What influences sound the most
CCNJ
Posts: 384
I want to limit the discussion to electronics and remove speakers, source, room treatments and cables from the discussion. Which of the following three components do you feel has the greatest ability to influence sound quality in a two channel setup. I welcome any supporting comments or anecdotes.
Preamp
DAC
Power Amp
Preamp
DAC
Power Amp
Rig1 - Totem Hawks, Benchmark HDR, Parasound A21, Sonus, Samsung 52 LCD, Audioquest Type4
Rig2 - LFD LE IV Integrated, Harbeth P3ESR, Rega Dac, MF V-Link, IMAC, Audioquest Type4
Rig2 - LFD LE IV Integrated, Harbeth P3ESR, Rega Dac, MF V-Link, IMAC, Audioquest Type4
Post edited by CCNJ on
Comments
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My AVR!"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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For my setup it was the preamp.
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I would think it would be whatever piece of gear is the one converting the signal to analog. Any changes upstream from that component cant add or enhance sound that has been removed.
So if your going digital to your pre-amp and then analog to your amp, I would say your pre. If your going digital to your DAC and then analog to a pre, I would say your pre, ect."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Power amp from that line up.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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Some differing opinions so far. I haven't done enough experimenting to offer any more than a gut feel right now. I am curious however if am allocating dollars smartly on the electronics front.Rig1 - Totem Hawks, Benchmark HDR, Parasound A21, Sonus, Samsung 52 LCD, Audioquest Type4
Rig2 - LFD LE IV Integrated, Harbeth P3ESR, Rega Dac, MF V-Link, IMAC, Audioquest Type4 -
Tubes...The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
nooshinjohn wrote: »Tubes...
Tube pre, tube dac, tube power amp?Rig1 - Totem Hawks, Benchmark HDR, Parasound A21, Sonus, Samsung 52 LCD, Audioquest Type4
Rig2 - LFD LE IV Integrated, Harbeth P3ESR, Rega Dac, MF V-Link, IMAC, Audioquest Type4 -
I can only speak to amps and pre's, but the two most dramatic improvements in my rig came about with a Rogue Audio pre and my tube amps. Detail is off the charts, as is imaging, soundstage, and transparency. Speakers are not part of your discussion, so I will limit my comments to say this. Little Maggies are like being in the tenth row of a performance, and the big ones put me on the stage.
Tubes give life to sound in the same way that a great performer gives life to his or her instrument. Tubes are essential if you want to hear everything the artist intended, and a few things they didn't. I swear I could hear a **** on one recording.
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
nooshinjohn wrote: »I can only speak to amps and pre's, but the two most dramatic improvements in my rig came about with a Rogue Audio pre and my tube amps. Detail is off the charts, as is imaging, soundstage, and transparency. Speakers are not part of your discussion, so I will limit my comments to say this. Little Maggies are like being in the tenth row of a performance, and the big ones put me on the stage.
Tubes give life to sound in the same way that a great performer gives life to his or her instrument. Tubes are essential if you want to hear everything the artist intended, and a few things they didn't. I swear I could hear a **** on one recording.
Thanks for elaborating. What rogue pre did you have that made such a dramatic improvement and why isn't it in your current sig today.Rig1 - Totem Hawks, Benchmark HDR, Parasound A21, Sonus, Samsung 52 LCD, Audioquest Type4
Rig2 - LFD LE IV Integrated, Harbeth P3ESR, Rega Dac, MF V-Link, IMAC, Audioquest Type4 -
I want to limit the discussion to electronics and remove speakers, source, room treatments and cables from the discussion. Which of the following three components do you feel has the greatest ability to influence sound quality in a two channel setup. I welcome any supporting comments or anecdotes.
Preamp
DAC
Power Amp
This is not a flippant answer, but all 3. You can't cut corners on either piece and make up that cut corner with the other 2 pieces of gear. I know it's not what you wanted to hear, but it's true. If you already have a capable amp and preamp, I have found the most difference in DAC's, even DAC's that use the same digital chipset.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
The Rogue Audio Perseus with Magnum upgrades and phono stage. It was replaced by the Sunfire Classic Tube pre, also with a phono stage.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
This is not a flippant answer, but all 3. You can't cut corners on either piece and make up that cut corner with the other 2 pieces of gear. I know it's not what you wanted to hear, but it's true. If you already have a capable amp and preamp, I have found the most difference in DAC's, even DAC's that use the same digital chipset.
