What influences sound the most
Comments
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In case you haven't noticed, this thing is completely going in circles and that's pretty typical. But to get a handle on it, let's say that you've got some pretty good gear that mates well with your speakers and your source and you want to know which one will have the most impact of an upgrade?
In my experience, it's the Pre. But you never know until you try.
HOWEVER: Face nailed it. If you've got a solid system and you want to go to the next level and really hear something different, there's two ways to go:
-New speakers
-Fix your room
No one does the latter since it just isn't fun. I laugh my balls off every time a see people swapping out power cables in a room full of glass and tile. Do cables matter? Sure, but the difference is vanishingly small compared to the room. To a lesser degree the same thing goes for DAC, Amp, Pre. You can get a bigger impact with room treatments. Is it as sexy as a 75 pound preamp with the milled aluminum faceplate? Nope. But once you hear what a great room can do, you'll get out of the upgrade circle for awhile.
That is, until the room is fixed and you can REALLY hear what's wrong with your system.Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
Backburner:Krell KAV-300i -
Probably because rooms are tough to deal with. I've had the JBLs above in a over a dozen different rooms. They are very very picky about where they are. Some rooms regardless of what you do, they will not sound good! Others, very few, they take to immediately.
Currently my home office has all four walls covered with wall to wall foam panels, it's almost anechoic, lol (looks pretty silly too). But placement still matters. The wife hates the look and I don't allow "normal" humans in there! lol
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
Room acoustics>recording>Speakers>Power amp>preamp>Source>cables
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It's the room...period. Great speakers, great gear are all nice but the room is the biggest contributing factor when it comes to the final sound we hear."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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Hello, CNJ. I do believe that with this question, you are limiting yourself to looking at just the trees. If you would allow yourself to look beyond those trees, there is a forest out there that will lead you toward audio bliss.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Man! I read through every post hoping no one would say beer..........BEER!
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Man! I read through every post hoping no one would say beer..........BEER!
Yes. That does have a big influence, usually for the better. The problem is, at least for me, I can't drink beer as often as I listen to music. :biggrin:Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
For me, when I went from using a AVR as a pre to using an actual dedicated preamp. It was a night and day moment.
Agreed!! I was floored then I was really hooked to the hobby... -
I'd say Larry's rings do. You can put them on top of your preamp or even hang the on the wall for diffusion, but that's if you can get your hands on them because he's selective as to whom he sells them too. Don't get on his bad side, he's an emotional dude.
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Agreed!! I was floored then I was really hooked to the hobby...
Cables floored me next, then room treatments, then a DAC.. -
Cables floored me next, then room treatments, then a DAC..
Cables before room treatments and a DAC? Yikes... -
Cables and power form the foundation of the system. Once they are in place then the other items will only improve on the sound. Of course they must be equal to, or better, than the foundation in order to have a large influence.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Cables and power form the foundation of the system. Once they are in place then the other items will only improve on the sound. Of course they must be equal to, or better, than the foundation in order to have a large influence.
Agreed!!! Power is the water as the cables are the roots that feed the plant of the rig you have created... -
Larry, you are sounding like an audiophile fortune cookie!:cheesygrin: But an accurate fortune it is.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."![:\](https://forum.polkaudio.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Good grief...cables & power as the foundation???? For real?"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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I do realize that everything in the chain makes a difference but I wanted to get opinions on which of the three made the most dramatic improvement in people's rigs based on their own experimentation.
It could be any of the three, depending on which equipment you are adding/removing from the chain. For instance if I had a super nice DAC and amp and a crappy pre, then swapped the crappy pre for a super nice pre, that would make a bigger difference than if I upgraded the DAC or amp. However if I had a super nice pre and amp and a crappy DAC, then of course upgrading the DAC would make the most noticeable difference. So the answer is that whatever change makes the most difference will make the most difference.
But I think I understand the overall nature of the question. Given equipment considered to be in the same tier, I would say the pre makes the most difference, followed closely by the DAC, then the amp a distant third. This has been my experience anyway.
While changing from a good DAC to an excellent DAC can change a merely OK system to a stellar system, the pre has the most potential to detract from the sound. If you have an inferior pre, it will act like a boat anchor for your system, holding it back no matter what you pair it with. So that's what I would concentrate on first if I was building a 2-channel system.
