Review of the Pioneer Elite SC-68

Drenis

EndersShadow wrote: »

I was debating moving from the Integra DTR 5.9 to one of their higher end models in the future, specifically something in the DTR 70 or 80 range, but now am re-considering it lol....

It boiled down to MCACC vs. Audyssey and you shot the Pio's down when I and others recommended them. Heh... Go to the dark side.

EndersShadow

Drenis wrote: »

It boiled down to MCACC vs. Audyssey and you shot the Pio's down when I and others recommended them. Heh... Go to the dark side.

I know, I know, I have been re-considering the MCACC option, but I also am still interested in some A4L Marantz models. However I keep hearing good things about Pio's SC models over and over again... maybe I will drink the koolaid........

I am interested in Anthem with ARC but I dont like that their AVR's only have 4 HDMI's so I dont really gain anything there.

Either way its going to be a year or so before I look to seriously upgrade. And when I do it will more than likely be used lol....

I just haven't heard anything that really makes me say, OMG thats what I am missing from my setup. And thats a good thing for my wallet

jon s

You know that Marantz and Denon are joined at the hip? I read an article where the writer opened up a Denon and a Marantz AVR that were priced similarly. Under the hood, both AVRs had nearly identical parts down to the board layout and parts.

Forgot one thing... SC68 has gold plated jacks and the SC67 is nickel plated...

P.S. I ordered the SC67 from Best Buy and they matched the Amazon price with free shipping... I should be getting it in two weeks as it was a special order, they don't stock it. They don't even carry the SC68 at all...

mantis

jon s wrote: »

You know that Marantz and Denon are joined at the hip? I read an article where the writer opened up a Denon and a Marantz AVR that were priced similarly. Under the hood, both AVRs had nearly identical parts down to the board layout and parts.

Forgot one thing... SC68 has gold plated jacks and the SC67 is nickel plated...

P.S. I ordered the SC67 from Best Buy and they matched the Amazon price with free shipping... I should be getting it in two weeks as it was a special order, they don't stock it. They don't even carry the SC68 at all...

I noticed that when I was comparing the SC-07 to the SC-68. Thats how Pioneer Elite use to be back in the day on it's flagship models. It made me feel good.

I heard Best Buy was backing off flagship stuff , they are not in good shape and I hope they make moves to stay in business. I'm tired of all the Brick and mortar stores going under. It's nice to have somewhere to go touch something.

jon s

The general consensus is that Best Buy may not last the year. Their customer service has been horrible. The 2011 Christmas debacle turned off a lot of people (customers who ordered online had their Christmas purchases cancelled right before Christmas). They got rid of their commissions which lead to the exodus of much of their knowledgable staff.

The big problem is that Best Buy cannot compete against Amazon. They own and operate hundreds of large stores along with their accompanying staff, stocking each one with the required inventory. Amazon is sold through warehouses or third party dealers with no support staff or stores in every major town, cutting down costs tremendously. A salesman I know said most people with go to Best Buy, ask them for info and then buy from Amazon because it is cheaper (plus they did not charge sales taxes and had free shipping early on). Best Buy is now price matching Amazon (unknown by most customers) just to compete and profits are way down.

The former owner is trying to buy back the company but the truth is there is not much he can do to save the company. The prognosis is they will be going away just like CompUSA, Circuit City and Computer City.

Drenis

jon s wrote: »

The general consensus is that Best Buy may not last the year. Their customer service has been horrible. The 2011 Christmas debacle turned off a lot of people (customers who ordered online had their Christmas purchases cancelled right before Christmas). They got rid of their commissions which lead to the exodus of much of their knowledgable staff.

The big problem is that Best Buy cannot compete against Amazon. They own and operate hundreds of large stores along with their accompanying staff, stocking each one with the required inventory. Amazon is sold through warehouses or third party dealers with no support staff or stores in every major town, cutting down costs tremendously. A salesman I know said most people with go to Best Buy, ask them for info and then buy from Amazon because it is cheaper (plus they did not charge sales taxes and had free shipping early on). Best Buy is now price matching Amazon (unknown by most customers) just to compete and profits are way down.

The former owner is trying to buy back the company but the truth is there is not much he can do to save the company. The prognosis is they will be going away just like CompUSA, Circuit City and Computer City.

I for one hope that whatever happens, something is worked out for retailers outside of the states. Best Buy purchased Future Shop which is a cross Canada chain that carries MANY electronics up here. Similar to Best Buy but they carry better products. These would probably suffer should something happen to Best Buy leaving us with not much at that point.

