power cord burn-in question

lanchile

ignorance? I bet you can not hear the difference between two same power cords ,a new power cord to one used 200 hrs.or even see the difference on an oscilloscope. We are not talking about electrolytic caps here. We are talking about two same power cords...one new and the other "burned" or used 200 hrs...and Now you all can hear the difference in sound? common guys, be serious and do not let other people wash your brains!

I am out!:cool:

vmaxer

lanchile wrote: »

ignorance? I bet you can not hear the difference between two same power cords ,a new power cord to one used 200 hrs.or even see the difference on an oscilloscope. We are not talking about electrolytic caps here. We are talking about two same power cords...one new and the other "burned" or used 200 hrs...and Now you all can hear the difference in sound? common guys, be serious and do not let other people wash your brains!

I am out!:cool:

Well……...........




Bye!!!

dragon1952

lanchile wrote: »

ignorance? I bet you can not hear the difference between two same power cords ,a new power cord to one used 200 hrs.or even see the difference on an oscilloscope. We are not talking about electrolytic caps here. We are talking about two same power cords...one new and the other "burned" or used 200 hrs...and Now you all can hear the difference in sound? common guys, be serious and do not let other people wash your brains!

I am out!:cool:

Very original argument....thanks for the last (I hope) **** strewn on this thread ;^ )

Oh...and BTW, I never said what my position is on the subject except to point out that posts like yours are inappropriate, old and boring, immature, condescending, repetitious, unoriginal and a bunch of other semi-big words.

F1nut

if it reads good...it must be a Fluke!

You mean that used Fluke you JUST bought in April for $160.00 after asking a ton of questions as to which one to buy? I would have thought someone with all your electronics repair experience wouldn't have to ask others opinions on such matters. I know I didn't.

Inspector 24

F1nut wrote: »

While I firmly believe there is nothing better than the human ear for determining differences in audio related matters, forum member DarqueKnight has shown time and again that the process of burn in is real by posting scope readings clearly showing the differences.

I'm a bit of a non-believer in the cable burn in effect myself, because quite honestly it seems like voodoo magic and I've not expexperienced it myself...however, I do not argue with what one's perception of a sound is, whether it comes from their ears or their mind. In fact I'm quite fascinated with how and what different individuals do/don't hear.

That said I would be interested to see those tests, have you got a quick link handy?

F1nut

Take your pick, http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1994869

Habanero Monk

11tsteve wrote: »

the OP clearly states he does not wish to listen to the burn in and so is seeking an alternative route.

He also clearly states he has one burned in cable and the amp sounds great, and one non-burned in cable, which sounds horrible. So I am pretty sure there is no "burn in debate" for him.

So turn the volume down.... The issue that I pointed out is about when the cables are no longer burned in. Some people say that non-use can attribute, others I have seen say that moving them can attribute.

I'm not debating burn in itself. Simply pointing out the obvious that everyone here that listens to their system with any frequency has burned in cables. We all do.

Jhayman

I was like up until a few months ago, I came to CP with an attitude about power cables and how they don't do squat..
Well I argued with some very Intelligent members here and they showed me all kinds of proof but in the end I had few extra bucks kicking around so I decided to try one out, well I don't know about burn-in but I heard a definite improvement the moment I plugged it in to my amp..
I was actually floored by the change it made and I'm still at a loss of words to try to figure out how it did it..
All I know is I'm really impressed now by the wealth of knowledge here at CP..
I Thank them all this forum to me is the cats **** of informative members who actually know what they are talking about..
I am glad I came here and now learning so much from guys like F1nut, Ztlful and Bluefox, Pepster , DSkip and so many others Thank You

lanchile wrote: »

ignorance? I bet you can not hear the difference between two same power cords ,a new power cord to one used 200 hrs.or even see the difference on an oscilloscope. We are not talking about electrolytic caps here. We are talking about two same power cords...one new and the other "burned" or used 200 hrs...and Now you all can hear the difference in sound? common guys, be serious and do not let other people wash your brains!

I am out!:cool:

bthogan

Just wanted to update...I got the Shunyata burn-in cord, and put the Venom 3 on my air conditioner, which runs 24/7 in this weather. Cooked it for a couple of weeks. It's back on the amp, and sounds much much better than it did before. I'll probably leave it there, and stick the jelllyfish cords I picked up (thanks to this: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?146883-Quail-Powercords-aka-Jellyfish-power-cords) on the A/C for a couple of weeks, then put them on my pre and cdp.

And (as indicated) I have also gotten a wealth of advice, tips and other good stuff from this site.

tonyb

Jhayman wrote: »

but in the end I had few extra bucks kicking around so I decided to try one out, well I don't know about burn-in but I heard a definite improvement the moment I plugged it in to my amp..
I was actually floored by the change it made and I'm still at a loss of words to try to figure out how it did it..

......and that's all we ever ask people to do, just try it out. Doesn't mean it will be everyone's cup of tea either. Glad you at least tried and heard some benefits too. That's half the battle in these debates, people who try things out, and those who would rather read conflicting internet articles to form their opinions.

Obsession18

I believe most of the improvement people perceive with aftermarket power cables has to do with the shielding that keeps the local utilities 60Hz juice from inducing noise in other parts of their systems. One other possibility is that the original cable was not up to task from an ampacity standpoint (voltage drop under load) I find it hard to believe that a reputable amp manufacturer would provide a cable that is not up to task. It would be interesting to see if anyone could tell the difference between two of the exact same cables – one that is new and the other used for an extended period.

As for cable burn-in, I’m an electrical engineer that has worked as a planner for a major electric utility for 30 years. Part of my job is to know the behavior of various cables and their performance transmitting power, I have yet to come across anything that indicates aging improves the performance of cable.

tonyb

Do you LISTEN to any of those cables.....or just look at measurements on a scope ?

ZLTFUL

Obsession18 wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that a reputable amp manufacturer would provide a cable that is not up to task.

I wanted to key in on this part of your post...
It boils down to profit margin.
Yes, the stock power cable on most reputable manufacturers' products *will* get the job done.
But it is a compromise in cost/quality.
I always like to use my Pioneer Elite DV-47a as an example of a manufacturer using a quality cable in lieu of saving a few bucks. The stock power cable is 12ga OFC cable. Compared to what comes on some of their more budget entries from the same timeframe, which are 18ga and a far less "pure" copper.

I would argue that you are most likely not using a spool of RCA 18ga speaker cable to feed a signal to those Linbrooks...

Obsession18

ZLTFUL wrote: »

I wanted to key in on this part of your post...
It boils down to profit margin.
Yes, the stock power cable on most reputable manufacturers' products *will* get the job done.
But it is a compromise in cost/quality.
I always like to use my Pioneer Elite DV-47a as an example of a manufacturer using a quality cable in lieu of saving a few bucks. The stock power cable is 12ga OFC cable. Compared to what comes on some of their more budget entries from the same timeframe, which are 18ga and a far less "pure" copper.

I would argue that you are most likely not using a spool of RCA 18ga speaker cable to feed a signal to those Linbrooks...

You would be correct the Linbrooks get feed by Canare 4S11 (11ga), and I agree an 18ga power cable for a 200W plus power amp would not be up to task.

leftwinger57

Well I think you guys might dislike what my opinion of burning in power cords are.Firstly it is known that I still have not heard those vaunted SDA of any model or year and was basically taken by the hand and sat down (over the machine w/ Neal ,aka Nspindel) and tutored why people mod these speakers. My argument was if these were the be all end all speakers why mess w/ them.Well 1.time is hard on speakers in both in design and in general use wear and tear.The couple of anologies that can be used in the simplest forms are that there is always a better mouse trap and for same reason car guys mod their machines both for cosmetics and more importantly performance.The 2nd is closer on why most mod SDA and w/ improvent of cabinet deadening, x-over improvements and variety of other mods that bring out the best in again an already 1st rate speaker. Now,we come to boutique power cords. I am extremely skeptical about these cables.I think people who buy these have to hear a difference for the better to justify the expense of buying this cable.Me, would I consider buying these very expensive extension cords and where benifit would be gained more by a a.c.power conditioner /surge protectors.Again I have to go back now and deal w/ a bi-wire application. If I wanted those Vandersteen 2ce sigs the owner of the co. Mr Vandersteen himself implores that you do the bi-wire for a much better all around sound signature.Not endorsing any brand but saying you should do it. Back to the power cord.I think I would be VERY hardpressed to hear a difference. Changing brand of amplifier yes a power cord w/o a listen and just on maybe being frugal /cheap if I could afford it would I do it,I seriously doubt it.If you hear a difference to your liking and it was enough to justify the cost thenthis experimentworked for you.I know I jumped around a bit here but I wanted some comparisons in other areas of speakers and wire.I am certainly trying not to insult anyone.I just have my own serious doubts about this one cable catagory.

