get a good aftermarket power cord. Power cords are like any other merchandise: there are different levels of quality and performance and different levels of price.

WLDock wrote: »

Its hard for me to understand how a few feet of $1000 power cable can make a difference when there is basic building THHN-TFFN Wire that cost $50 for a 500 ft roll run in the wall? How is the expensive cable going to overcome the standard residential wiring?

Can you understand how a few inches of an expensive water filter can improve the taste and quality of water after it has passed through miles and miles of cheap municipal water system piping? Better power cords actually reduce noise in the power signal coming out of the wall and shield against environmental noise getting into the power signal.

NFonseca wrote: »

Doesn't audio equipment use electricity? I would suspect that simply using your equipment would "burn in" the cable with time.

Burn in for cables involves conditioning (stressing) the insulation (dielectric) so that it won't store and release energy into the signal. A fair amount of conditioning can be achieved with normal use. Properly conditioning of cable insulation requires power levels far above that which is encountered in typical use. This is particularly true for source components and preamplifiers that do not draw much current.

Inspector 24

Darque, someone said you had electrical measurements of cables before and after burn in, I searched but didn't have much luck finding your posts, could you point me towards them, I'm definitely interested to read them.

Thanks!

bthogan

tonyb wrote: »

The Venom cords are pretty good for 100 bucks, the range of quality cords under 2 bones is pretty extensive. Your McCormack and your pre should have something other than stock cords on them, they deserve it....seriously.

Oh I love my Adcom too. When funds permit, I'd like to put good aftermarket cords on all 3 components. One of my problems is that my equipment is far enough away from outlets (I give the amp its own outlet) that I need the Venom extension cord, too. $$$.

I've got a few Quail jellyfish (10 ft. version) that I want to put on the pre and cdp, just for kicks and curiosity. $10 a pop. Gonna burn 'em in once I get the Venom off of the A/C.

BlueFox

bthogan wrote: »

Oh I love my Adcom too. When funds permit, I'd like to put good aftermarket cords on all 3 components. One of my problems is that my equipment is far enough away from outlets (I give the amp its own outlet) that I need the Venom extension cord, too. $$$.

Let me help spend your money. :biggrin:

It sounds like you need a power conditioner, and that is another Shunyata specialty. Get a Hydra AV and you need only one long cord to get to your rack. Then you can use standard length cords from the AV to each piece of gear. The AV has eight outlets, so that should be enough. I recently added one to my HT and it really improved over the Panamax I was using. Also, Shunyata conditioners do not limit current so you can plug your amp into it also, and now it will benefit from cleaner power.

DarqueKnight

Inspector 24 wrote: »

Darque, someone said you had electrical measurements of cables before and after burn in, I searched but didn't have much luck finding your posts, could you point me towards them, I'm definitely interested to read them.

Thanks!

My ancient technical threads, like other ancient forum threads, are best found with Google rather than the forum search engine.


Home-Cookin-The-Audiodharma-Cable-Cooker


The reference section in the second post of the following thread has links to my threads on power cable tests.

Studies-On-Residential-Power-Line-Noise-Part-10-PS-Audio-P10-AC-Regenerator

WLDock

DarqueKnight wrote: »

A direct connection would not address the issue of removing noise from the power signal. Dirty electric power is good enough for household appliances. It is not suitable for high performance audio and video electronics.

This is where I draw issue with so called "high performance" audio and video equipment. Are all void of a twisted wire power cable and AC line filtering? I find it interesting how Krell talks about their power supply and how well it isolated the AC power from the DC power supplies. Yet, they still want to sell you an improved power cord: http://www.krellonline.com/vectorhc.html - Why is this not included in the already steep price of their amps? I guess they want to benefit from the upgrade game just the same as everyone else. Yet, I think I have a valid question.

DarqueKnight wrote: »

The way you are ranting about $1000 power cords leads me to believe that you think that all good power cords cost that much. No one here has said you have to spend that much to get a good aftermarket power cord. Power cords are like any other merchandise: there are different levels of quality and performance and different levels of price.