The **** part about Amazon is our .ca version is ****, I mean big horse **** compared to the .com offering. There is nothing on Amazon.ca that I can't get locally and for the same price. The selection is garbage. So with that, I see this as a US issue only. I could be wrong though....

mantis

Quick update for anyone thinking of buying a SC-68 , the front USB which where one would use a iPod , phone or pad to play music can also use a Flash drive to play .flac high rez files. So with that in mind you can load a really nice playlist on the flash drive and kick back. I personally use the rear USB DAC and run my computer connected to it. My Mac Mini is a bit older so I decided to just use my Macbook Pro for now for all of my 2 channel listening until I get a brand new Mac mini to live in my system.

tonyb

mantis wrote: »

It's nice to have somewhere to go touch something.

Thats why virtual reality will never replace prostitutes.

Agree on the brick and mortar stores. Seeing and touching things gives a customer better perspective on the quality they are buying.
Glad your diggin' that Pioneer bro, seems like they hit this one out of the park. If you had to pigeon hole it, what would you say is the least desireable feature ?

timalan

Thanks for the review... I picked up a used SC-07 in the last year, and have really enjoyed it... the nice part of how time passes is that an amp like the SC-07 is now available in the used market ~$500, which is pretty amazing. So for those out there that want sound quality over bells and whistles, it's a better value than almost anything on the market...

Now I know to start looking for an SC-68 for the next round of upgrades somewhere down the road.

mantis

tonyb wrote: »

Thats why virtual reality will never replace prostitutes.

Agree on the brick and mortar stores. Seeing and touching things gives a customer better perspective on the quality they are buying.
Glad your diggin' that Pioneer bro, seems like they hit this one out of the park. If you had to pigeon hole it, what would you say is the least desireable feature ?

Great point , nothing like the touch of a women.
The Non Urushi Finish front face plate. Yeah it looks good IF Pioneer always did it that way. I want my Urushi back.
Ok when you want to Airplay into zone 2 or 3 , you have to Airplay into the main zone first then switch to the Media input in Zone 2 or 3. Not that bad but you should be able to Airplay directly into any zone you want.
Lack of True Dual sub outs - this is something I have been waiting for since the SC-09tx. It's the ONLY Elite ever made that has True Dual Sub outs. The SC-68 has sub 1 and sub 2 out but it's a internal Y splitter. You can't calibrate the subs independently. That really sucks bad. I'm really disappointed here. I have really no issue calibrating 2 subs myself but it would be nice if Pioneer did it for me.
Other then that , it's incredible.

mantis

timalan wrote: »

Thanks for the review... I picked up a used SC-07 in the last year, and have really enjoyed it... the nice part of how time passes is that an amp like the SC-07 is now available in the used market ~$500, which is pretty amazing. So for those out there that want sound quality over bells and whistles, it's a better value than almost anything on the market...

Now I know to start looking for an SC-68 for the next round of upgrades somewhere down the road.

$500 for the SC-07 is hard for me to swallow. There are few receivers made that sound better ever. Even today nothing from anyone else IMO sounds better under $3000.00. If you don't need 3D or 4k pass , this is still the Ultimate receiver. I still have mine and have little desire to sell it. It's not in use but it's with the rest of my collection.

polkfarmboy

mantis wrote: »

$ Even today nothing from anyone else IMO sounds better under $3000.00. If you don't need 3D or 4k pass , this is still the Ultimate receiver.

I know you love pioneer Dan but come on they are not that great, geez

Toolfan66

They are that great IMO!!

polkfarmboy

I respectfully disagree especially on my speakers, I tried out the sc25 and it was bright and anemic but it may be best for those with speakers that have diff sonic characteristics. I spoke with a few ML users and everyone agree'd that even with amplification they did not sound the best. One user who got rid of his after a week in a blind buy called it craponeer

leroyjr1

polkfarmboy wrote: »

I respectfully disagree especially on my speakers, I tried out the sc25 and it was bright and anemic but it may be best for those with speakers that have diff sonic characteristics. I spoke with a few ML users and everyone agree'd that even with amplification they did not sound the best. One user who got rid of his after a week in a blind buy called it craponeer

So what sounds better in that price range?

mantis

leroyjr1 wrote: »

So what sounds better in that price range?

Nothing.

B Run

polkfarmboy wrote: »

I respectfully disagree especially on my speakers, I tried out the sc25 and it was bright and anemic but it may be best for those with speakers that have diff sonic characteristics. I spoke with a few ML users and everyone agree'd that even with amplification they did not sound the best. One user who got rid of his after a week in a blind buy called it craponeer

Doesn't Martin Logan use the same design B&O Ice amps in their powered speakers?

Toolfan66

mantis wrote: »

Nothing.