But then again I believe the best pre is no pre at all. There may be some disagreement here, but IMO a solid-state pre can do nothing to add to the sound to make it sound better--it only has the potential to take away from it. A pre is there to provide you with the convenience of source-switching, volume controls, and *cough* tone controls. IMO tone controls are evil and should never be used. Synergy among the other equipment should be sought after in order to achieve a sound that you like without tone controls--bright/warm amps, speakers, etc. If you can eliminate the need for source switching as well, then really all you need is a volume control, which can be achieved by the variable outputs on the DAC, eliminating the need for a pre altogether and greatly simplifying your signal chain and sound quality. My 2-channel rig is set up this way, with the variable outputs from the DAC connected directly to the amp. My zero-dollar non-existent pre-amp sounds better than any of the multitudes of multi-dollar pre-amps I have auditioned in my 2-channel rig.
Note I did limit that paragraph to solid-state pres. If tube buffers are your thing, then a tube pre may be up your alley, although in that case I would probably still go straight from the variable outputs on the DAC into a dedicated tube buffer, then directly to the amp from there.
RT-12, CS350-LS, PSW-300, Infinity Overture 1, Monoprice RC-65i
Adcom GFA-545II, GFA-6000, Outlaw Audio 990, Netgear NeoTV
Denon DCM-460, DMD-1000, Sony BDP-360, Bravia KDL-40Z4100/S
Monster AVL-300, HTS-2500 MKII -
audiocr381ve wrote: »My first "WHOA" moment came when I plugged in the Adcom GFP-750 preamp.
The GFP-750 was the biggie for me thus far. My GFA-585 is due to ship Monday morning so I am hoping for WHOA moment number two. -
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I know even Charlie can't believe someone would make such a dumb statement. :rolleyes:"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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pearsall001 wrote: »It's the room...period. Great speakers, great gear are all nice but the room is the biggest contributing factor when it comes to the final sound we hear.
Right on the money -
pearsall001 wrote: »I know even Charlie can't believe someone would make such a dumb statement. :rolleyes:
Dude relax, we are just having fun. Don't take everything so serious!! We all know there is more to it then just that.. -
As this thread got older, it got a little more off topic. I didn't want it to be a debate about speakers, room treatments, cables etc. I was limiting the discussion to electronics; Pre, amp, DAC. My question was if all three were of equal quality, which has the ability to influence sound the most. A few people responded within the scope of my question. Here are the results:
1. Pre (7 people) - most added tube pre
2. Dac (3 people)
3. Amp (2 people)
I realize everything in the chain matters but in my experience some matter more than others. For me speakers are # 1 and alway will be. I was just curioius what others thought about electronics since we tend to spend a lot in that area.
Thanks all for your responses!!!
ChrisRig1 - Totem Hawks, Benchmark HDR, Parasound A21, Sonus, Samsung 52 LCD, Audioquest Type4
Rig2 - LFD LE IV Integrated, Harbeth P3ESR, Rega Dac, MF V-Link, IMAC, Audioquest Type4 -
...I realize everything in the chain matters but in my experience some matter more than others...
It depends on so many factors though. Equal quality? Eh, that can be debatable. Trees through the forest CCNJ. Trees through the forest. Everything affects everything and it completely depends on what you are looking for, what gear you are currently using, synergy factor along with so many other factors....
Your original question becomes a loaded one that will never be truly answered due to the infinite amount of variables.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
not truly infinite though, based upon the parameters set forth by the OP. there is a finite set of gear possibilities, and therefore a finite limit of possibility, as judged in a qualitative manner based upon what sounds good to the OP's ear.It depends on so many factors though. Equal quality? Eh, that can be debatable. Trees through the forest CCNJ. Trees through the forest. Everything affects everything and it completely depends on what you are looking for, what gear you are currently using, synergy factor along with so many other factors....
Your original question becomes a loaded one that will never be truly answered due to the infinite amount of variables.