Read my post further back...I stated I get changing out the OEM plug on some products as the manufacturer will use the most basic cord that meets safety certification in order to keep costs low. One can make a 12 AGW or 10 AGW cord for $35-$100 so I can see spending $100-$200 for pre-made cables. However, BlueFox mentioned that the $1000 cord made a night and day difference and I was just stating that I had a hard time getting my head around a cord that cost this much and why it is needed. IMO, $100 on a cord and $900 on a line conditioner would seem like money better spent? I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from given all of the scientific test that you have done. I'm sure you had the same questions and doubt before you actually had high end gear in your possession and actually performed your own tests.

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Can you understand how a few inches of an expensive water filter can improve the taste and quality of water after it has passed through miles and miles of cheap municipal water system piping? Better power cords actually reduce noise in the power signal coming out of the wall and shield against environmental noise getting into the power signal.

I get noise filtering and shielding....I work in tech support/applications for solar inverters. I've seen the problems dirty line voltage can have on power electronics....even the new smart meters that have low frequency signals are causing problems. God forbid high performance audio equipment is connected......
...however my thinking is the same as above with the Krell analogy....why is this "high performance" noise filtering power cable not included with their "high performance" and 'high priced" amplifier? I would almost prefer that they don't include a power cable and reduce the cost to the consumer a few($25-$100) bucks and let the discerning audiophiles choose their own cable.

I know just enough about audio, electronics, music/performance, physics, to pursue high performance but not enough to dive in and accept all as word without asking question and having doubt. You guys that have tested and compared a ton of gear and cables should understand..everyone has to go through their own experience...and as we all know we all don't hear the same nor is our price to performance philosophy the same.

BlueFox

WLDock wrote: »

However, BlueFox mentioned that the $1000 cord made a night and day difference and I was just stating that I had a hard time getting my head around a cord that cost this much and why it is needed.

First, these power cords are hand-made in Seattle by Americans being paid a living wage. Second, they work. I have no problem with either concept.

As a side-note a Shunyata Ztron Cobra cost $1000, and I now have 6 of them. The Ztron Python costs $2000, and I have one, with two more on order, one for each Pass X600.5 amp. The Ztron Anaconda costs $3000, and I have one between the dedicated 20 amp line and the Shunyata Triton power conditioner. As I added each piece there was a corresponding increase in musical detail. I have been amazed at how much music I was able to get from my modest gear. As I have said before, I consider power and cables as the foundation of a stereo or HT. With a solid foundation, you can let your current gear work at its best, and be sure new gear will perform at its best right from the start.

IMO, $100 on a cord and $900 on a line conditioner would seem like money better spent?

Opinions without experience mean less than nothing.

DarqueKnight

WLDock wrote: »

This is where I draw issue with so called "high performance" audio and video equipment. Are all void of a twisted wire power cable and AC line filtering? I find it interesting how Krell talks about their power supply and how well it isolated the AC power from the DC power supplies. Yet, they still want to sell you an improved power cord: http://www.krellonline.com/vectorhc.html - Why is this not included in the already steep price of their amps? I guess they want to benefit from the upgrade game just the same as everyone else. Yet, I think I have a valid question.

Why don't automobile manufacturers include a set of high performance tires in the already steep price of their cars? For me tires, rims and batteries are throw away items in any car I buy because I have my own preferences in those areas. For most people, the stock tires, rims and batteries are fine. Other people (auto enthusiasts) will go further and add expensive suspension enhancements, high end brakes, expensive rims, ultra high performance tires, elaborate security systems and even improved computer engine control devices.

There is a thriving and lucrative market in aftermarket auto accessories. If these enhancements are so wonderful, why don't the auto manufacturers include them with the vehicles they sell?

Power cords are just one part of what should be a comprehensive program of power quality improvement. I use power cords of varying quality with a combination of dedicated AC circuits, passive power conditioners, AC regenerators, and audio grade fuses in the equipment. For moderate to high quality gear with moderate to high resolution, any and everything done to reduce electrical noise BEFORE it gets to a component's power supply helps.