tonyb

Your certainly welcome to your opinion LW, but just like you couldn't understand the hoopla about SDA's until someone sat you down, the same applies to power cords. Opinions are great when based on experience and a little know how, however don't carry much weight when no hands on experience is involved. I know your budget is tight and PC's may not be up your alley....yet. As your budget grows you'll discover other aspects of audio, no shame in it if it takes awhile either.

bthogan

leftwinger57 wrote: »

...Now,we come to boutique power cords. I am extremely skeptical about these cables.I think people who buy these have to hear a difference for the better to justify the expense of buying this cable...

I know it's stupid to even get involved in this, but...what's my incentive, psychological, economic or otherwise, to put a relatively-inexpensive-but-not-cheap aftermarket cord on my amp, that I paid for with hard-earned cash (I'm not well-off in any sense) and find that it sounds noticeably worse (see above)?

And feel the same way - not as bad, but still not better than what I have, for my tastes - after ~50 hours of burn-in?

I can hear the difference between an Adcom amp, and a Parasound, and a McCormack, so I think I have some ability to objectively perceive differences in sound.

My point being only that, in my experience, power cords can and do affect a component's sound, for better and for worse.

Not trying to be difficult. Just saying.

If you don't want to buy one, don't. If you kind of do want to buy one, but can't (money) or won't (doubts), don't try to deal with your own frustration (money), or convince yourself you've made the right decision (doubts), by going after idiots like myself, who have bought one. And if you've never actually compared cords, then please, do not click on Submit Reply.

(If anyone ever sees me posting in a power cord debate thread after this, please notify my parents and the police. Especially if I'm responding to someone who has an opinion but no actual experience with them, in which case, call SWAT and/or someone you know who has some Vicodin.)

polrbehr

Jhayman wrote: »

I was like up until a few months ago, I came to CP with an attitude about power cables and how they don't do squat..
Well I argued with some very Intelligent members here and they showed me all kinds of proof but in the end I had few extra bucks kicking around so I decided to try one out, well I don't know about burn-in but I heard a definite improvement the moment I plugged it in to my amp..

Gotcha!!
There are no differences in any cables, whether power, speaker, IC, HDMI, whatever... lol

Bob in WI

So, who will volunteer to do a double blind power cord test? Are there power cord burn in standards to use a reference?

CoolJazz

Bob in WI wrote: »

So, who will volunteer to do a double blind power cord test? Are there power cord burn in standards to use a reference?

Hey, that'd be cool! Good idea.

But what about a different type of test. If we're going to bother, what about using a test that has the ability to actually work. Show differences...

CJ

Obsession18

As an electrical engineer with 30 years of experience working for a power company I can understand how a power cable can improve performance either thru shielding or maintaining proper voltage performance (gauge size). The burn-in thing is marketing, like I stated in an earlier post I have yet to come across anything that indicates aging improves the performance of cable. If it were the case don’t you think the utility industry would have documented it, we are after all the authority on power cables.

BlueFox

Obsession18 wrote: »

As an electrical engineer with 30 years of experience working for a power company I can understand how a power cable can improve performance either thru shielding or maintaining proper voltage performance (gauge size). The burn-in thing is marketing, like I stated in an earlier post I have yet to come across anything that indicates aging improves the performance of cable. If it were the case don’t you think the utility industry would have documented it, we are after all the authority on power cables.