H9
I do realize that everything in the chain makes a difference but I wanted to get opinions on which of the three made the most dramatic improvement in people's rigs based on their own experimentation.Rig1 - Totem Hawks, Benchmark HDR, Parasound A21, Sonus, Samsung 52 LCD, Audioquest Type4
Rig2 - LFD LE IV Integrated, Harbeth P3ESR, Rega Dac, MF V-Link, IMAC, Audioquest Type4 -
+1 h-9. Went through 1/2 doz. amps till i found the sound i wanted....went through a bakers doz. of pre's till i found one my amp liked. And the DAC was the icing on the cake that they both liked. Its expieramentation to find the "senergy". Of the diff units that produces tje results your ears like. And i cant even count how mamy speakers i went thrpugh till i found the sound i have now.so therw ia no one single answer to pur question. Sorry but you asked.Main Rig:
Krell KAV 250a biamped to mid/highs
Parasound HCA1500A biamped to lows
Nakamichi EC100 Active xover
MIT exp 1 ic's
Perreaux SA33 class A preamp
AQ kingcobra ic's
OPPO 83 CDP
Lehmann audio black cube SE phono pre, Audioquest phono wire (ITA1/1)
Denon DP-1200 TT. AToc9ML MC cart.
Monster HTS 3600 power conditioner
ADS L1590/2 Biamped
MIT exps2 speaker cable -
Good question, but if you ask me.......YOU do.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Like it or not, the room and speakers do."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Like it or not, the room and speakers do.
For me, speakers would top the list but i wanted to focus this discussion on electronics.Rig1 - Totem Hawks, Benchmark HDR, Parasound A21, Sonus, Samsung 52 LCD, Audioquest Type4
Rig2 - LFD LE IV Integrated, Harbeth P3ESR, Rega Dac, MF V-Link, IMAC, Audioquest Type4 -
Good question, but if you ask me.......YOU do.
Took me a minute to get it...good answerRig1 - Totem Hawks, Benchmark HDR, Parasound A21, Sonus, Samsung 52 LCD, Audioquest Type4
Rig2 - LFD LE IV Integrated, Harbeth P3ESR, Rega Dac, MF V-Link, IMAC, Audioquest Type4 -
In that case, it varies. Some manufactures design their products flat with the lowest amount of distortion, some tilt FR in either direction, some add a little extra distortion for "lushness". It depends more on the exact component in question than the category.For me, speakers would top the list but i wanted to focus this discussion on electronics."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
My first "WHOA" moment came when I plugged in the Adcom GFP-750 preamp.
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Once you get reasonably good versions of those three items then you will be amazed at how much sound can be improved with vibration isolation, and all forms of cables (power, speaker, ICs).Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
The preamp does.
I have noticed by adding amps to certain systems that their was little or no change at all in the overall sound quality. More dynamic range and more control which to some may think it's a change in sound quality and I can agree to a point.
I'm not saying all amps sound the same , some sound very different from the other depending on the radical differences in power , design , etc. Technically all amps should sound the same but they don't. In many rigs , changing out an amp is less noticeable then the preamp.
DAC's change the sound depending on what you are comparing them to. If you have 2 good DAC's , it's hard to tell them apart. A cheap internal DAC compared to a good quality external DAC will yield easier to hear results.
All things in ones system matter as you are building a system , not focusing on each part but how they all work together. This is the key to a successfull sounding system.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
A Tube Pre.
Speakers
Carver Amazing Fronts
CS400i Center
RT800i's Rears
Sub Paradigm Servo 15
Electronics
Conrad Johnson PV-5 pre-amp
Parasound Halo A23
Pioneer 84TXSi AVR
Pioneer 79Avi DVD
Sony CX400 CD changer
Panasonic 42-PX60U Plasma
WMC Win7 32bit HD DVR -
The preamp does.
I have noticed by adding amps to certain systems that their was little or no change at all in the overall sound quality. More dynamic range and more control which to some may think it's a change in sound quality and I can agree to a point.
I'm not saying all amps sound the same , some sound very different from the other depending on the radical differences in power , design , etc. Technically all amps should sound the same but they don't. In many rigs , changing out an amp is less noticeable then the preamp.
DAC's change the sound depending on what you are comparing them to. If you have 2 good DAC's , it's hard to tell them apart. A cheap internal DAC compared to a good quality external DAC will yield easier to hear results.
Couldn't disagree more with your comments about amps and dac's. I've heard it with my own ears, and they don't lie. The bolded part is ridiculous to say and I have found power ratings have very little to do with sound quality unless you have speakers at the extreme end that need gobs of power to operate properly or you have an extremely large room to pressurize. Then it's not so much about differences in quality with wattage, but having the proper power to overcome the inefficiency or room size.All things in ones system matter as you are building a system , not focusing on each part but how they all work together. This is the key to a successfull sounding system.
Now the above, I agree with that."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
If you are not a fan of digital, then I think the most important component in an analog system would be the phono cartridge. If the detail is not tracked then it cannot be reproduced. I was amazed at how different the music sounds with various cartridge and stylus types. I will admit that a tube pre made a large impact on the sound quality of my system, but the cartridge (or dac for digital) is key.Sources: Technics SL1200MKII | SME3009 Tonearm | Monster Alpha 1 MC cartridge | Oppo UDP203 disk player | Nikko NT-790 analog tuner | Musical Fidelity Trivista 21 DAC | Preamp: Threshold SL-10 | Amplifier: Threshold Stasis 2 | Speakers: Snell Acoustics C/V | Kimber 12-TC bi wire speakers | Analysis plus Oval 1 preamp to amp | Wireworld Eclipse 7 DAC to Preamp | Wireworld eclipse digital IC Oppo to DAC | Audioquest Quartz tuner to preamp |
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Tube pre here.b]Beach Audio[/b]: Rega RP6 (mods) - AT33PTG/II - Parks Budgie SUT - PSAudio NPC * Eversolo DMP-A6 * Topping D90iii * Joule-Electra LA-100 mkIII * Pass Aleph 30 * MIT S3 * Polk SRS 2.3tl (mods) * PSAudio PPP3
Beach Study: Pro-Ject Stream Box S2 Ultra & Pre Box S2 * Pass ACA * DH Labs SS Q10 * Brines Folded ML-TQWT RS 40-1354 * PSA Dectet
Beach Master: WiiM Pro * Dayens Menuetto * Zu Libtec * Dynaudio Audience 50
Beach Den: Bluesound Powernode 2i * DH Labs SS Q10 * Zu Omen DWII * Richard Gray RGPC
Town Study: WiiM Pro * Chord Qute (Pardo) * Elekit TU-8600 * MIT S3 * Revel M22 * Beyer DT-990 * Shunyata Hydra 2
Town Den: Music Hall mm5.1se - Denon DL-103r - Jolida JD9ii (mods) * WiiM Pro * Cary xCiter * Rogue 99 Magnum * Schiit Aegir * MIT S3 * Polk SRS 1.2tl (mods) * Dectet * Bottlehead Crack - Senn 600
Town Porch: WiiM Pro Plus * Sunfire Sig II * Canare 4S11 * Magnepan 1.6 * Dectet -
Out of the three choices listed I'll go with the DAC as having the most impact. Of course the room trumps them all...but of course you already know that."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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Your ears.
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Whatever the weakest link is, that is the piece that is influencing the sound the most at any given time.
Not exactly what you were looking for, but it's the truth.
Now, if I had to put them in order, I'd say:
- Dac
- Pre
- Amp
Why? Because if your DAC and pre are good, an amp can't make it sound really crappy unless it's defective. If your amp and DAC are good, a pre could possibly make it sound really crappy, even if it wasn't defective. But if your pre and amp are good, a DAC can definitely make it sound crappy, even just operating as it was intended.
One reason for this may be that there just aren't a lot of super crappy dedicated 2-channel home audio preamps and poweramps out there, whereas there are a ton a crappy DAC's, mainly internal, but external as well.
edit: so given my theory, why is it that I've spent the most money on my amp, followed by me pre, followed by my DAC??? I don't know.2-Channel: PC > Schiit Eitr > Audio Research DAC-8 > Audio Research LS-26 > Pass Labs X-250.5 > Magnepan 3.7's
Living Room: PC > Marantz AV-7703 > Emotiva XPA-5 > Sonus Faber Liuto Towers, Sonus Faber Liuto Center, Sonus Faber Liuto Bookshelves > Dual SVS PC12-Pluses
Office: Phone/Tablet > AudioEngine B1 > McIntosh D100 > Bryston 4B-ST > Polk Audio LSiM-703's -
For me, when I went from using a AVR as a pre to using an actual dedicated preamp. It was a night and day moment.--Gary--
Onkyo Integra M504, Bottlehead Foreplay III, Denon SACD, Thiel CS2.3, NHT VT-2, VT-3 and Evolution T6, Infinity RSIIIa, SDA1C and a few dozen other speakers around the house I change in and out. -
I would have to agree that everything makes a difference. But with Face, I'd have to go with speakers. In my experience there are some speakers that sound "good" with almost anything? The two in particular that come to mind are classic Polk Monitors and ADS. It's is HARD to make those sound bad, period.
Along with John I'd also go with "tubes" next. I've found that almost anything with good tubes put into the chain has an "effect", usually a good one! The easiest to see instantly, is to get a hold of a good tube CDP and run it.
DACs yeah, I'm on record on those. I think they're important but they're really, really expensive if you're going to get a "good" one!
And a decent tube integrated. Stick a fork in it you're done for now!
Enough for now!
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