Bear in mind that electrical noise is difficult to completely eliminate. If you read my review of the PS Audio P10 AC regenerator, you will find that, although it completely rebuilds the AC power and significantly reduces electrical noise, it does not completely eliminate it. If an AC regenerator costing several thousand dollars cannot completely eliminate AC line noise, how much more noise will the passive line filter in the power supply of a typical amplifier or source component pass?

WLDock wrote: »

Read my post further back...I stated I get changing out the OEM plug on some products as the manufacturer will use the most basic cord that meets safety certification in order to keep costs low. One can make a 12 AGW or 10 AGW cord for $35-$100 so I can see spending $100-$200 for pre-made cables. However, BlueFox mentioned that the $1000 cord made a night and day difference and I was just stating that I had a hard time getting my head around a cord that cost this much and why it is needed. IMO, $100 on a cord and $900 on a line conditioner would seem like money better spent? I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from given all of the scientific test that you have done. I'm sure you had the same questions and doubt before you actually had high end gear in your possession and actually performed your own tests.

As with anything, you have to use some common sense and reasoning when choosing accessories. I would not put a $1,000 power cord between the wall and a $500 amplifier. I do have a $1,200 PS Audio AC12 power cord between the wall and my Pass Labs X600.5 power amplifiers, each of which retail for $11,000.

I have a very basic audio/video system in my master bedroom. The very reasonably priced Signal Cable power cords used in that system are audibly better than the stock power cords, but they, and none of the higher quality power cords I tried, made a night and day difference. Power cords higher in quality than the Signal cords would be a waste of money in that system. An AC regenerator (PS Audio Power Plant Premier) in the master bedroom system made a more significant difference, but still not "night and day". The same model AC regenerator used with the source and preamplifier electronics in my much higher resolution two channel system did make a "night and day difference".

Power quality enhancements can significantly improve the spatial rendering performance of stereo systems. However, some people are not interested in improved spatial performance. For a person who is not interested in, or sensitive to, improvements in stereo performance, like imaging and other spatial properties, the improvements brought by power tweaks might be slight or imperceptible. The stock cords work fine for such people.

bthogan

BlueFox wrote: »

Let me help spend your money. :biggrin:

It sounds like you need a power conditioner, and that is another Shunyata specialty. Get a Hydra AV and you need only one long cord to get to your rack. Then you can use standard length cords from the AV to each piece of gear. The AV has eight outlets, so that should be enough. I recently added one to my HT and it really improved over the Panamax I was using. Also, Shunyata conditioners do not limit current so you can plug your amp into it also, and now it will benefit from cleaner power.

I believe that's the very conditioner that Mr. McCormack recommended to me, for the reason you mention (doesn't limit current).

DarqueKnight

BlueFox wrote: »

As a side-note a Shunyata Ztron Cobra cost $1000, and I now have 6 of them. The Ztron Python costs $2000, and I have one, with two more on order, one for each Pass X600.5 amp. The Ztron Anaconda costs $3000, and I have one between the dedicated 20 amp line and the Shunyata Triton power conditioner.

Do you know of any other hobby where people on the outside look at what advanced practitioners are doing and buying, and then erroneously claim that the advanced practitioners are advocating that everyone in the hobby, even new, inexperienced entrants, do and buy the same things?

I don't.

I mean, if I take up golf tomorrow, I have sense enough to know that my fledgling golf game is not going to benefit from a $20,000 set of clubs and an expensive golf club membership with a pro level course.

BlueFox

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Do you know of any other hobby where people on the outside look at what advanced practitioners are doing and buying, and then erroneously claim that the advanced practitioners are advocating that everyone in the hobby, even new, inexperienced entrants, do and buy the same things?

No. Even worse, with no idea what they are talking about, they will state that we are being fooled by these vendors, and any perceived improvement is psychological. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, I have to admit it wasn't long ago when I too had a hard time believing power cords could make a difference. Live and learn, as they say.