Why would you think there is any relationship between generating electricity, and audio equipment? I suspect part of the burn-in aspect of power cables is the dielectric stabilizing and then operating at its most efficient. As we develop more precise tools to observe the atomic layer, it will be interesting to see if atoms stabilize into a manner which most efficiently conducts current. Anyway, while we certainly know more now, there is still a lot to discover in electronics. Speaking in certain terms about the unknown is not a wise thing to do.

bthogan

Obsession18 wrote: »

As an electrical engineer with 30 years of experience working for a power company I can understand how a power cable can improve performance either thru shielding or maintaining proper voltage performance (gauge size). The burn-in thing is marketing, like I stated in an earlier post I have yet to come across anything that indicates aging improves the performance of cable. If it were the case don’t you think the utility industry would have documented it, we are after all the authority on power cables.

Seems like you might want to start your own thread. I started this thread to discuss burning in a new power cord which sounded noticeably worse than the cord it was replacing; I didn't start it to argue with, or provide a forum for, people who want to weigh in on listening experiences that they haven't had.

P.S. Someone pls call SWAT and bring Vicodin.

Obsession18

BlueFox wrote: »

Why would you think there is any relationship between generating electricity, and audio equipment? I suspect part of the burn-in aspect of power cables is the dielectric stabilizing and then operating at its most efficient. As we develop more precise tools to observe the atomic layer, it will be interesting to see if atoms stabilize into a manner which most efficiently conducts current. Anyway, while we certainly know more now, there is still a lot to discover in electronics. Speaking in certain terms about the unknown is not a wise thing to do.

I don't deal in generating electricity I deal in transmitting power over both underground and overhead cables, I also deal with various types of dielectric materials both solid and fluid, I do not speak in uncertain terms. The power cord to an amp is basically the last part of the utilities delivery system. Drink the kool-aid if you choose.
t

headrott

Obsession18 wrote: »

I don't deal in generating electricity I deal in transmitting power over both underground and overhead cables, I also deal with various types of dielectric materials both solid and fluid, I do not speak in uncertain terms. The power cord to an amp is basically the last part of the utilities delivery system. Drink the kool-aid if you choose.
t

BF was not talking about things we know with regards to power currents and power cords, he was stating that there are still unkown aspects of electrical currents and power cords (and thier makeup). It is these unkowns that we obviously cannot speak of in a quantitative way, because we cannot measure them. If you believe that we can measure everything there is to measure with regards to electrical current in power cords, dialectrics and thier effects on current, and shielding and their effect on audio signals, then I can understand why you have the viewpoint you do. But, perhaps there is much more to discover quantitatively, that at present we cannot because of of the current measuring devices we use. It seems by your statement (and please correct and forgive me if I read more into it that you meant) that you know everything there is to know about power transmission bot now and into the future. If that's your stance, then it seems ti is you who are drinking the kool-aid, no?

WLDock

Obsession18 wrote: »

I believe most of the improvement people perceive with aftermarket power cables has to do with the shielding that keeps the local utilities 60Hz juice from inducing noise in other parts of their systems. One other possibility is that the original cable was not up to task from an ampacity standpoint (voltage drop under load) I find it hard to believe that a reputable amp manufacturer would provide a cable that is not up to task. It would be interesting to see if anyone could tell the difference between two of the exact same cables – one that is new and the other used for an extended period.

As for cable burn-in, I’m an electrical engineer that has worked as a planner for a major electric utility for 30 years. Part of my job is to know the behavior of various cables and their performance transmitting power, I have yet to come across anything that indicates aging improves the performance of cable.

In theory, I tend to side with your comments. The power cord is connecting line current/voltage to the power supply of the amp. The cord has to be capable of safely supplying the full rated current of the device to get safety certification.

So meeting NEC/UL safety requirements does not necessarily mean a manufacture is going to use a heavy gauge solid core copper cable...they are going to use what meets the requirement and what they can buy in bulk for cheap....in many cases the minimum AWG stranded wire.