Tom
that being said, i have used three different power amps, 2 different DACS, and 2 pre amps. all of the changes made all kinds of difference, and i didn't have the opportunity to have all 7 peices of gear to play with at the same time, but i believe they all alter things somewhat equally based on what i have heard. its not just one, or three, or 6 pieces of gear..... its how they all work together, that annoying synergy thing. i think its a long road, and i think that's why we all roll gear like we do, because it is rarely perfect.... well, not in my price range. and i think many of the changes are subtle but important, and i don't think i will be able to narrow it down to one piece of gear.
that being said, i love my Schiit better than my Matrix....
i like what i have together now the best so far, and it is what is in my signature. but my next step is a new pre amp. while i do enjoy this Acurus line stage for its "accuracy" and "detail"... i think it may be a tad thin and harsh. my old NAD 1020 actually sounds warmer and fuller, but is old, in need of refreshing, and sounds quite veiled. i would very much like to try the Dared 2000a tube pre, and based upon what i have read, this may be the biggest audible change i make yet, outside of the speakers.Polk Lsi9
N.E.W. A-20 class A 20W
NAD 1020 completely refurbished
Keces DA-131 mk.II
Analysis Plus Copper Oval, Douglass, Morrow SUB3, Huffman Digital
Paradigm DSP-3100 v.2 -
not truly infinite though, based upon the parameters set forth by the OP. there is a finite set of gear possibilities, and therefore a finite limit of possibility, as judged in a qualitative manner based upon what sounds good to the OP's ear.
Here's the OP...I want to limit the discussion to electronics and remove speakers, source, room treatments and cables from the discussion. Which of the following three components do you feel has the greatest ability to influence sound quality in a two channel setup. I welcome any supporting comments or anecdotes.
Preamp
DAC
Power Amp
That said,treitz3 wrote:It depends on so many factors though. Equal quality? Eh, that can be debatable. Trees through the forest CCNJ. Trees through the forest. Everything affects everything and it completely depends on what you are looking for, what gear you are currently using, synergy factor along with so many other factors....
Your original question becomes a loaded one that will never be truly answered due to the infinite amount of variables.
Tom
With a previous post of mine in mind, please explain to us how things can not be truly infinite. There are so many variables that can influence the end result. Impedance, tubes, cables, power, room, treatments, isolation, acoustics, synergy, listener preference and I could go on...
With each component or factor changing things for the better or worse, how could it not be infinite?
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
um, because the op asked to limit it to 3 pieces of gear.
i don't disagree there is a much wider scope of variables...i was pretty clear on limiting it to the OP's scope.Polk Lsi9
N.E.W. A-20 class A 20W
NAD 1020 completely refurbished
Keces DA-131 mk.II
Analysis Plus Copper Oval, Douglass, Morrow SUB3, Huffman Digital
Paradigm DSP-3100 v.2 -
Hello, Steve. I believe you missed my point. Even with the three pieces of gear, the infinite variables remain. Even if one thinks that all 3 pieces of gear offered on the OP are on a [considered by some] "even" playing field.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
ok. i apologize... when you say it that way, i think it makes more sense and i see your point. i perhaps oversimplified things. even limited to 3 pieces, synergy encompasses all including surroundings, and the same finite set of gear will sound completely different in a separate room?Hello, Steve. I believe you missed my point. Even with the three pieces of gear, the infinite variables remain. Even if one thinks that all 3 pieces of gear offered on the OP are on a [considered by some] "even" playing field.
TomPolk Lsi9
N.E.W. A-20 class A 20W
NAD 1020 completely refurbished
Keces DA-131 mk.II
Analysis Plus Copper Oval, Douglass, Morrow SUB3, Huffman Digital
Paradigm DSP-3100 v.2 -
Correct, sir.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
With the minor experience I have w/ my 2-chl gear it was the pre.I say was because the Onkyo p301 is a chl down and I have use my rx-v 665 as the pre and you do not have the ready if needed fine tuning of a stand alone pre.2chl- Adcom GFA- 555-Onkyo P-3150v pre/amp- JVC-QL-A200 tt- Denon 1940 ci cdp- Adcom GFS-6 -Modded '87 SDA 2Bs - Dynamat Ext.- BH-5- X-Overs VR-3, RDO-194 tweeters, Larry's Rings, Speakon/Neutrik I/C- Cherry stain tops Advent Maestros,Ohm model E
H/T- Toshiba au40" flat- Yamaha RX- V665 avr- YSD-11 Dock- I-Pod- Klipsch #400HD Speaker set-
Bdrm- Nikko 6065 receiver- JBL -G-200s--Pioneer 305 headphones--Sony CE375-5 disc