WLDock

BlueFox wrote: »

First, these power cords are hand-made in Seattle by Americans being paid a living wage. Second, they work. I have no problem with either concept.

As a side-note a Shunyata Ztron Cobra cost $1000, and I now have 6 of them. The Ztron Python costs $2000, and I have one, with two more on order, one for each Pass X600.5 amp. The Ztron Anaconda costs $3000, and I have one between the dedicated 20 amp line and the Shunyata Triton power conditioner. As I added each piece there was a corresponding increase in musical detail. I have been amazed at how much music I was able to get from my modest gear. As I have said before, I consider power and cables as the foundation of a stereo or HT. With a solid foundation, you can let your current gear work at its best, and be sure new gear will perform at its best right from the start. Opinions without experience mean less than nothing.

So, $11,000 in cables alone and another $4000 worth on the way? I guess my opinion about cables will never mean anything because I will never get to this level....I think this is why ages ago I left out of a high end audio store and never returned. I told myself that maybe in my 30's or 40's I would get there....still not there yet. Under 6 figure crowd...no shame.


Fox, if I'm ever in the Valley, can I come by and take a listen? You never know...I was out that way a couple of times years past as the co. I work for uses a warehouse in Hayward.

WLDock

Great points DK, you seem like a good one to follow. I will be reading through your posts.

halo71

BlueFox wrote: »

Opinions without experience mean less than nothing.

That is sig material there! :cool:

WLDock

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Do you know of any other hobby where people on the outside look at what advanced practitioners are doing and buying, and then erroneously claim that the advanced practitioners are advocating that everyone in the hobby, even new, inexperienced entrants, do and buy the same things?
I don't.
I mean, if I take up golf tomorrow, I have sense enough to know that my fledgling golf game is not going to benefit from a $20,000 set of clubs and an expensive golf club membership with a pro level course.

BlueFox wrote: »

No. Even worse, with no idea what they are talking about, they will state that we are being fooled by these vendors, and any perceived improvement is psychological. :rolleyes:
On the other hand, I have to admit it wasn't long ago when I too had a hard time believing power cords could make a difference. Live and learn, as they say.

Its great that you guys have been into the hobby for awhile and have invested a lot of time, money, research and consider yourselves advanced on the subject...I think thats great. However, don't discount someone else because they ask questions and have doubt about equipment and maybe don't have the means to buy $15,000 in wire. Don't get so caught up in gear and loose focus....


I know of some awsome musicians that have perfect pitch and amazing ears that don't have $20K-$50K rigs with thosand dollar cables. Don't presume to know all about an individual from a few comments posted on a forum on the internet. Myself, I've always had sensitive hearing and a natural sense of what sounds good and bad. Further, through playing music over the years have developed the ear training to listen to the fine nuances in music. I've performed in small Jazz Halls, Dance clubs, Historic theaters, Tv studio's, Radio studio's, recording studio's, churches, Large cathedrals in the US and in Europe, outdoor amphitheaters, outdoors at Disneyland, on a Cruise Ship, small Recital Hall, 2500 seat auditoriums 3500 seat auditoriums, 25,000 seat arena, 100,000+ seat stadiums, and many other places. I know a little something about sound, music, space, and the environment.... even if I haven't compared thousand+ dollar cables on a playback system thats worth more than the average person's car.

What constitutes experience? What makes a deep pocket self proclaimed audiophile's ears any better than a poor lifetime street musicians ears? How many here have a PhD in Acoustics, engineering, Physics combined with years of working experience in music plus an awesome portfolio? Is that what it takes to join the audiophile elite club?

I went to High School with a then newbie bass player that went on to become classiclally trained by the Principle Bassist with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra and jazz trained by local Detroit musicians, then on to an awesome jazz career. Now he's the Professor of Jazz Bass and Director of Jazz Studies at Michigan State University....He has no paper Degree in music...how did this happen? Because that same thing or synergy that proclaimed audiophiles hear that can't be measured is the same accelerated natural left brain development that all gifted musicians have that allows then to create music at a higher level of performance that just can't be taught in school to the average person. Great musicians create magic or synergy...but we all know all are not audiophiles!

Good ears and music talent are gifts nevertheless....not everyone has it. I think it takes some of both or at least an understanding combined with some science to even begin to go down the audiophile road. While some are throwing a ton of time and money at trying to recreate the "live" music experience at home, others are actually living it.

Don't discount a persons ability to know what sound good just because he questions expensive cables. Keep in mind that many recordings in your collections were recorded in studios that use cables that cost less than what's in your own rigs. No science or subjective opinions there...just facts.

You guys need to lighten up a bit.....so what someone questions your expensive cables....talk about what makes the cables so special....don't talk down about the poster. I'm not calling you an elitest experienced audiophile jerk. No harm No foul. I actually think we are all one in the same...we love music and the pursuit of excellent playback.

As I stated...I would actually like to test out $1k+ cables someday.

WLDock

BlueFox wrote: »

Opinions without experience mean less than nothing.

halo71 wrote: »

That is sig material there! :cool:

Wow Fox...pretty extreme thinking there...you really told me! :rolleyes: How much experience or how much coin must one spend before their opinions counts?

While experience and expensive high performing products are great...not questioning any of this. There is also logic and science involed in the R&D process to create a cable or line conditioner. IMO and 0 years experience testing $1K-$4K power cords.....the only things I know of gained with improving the AC power(From just a power input perspective...not talking about the final result in the sound just yet) is better: Noise filtering, reduction of voltage and current restrictions(low-inductance), power factor correction, and a clean sine wave free of transient spikes, etc.

So is a cable going to do all this? My logical unexperienced high dollar cable owner self says no? I think the quality of the Power supply in the amp is going to have more of an affect on the outcome. However, not all amps are the same in this regard...I do know that much.

Call me what you want, dismiss my comments, write me off... but you can't tell me that every high end amp out there has to have an expensive power cord to reach its max potential. I would think an amp with a great power supply would do just fine with some twisted cable 10-12 AWG solid THHN wire and a hospital grade outlet. Also, a capable power conditioner should be a part of the conversation if you really want to address the issues...

and as I see in your reply....a power conditioner is a part of the conversation. Come on man....even you stated that you went down the crazy road:

BlueFox wrote: »

Anyway, I could not leave well enough alone. Ever since I installed the cables my brain has been going “If these are so good then what in the world are the more expensive cables capable of doing.” This is a very dangerous thought process, and can lead to doing crazy things.

So now that you have your feet wet and found improvements with these expensive cables and currently on a roll to replacing all your cables with these....why is the logical opinion of others reduced to less than nothing? Maybe I have not walked the same walk but I do have a logical question. Even Shunyata Research talks about logic, measurments, and science. However, when someone else brings it up....it gets dismissed and "ears" and 'hear" are the words that come out.

Logic, Measurments, Science can = "ears" and "hear"

Just when you think you know more than others there is always someone more enlighntning. Be humble my friend...yet question everything. Somehow guys take offense to others questioning their high dollar cables....No offense intended..I get the modest price upgrades but its its just hard to understand the pricey upgrades and NOT belived in diminishing point of return. I'm sure you were in my shoes before? Right? No? So you were born to believe in $15K+ audio cable? LOL!

Aw man...you guys are too much. I will shut up now and continue to read more....I might even make it down to to the high end audio shop after a long hiatus....even looking forward to attending my first high end show.

ZLTFUL

Let me expand on BlueFox's comment,

Opinions without experience mean less than nothing.

Would you listen to the opinions and advice of someone who told you to listen to a particular kind of music when that person has readily admitted never having heard that particular type of music?
"You will love contemporary Bollywood music. In my opinion, it is the greatest music ever recorded."
"Really? How much contemporary Bollywood music have you listened to?"
"Me? None. But I know what musics is *supposed* to sound like."

I am not taking sides either way. I'm really not. But I am more apt to listen to someone like DarqueKnight who has years of experience swapping cables in and out. Who has loads of listening time along with scope time to investigate the effects certain changes (such as power cables) have on his system. Someone who spends not just the money but the time to thoroughly investigate these changes.
Versus someone who openly admits having no experience but outright dismisses those things as some type of elitisism.

Again, I am not taking sides but I would prefer to listen to the voice of experiences that have been publically posted with actual opinion and fact vs just opinion.

Just my humble opinion. :redface:

WLDock

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Do you know of any other hobby where people on the outside look at what advanced practitionars are doing and buying....

I had to repost this one....and twist it...

You know there are people with $25K-$100K systems that don't know a damn thing about critical listening nor what a euphonium is. Are these guys on the outside or are they advanced because they have expensive gear?

As far as you know I could have "Golden Ears" that rank with the best(I seriously doubt it by a WIDE margin ) yet a shoestring budget..and I get my audio kicks by listening to the high end systems of others, attend trade shows, audio society member, etc. Would I be on the outside or would I be an advanced practitioner?

Come on man...really?

We all know that the small underdog with his modest performance racing machine has taken down big dollar high perfonance teams. High dollar does not always equate to the "BEST" performance. It takes a combination of the "right" components to pull off a world class winning or in the case of audio...lifelike/real performance.

Its great that you are a member of the elite club. Maybe others have the heart and desire to get there but find obstacles along the way. Don't blow them off as non important outsiders because they question what the elite are doing and buying.....its a learned behavior.

OK, I'm done.....and I still think you have some great stuff posted from the quick things that I've read. I will continue to read more and follow your posts and works.

Respect my friend.

WLDock

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Let me expand on BlueFox's comment,
Would you listen to the opinions and advice of someone who told you to listen to a particular kind of music when that person has readily admitted never having heard that particular type of music?
"You will love contemporary Bollywood music. In my opinion, it is the greatest music ever recorded."
"Really? How much contemporary Bollywood music have you listened to?"
"Me? None. But I know what musics is *supposed* to sound like."

I am not taking sides either way. I'm really not. But I am more apt to listen to someone like DarqueKnight who has years of experience swapping cables in and out. Who has loads of listening time along with scope time to investigate the effects certain changes (such as power cables) have on his system. Someone who spends not just the money but the time to thoroughly investigate these changes.
Versus someone who openly admits having no experience but outright dismisses those things as some type of elitisism.

Again, I am not taking sides but I would prefer to listen to the voice of experiences that have been publically posted with actual opinion and fact vs just opinion.

Just my humble opinion. :redface:

HOLD UP!

My sole comment is that I can't wrap my head around a $1000 power cord plugged into a basic wall socket wired with basic wire. Also, I though an expensive amp would have a good enough power supply to clean up the AC. IF not then I stated I get the modest $100-$200 power cable upgrade because co.'s use cheap cables...and then maybe add in a line conditioner.

What the hell is wong with that for someone that has never owned a $2.5K-$10K amp but has an ear for listening and has listened to some very capable reference systems before? In my youth....I chose to chase SQ car audio than home audio because it was cheaper and I was more on the go.

I'm not new to audio but new to even caring or thinking about wanting to listen to what a $1000 power cable can do.

I never dismissed anything that DarqueKnight or BlueFox said. You guys are too defensive ....the attack you are talking about was not from me....but they naysayers you guys are so used to poping up.

Myself, I was giving my personal thoughts and rasing my own questions. Yes, I get the cable can act as a filter but there is still the house wire to deal with. Even without experience in high dollar wire....my logic say that before I spend big coin $1k+ on power wire...I would have a dedicated line run using high quality twisted solid core wire in the wall and replace the outlet with a hostpital grade product...then get the under $200 Venom power wire and maybe a line conditioner. In my unexperienced opinion that makes sense to me! I never asked a single sole to follow me.

If anything, I would have thought DarqueKnight or BlueFox would have said that they tried all these things and either don't waste your time or sounds like a good plan. NO, I get labeled as an unexperienced rebel without a cause and a worthy system to be of any importance. ...and this is not the firt time this has happend on this forum.

Its a two-way street....

Maybe the day that I get to hear a super detailed system and get a chance to actually compare wire on that system will I get to HEAR what guy are talking about. Until then....CHILL! The unexperienced have questions. Help us out and lift us up....don't knock us down...in the end....we admire the hell out of the systems you guys have put together. DarqueKnight system is crazy sick! Much respect for Nelson Pass!!! His stuff and Carver are the products I dreamed off waay back in the late 80's early 90's.......and I guess today as well. LOL!

Anyway, I hear what you are saying ZLTFUL....no respect taken from those guys....but some of us would like to be a part of the conversation and inject more than ooos ahhs. Without actual self experience....logic and the opinions of others is all we have.

BlueFox

WLDock wrote: »

Wow Fox...pretty extreme thinking there...you really told me! :rolleyes: How much experience or how much coin must one spend before their opinions counts?

You need to try something instead of yapping. So far, all you have done is try to justify your lack of doing anything with unrelated text.

Also, why did you make up a quote, and attribute it to me? That is one of the sleaziest moves around, and shows the writer has no dignity. When I get to work and can cut and paste it, I will add it. This is iPad's biggest weakness. The made up quote starts with "Anyway, I could not leave well enough alone....."


Edit. I was able to copy it. Good iPad.

Post 86:

"Anyway, I could not leave well enough alone. Ever since I installed the cables my brain has been going “If these are so good then what in the world are the more expensive cables capable of doing.” This is a very dangerous thought process, and can lead to doing crazy things."


IMO, making up quotes completely discredits the writer.

ZLTFUL

WLDock wrote: »

Anyway, I hear what you are saying ZLTFUL....no respect taken from those guys....but some of us would like to be a part of the conversation and inject more than ooos ahhs. Without actual self experience....logic and the opinions of others is all we have.

I honestly don't think you do though.
Without self experience, you have to rely on others' experiences but you aren't just questioning the why but the logic of the choices made.
Specifically, BlueFox made a decision to try out something and found it was better. Instead of asking "How do your experiences differ from that of the previous $**** power cord to the experiences with the new $XXXX power cord?"
You state that *you* find it hard to believe his choice to go with a more expensive power cable could make that much of a difference.

I am not defending anyone but I will defer to those with actual experience.

Let's take my own experiences as an example.
I love the look of Nordost's flat speaker cables. So much so that I *almost* bought them without listening to them first (Specifically the Freya model).
But I had no previous experience with these cables. So I looked at posts on forums all over the internet and then made arrangements to take my speakers to a local shop that carried these cables and actually experience them for myself.
I didn't go onto the forums and tell people that they were wrong or that they couldn't hear that much of a difference because I didn't have those experiences for myself.
I did ask some questions like, "How full is the top end with those cables?" or "Is the bass/mid-bass muddled at all with them?"
When I finally did get my ears on a pair of the cables, I could then make the choice based on my own experiences instead of relying on or dismissing the experiences of others.
(Incidentally, I thought they sucked...especially for a $1700 pair of cables)

You said it yourself, the music and how it sounds to *you* is all that matters.
If BlueFox or DaqueKnight or Jhayman or anyone else for that matter says that something they actually tried/did makes a difference in how their system sounds to them, then I am not going to begrudge them spending $XXXX on a power cable versus my DIY power cables.

Yes, you have a very valid argument with other possible items making a bigger difference in the power supply chain.
But you also assume that these folks haven't already made those changes.
But all they were doing were sharing their experiences within the topic of the thread.
Now if the thread had been questions about the whole circuit from "pole" to internal transformer then it would make sense to discuss those things.

But the question that was asked dealt with a very specific link in that chain...not the whole chain itself.