Agreed!!!!!

timalan

B Run wrote: »

Doesn't Martin Logan use the same design B&O Ice amps in their powered speakers?

yep. I was looking up the newer powered models earlier, and yes, they proudly use the ICE amp design, same as the SC-07. It was the ICE amps that made me pick up an SC-line in the first place...

timalan

On a related note, does anyone else find the price spread strange on all the systems using B&O ICE Amps... it seems like every high-end manufacturer under the sun has something out with ICE amps, all licensing the same tech, and some are easily 20x the price of others... is there anything in a $uper high end ICE amp-based rig that makes it noticeably superior to the Pioneer implementation?

ZLTFUL

Not really. If I hadn't got a screaming deal on the Aventage I picked up (someday I will remember to clean up my sig), I was going to pick up the SC-61.
I listened to it alongside the Denon, Marantz, Harman Kardon(not really equivilant since their top model doesn't seem to have pre outs) with the same speakers in the same room with the same sources and cables.
Even when connecting the Denon and Marantz options up to a JBL AVA7, the Pioneer just had an overall better sound. It's hard to explain but the Pioneer amp section just seemed "effortless".

polkfarmboy

Some ML speakers use ice amps for the woofers, only the Purity and some other center was fully powered by ice. Just because you have an ice amp in a receiver does not necessarily mean they would be the same found in a Bel canto

tonyb

The price differences with ice amps is in the implementation with a certain design. Just because 2 different products have the same ice amps doesn't mean consumer costs will be the same. There's simply more to it than a collection of parts. Same ice amp but crappy other parts....or same ice amps and quality associated parts, quality analog output stages, dacs etc. The differences can be large, thus so can the price.

mantis

polkfarmboy wrote: »

Some ML speakers use ice amps for the woofers, only the Purity and some other center was fully powered by ice. Just because you have an ice amp in a receiver does not necessarily mean they would be the same found in a Bel canto

I just met with the Bel Canto Rep today and yes they are the same. The difference is their DAC and analog output stages.Like Pioneer they are version 5 and are coming out with some killer multichannel amps , which to me is exciting. They also have some badass mono's which I might check out for the sheer hell of it.

Pioneer don't use ICE anymore , they developed their out Class D amps called D3.
The SC-68’s Class D3 9-channel amplifier is one of the most powerful amplifiers of any multi-channel A/V receiver Pioneer has ever produced. Keeping the new audio formats of the Blu-ray Disc? format in mind, Class D3 takes high-resolution multi-channel audio to a whole new level of immersive performance.

Rated at 140 watts x 9 channels with an 11.2-channel preout, the SC-68 delivers plenty of power, but it's not the whole story. Where the SC-68 really shows its unprecedented power output capability is when driving multi-channels simultaneously without losing significant per-channel output. Class A/B amplifiers simply cannot match the efficiency of Class D3 as their power output per channel diminishes rapidly when more channels are added to the work-load. This kind of unprecedented power capability allows you to appreciate the full dynamics from any media source in a way never before possible. The ability to drive more channels, simultaneously, means you can fully reproduce all of the dynamics and impact of high definition multi-channel Dolby and DTS soundtracks with up to 9 channels of the highest quality power output available today.

rdb2001

I am in agreeance with polkfarmboy. I have never heard an elite I like for anything other than movies. For music, it was just too forward for me. For movies, it was great but much was desired for music playback. Thats whats great about this hobby is that everybody likes what they like. To say there is nothing under 3k that best it is crazy as that is your opinion. You are pretty much saying it best the Arcam AVR400 & 600, Anthem MRX line, Denon and Marantz Flagship, Onkyo and Integra flagship and thats just to name a few. I just dont agree with that. To each its own. I dont doubt it is a feature rich receiver but to say it is the best under 3k is crazy in my opinion.

mantis

rdb2001 wrote: »

I am in agreeance with polkfarmboy. I have never heard an elite I like for anything other than movies. For music, it was just too forward for me. For movies, it was great but much was desired for music playback. Thats whats great about this hobby is that everybody likes what they like. To say there is nothing under 3k that best it is crazy as that is your opinion. You are pretty much saying it best the Arcam AVR400 & 600, Anthem MRX line, Denon and Marantz Flagship, Onkyo and Integra flagship and thats just to name a few. I just dont agree with that. To each its own. I dont doubt it is a feature rich receiver but to say it is the best under 3k is crazy in my opinion.

And thats ok you feel that way , I feel as stated. No other AVR or even a Preamp for double duty has a built in Asynchronous DAC. This is a remarkable feature especially for me and many others out their getting into or have already been into Computer music High Rez style.
Sound quality is completely subjective , can't argue what one hears , but in my world , I've never seen more happy people with the performance , sound quality , features of the SC receivers over the last 4 to 5 years now. Some Denon owners where stopped in their tracks when we swapped out a Denon for a Elite. It was a bit shocking when the wife who really didn't pay much attention to sound quality commented on how much better her system sounded , "It never sounded this good" She said.
I personally and Professionally haven't found anything better overall. Nothing out there touches it IMO. Sure all the models you listed above are very fine products but none of them have put as many smiles on my customers and my own face/s. So my Statement stands as fact IMO.