So, in a way I see both sides of the argument but there is also the argument about the outlet, the wire in the wall, the panel, etc. If the aftermarket power cable is "BETTER" than the wire in the wall then how can this expensive power cable overcome the now bottleneck wire in the wall?

Still, at this point we are talking about if or if not power delivery is compromised using the OEM power cord and if an aftermarket cord will increase power delivery? Then add to this the burn in argument. Its a TOUGH argument!


Myself, I think I need to participate in a zip cord vs. mid price vs. uber expensive power cord blind test on a mid to high end system. I just have not got into power cords nor have I personally owned what I would consider a "high end" super detailed system.

I've listened to others high end systems, studio rigs, PA systems, and performed the same songs live in several different types of venues....I know for a FACT there are many factors that can affect the final outcome of the sound rather it be acoustic or amplified.

I spent my younger years searching for audio nirvana in car audio because I thought it was cheaper. I've built some decent systems and have listen to some amazing competition systems. Now that I'm older I plan to see how far I can go in home audio. The problem is...my ears are not as sharp as they once were and I make more money that I ever had but with inflation and a wife and two kids, high end home audio seems like more a dream than a reality. However, I will put something together that is nice given the great used market and I will seek as many opportunities as possible to try out different (Power, IC, speaker) cables and given my DIY roots will be making some cables of my own to test.

Bob in WI

" The burn-in thing is marketing," hey! Don't ruin the fun. Still eagerly anticipating the double blind test. This needs to be put to rest now!!!

BlueFox

Bob in WI wrote: »

" The burn-in thing is marketing," hey! Don't ruin the fun. Still eagerly anticipating the double blind test. This needs to be put to rest now!!!

Do it. Nobody is stopping you.

BlueFox

bthogan wrote: »

Just wanted to update...I got the Shunyata burn-in cord, and put the Venom 3 on my air conditioner, which runs 24/7 in this weather. Cooked it for a couple of weeks. It's back on the amp, and sounds much much better than it did before. I'll probably leave it there, and stick the jelllyfish cords I picked up (thanks to this: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?146883-Quail-Powercords-aka-Jellyfish-power-cords) on the A/C for a couple of weeks, then put them on my pre and cdp.

And (as indicated) I have also gotten a wealth of advice, tips and other good stuff from this site.

I started with Shunyata Venom cords on my amps, and it made me wonder that if a $100 cable can make this big an improvement then what do their $1000 cables do. So, I upgraded to Python CX cables, and haven't looked back. The only thing I will suggest is to try a Ztron cable in place of the Venom. There is a world of difference.

WLDock

BlueFox wrote: »

There is a world of difference.

I would really love to hear this world of difference one day. As I stated, I completely shied away from high end audio because I thought one needed a $20K-$50K+ rig to even began to hear any difference in expensive cables, isolators, cable lifters, ....the blue dots, the green markers on CD. s, etc, etc,

Still, a $1000 POWER CORD?

"The Python CX benefits from a massive array of 280 conductors culled from Shunyata's CDA 101 copper. The conductors are wound into a dual counter rotating Helix geometry that has been proven to reduce the effects of radiated noise and internal, unwanted reflections. The Python CX's massive conductor compliment is capable of delivering over 30 amps of current to even the most current hungry amplifier or powered speaker. Terminations are Shunyata's own, optimized SR-ZP AC and IEC connectors. Finally, the Python CX undergoes Shunyata's exclusive Alpha Cryogenic conductor treatment processes before being finished and ready for application!"

Its hard for me to understand how a few feet of $1000 power cable can make a difference when there is basic building THHN-TFFN Wire that cost $50 for a 500 ft roll run in the wall? How is the expensive cable going to overcome the standard residential wiring?




I hope to hear these 'night and day" differences some day that others speak of. Yes, I've heard awesome sounding home systems with uber expensive cables. I've even heard car audio systems with uber expensive Kimber Kable, Seas Nextel drivers Focal beryllium tweets...the system was super detailed....but I have yet to participate in a double blind test of cables on a worthy ref system.

I think I now have an open mind but knowledgeable enough with a good enough ear to sort through the BS.