B Run

mantis wrote: »

Rated at 140 watts x 9 channels with an 11.2-channel preout, the SC-68 delivers plenty of power, but it's not the whole story. Where the SC-68 really shows its unprecedented power output capability is when driving multi-channels simultaneously without losing significant per-channel output.

I haven't got my ears on one yet but would like to. I always figured the new D3 amps didn't put out as much power as the old ICE ones, at least according to the test bench results from home theater. The SC-37 put out 135w with 5 channels driven, while the SC-68 put out 92wpc. I know there's much more to the story than just wattage but i've been waiting for someone to directly compare the two, sounds like it's still a nice upgrade and i'm sure the DAC makes a huge difference.

polkfarmboy

mantis wrote: »

And thats ok you feel that way , I feel as stated. No other AVR or even a Preamp
So my Statement stands as fact IMO.

Dan now your saying its a fact that pioneer is the best based on the opinions of a bunch of people that has to pay money to a shop to wire up there speakers because they do not posses the intellect to do so for themselfs. Whats a preamp even got to do with this ? Are you now saying that your pioneer is one of the best preamps out there all because you now have a free dac built in ?

Your opinion is not fact

jon s

I just got my Pioneer SC-67 from Best Buy and set it up yesterday. One surprising omission is the Pioneer did not come with any instruction manual (you spend $2000 on a receiver it does not come with instructions?). You have to download it from the Pioneer site. The instructions are very vague and not written in a logical manner. It comes with a CD (AV Navigator) for use on a laptop to aid you in setting up the system but it does not run on a Mac.

It was noticeably lighter than my Onkyo TX-NR906 (54 lbs vs 38 lbs). The Pioneer no longer has that "Urushi"gloss black finish but rather a brused aluminum look. Less smudges but it no longer matches my other Elite stuff. The speaker connections use banana plugs but the plugs themselves are rather flimsy and feel they will break if any tension is applied to it as the connectors bend readily. You can rename all the inputs (e.g. change DVD to Denon DVD3930) but the process is very long and tedious. The text goes through all the letters (upper and lowercase) as well as nearly every symbol on a keyboard, such as #,$,%, etc)

I initially used it in stereo mode using an Oppo BDP-83SE (with the upgraded ESS DACs). The sound is noticeably different. The music seems cleaner with less grain than the Onkyo but the Onkyo seemed to be more robust in sound. The highs in the Pioneer is not as open as the Onkyo, the bass is not as extended as well. Soundstage and imaging on the Pioneer is notably better than the Onkyo.

I then ran MCCAC through its paces. It reported that my center channel speaker is out of phase. I checked the connections and the speaker is definitely connected correctly. I am going to have to take down the speaker (a Polk RT55i) and check the wiring to see if there is anything amiss internally. After running MCCAC the surround sounds more open and spacious than the Audyssey XT from the Onkyo, but bass was definitely light on the bottom end.

I am using an Oppo BDP-83SE and a Pioneer BDP-09FD for movie playback. One thing I noticed immediately is that video appears a lot later on screen than my Onkyo (which was pretty slow in itself). For example, when I play a Paramount disc, the opening splash screen (the Paramount logo with High Definition text) the sound comes out first and the logo finally appears on screen near the end of the animation. There was no change in PQ as compared to my older Onkyo since video is passed through.

I have one BIG issue with the Pioneer. The remote control is useless. Totally. I have never encountered one as bad as this one. It is long and slender. The buttons are all similarly sized and arranged in an unfriendly layout. The text is so small on it you cannot read it. It is backlit but it's useless because its red and most of the buttons are dual function and the function you need is not lit. I am resigned to the fact I will have to buy a universal remote to be rid of this annoyance.

I bought this receiver for its multi-zone capability and I have yet to get it working. I wanted to use a dual system in my home theater. I have my usual 7.1 setup for watching movies. But I also wanted to set up a second zone in the theater so I can use a different pair of speaker just for listening to CDs in stereo. When using the second zone, i do not want the 7.1 system engaged. I definitely have the second pair of speaker connected to the correct terminals. You have to engage the second zone from the front panel (you cannot activate it from the remote). But the 7.1 system comes on and teh second pair of speakers is silent.

tonyb

Oh no.....now you've done it. You pissed off Dan with that review. Watch for him to show up on your doorstep with a bubble gun and blow suds in your ears.:cheesygrin: