What the hell were they thinking?

txcoastal1

It's a tax plain and simple, there is a 3-5% of special needs individuals, the rest will be wastsefully spent and squandered like every other gov't program. It pays the bills for the illegals, and lazy welfare people. Small business hiring will remain stagnant, big corporations will continue to move over seas and not hire and if they do it will be at lower wages.

America's economy is not in the at this time to handle the burden.

Do we need reform, absolutely...but lets clean up the crap and wasteful spending we already have in our gov't. Lets open the state borders for insurance sales. Let's put welfare people on drugs on a 3-strikes your out program, lets close the borders and reform immigration. Let's heavy crimnalize insurance and welfare fraud. Lets turn prisons into factories under private entities for the states and putting a small allowance for the institutionalized in a savings account so they have a 50/50 chance of being productive citizens when released, allowing these prisons to be self sufficient

A buddy of mine works as a private investigator for insurance fraud claims, he makes $80k plusexpenses a year working 4 days a week. 99.9% of these people are bleeding the system. He works for a small 30 investigator firm...multiply that 1000+ and you will see where part of the insurance companies burden are in the system.

The insurance companies have a hard enough time tracking this privately, but the gov't does not have the man power....all this costs alot of our money.

Conradicles

dkg999 wrote: »

so now we have the largest tax increase in history

bingo

Conradicles

txcoastal1 wrote: »

It's a tax plain and simple, there is a 3-5% of special needs individuals, the rest will be wastsefully spent and squandered like every other gov't program. It pays the bills for the illegals, and lazy welfare people. Small business hiring will remain stagnant, big corporations will continue to move over seas and not hire and if they do it will be at lower wages.

America's economy is not in the at this time to handle the burden.

Do we need reform, absolutely...but lets clean up the crap and wasteful spending we already have in our gov't. Lets open the state borders for insurance sales. Let's put welfare people on drugs on a 3-strikes your out program, lets close the borders and reform immigration. Let's heavy crimnalize insurance and welfare fraud. Lets turn prisons into factories under private entities for the states and putting a small allowance for the institutionalized in a savings account so they have a 50/50 chance of being productive citizens when released, allowing these prisons to be self sufficient

A buddy of mine works as a private investigator for insurance fraud claims, he makes $80k plusexpenses a year working 4 days a week. 99.9% of these people are bleeding the system. He works for a small 30 investigator firm...multiply that 1000+ and you will see where part of the insurance companies burden are in the system.

The insurance companies have a hard enough time tracking this privately, but the gov't does not have the man power....all this costs alot of our money.

Well said.

gdb

A much bigger waste of our dollars (and US lives too) was that foolish little foray into Iraq spearheaded by......well, you remember.

gp4jesus

Nooshinjohn: check out this doctor.

Google Stanislaw Burzynski. Thorough research will yield he been saving lives for 35 years. If he gets the credit he so richly deserves & the FDA, drug companies, & other "cancer research" wanna bees resign themselves to the truth, of course they'll look like fools & all the $$ will go to this guy.

Maybe he could save yor mom's life

goofyGAguy

gdb wrote: »

A much bigger waste of our dollars (and US lives too) was that foolish little foray into Iraq spearheaded by......well, you remember.

:rolleyes:

txcoastal1

gdb wrote: »

A much bigger waste of our dollars (and US lives too) was that foolish little foray into Iraq spearheaded by......well, you remember.

Not to contradict or justify but this was not a solo project...remember who was in congress when this invasion was voted into action.

I am not speaking to take sides both are crooked, just being a realist.

FYI- I am a small business owner and this Bill has been under my magnifying glass for 2 years. My wife and I were raised by poor families who never took a dime from the gov't. I am also a high school drop out who married into and we supported (4 children all now in or out of college now self sufficient individuals) and I'll be damned to be silent on the rights of our tax payers money to be squandered.

mystik610

The healthcare reform provisions have already caused health insurance rates to skyrocket, and given that a lot of the burden to finance the health insurance market falls on employers providing group insurance plans, there are pretty heavy economic implications involved. And if they think the health insurance exchanges are going to materially impact the cost of heath insurance, they're severely mistaken. Health insurance contracts are pretty much commodities....it's already a very price driven market with a lot of competition and very little product differentiation.

I'm all for increasing availability of healthcare, but the healthcare reform failed to address the real driver of the cost function: the cost of healthcare itself. My opinion is that if you're 'entitled' to healthcare by the government, then you have a social responsibility to take care of your health. Granted there many people out there suffering medical conditions that are out of their control, but the vast majority of health conditions out there are self-inflicted. Don't be surprised if the government decides to fine you for smoking or being overweight one day.

txcoastal1

Mystik you are correct
Our company's premiums jumped 23% about a 1-1/2 ago but before signing new agreements started discussing this with other business' and true with the others. These discussions went all the way to business' on the east coast and the same was true.

I will not mention the names of these companies but all of small businees owners were forced to jump to other insurance companies which are premiums are lower but the individuals deductibles are higher. There is nothing in the books to control this especially with limited in state choices.

There are burdens in the system and until these burdens and froogle spending is controlled we will not be able to sustain this program.

Here is a scenario, back when I was in school there may have been a couple kids needing ritalin in the entire school. Now days 1 of 10 kids are being diagnosed for ADD or other issue which needs drugs and or medical supervision. Keep in mind these are 1 of 10 to young who don't pay into the system.

Then we have another 10 million undocumented people not paying, companies and corporations over 50+ employees receiving rebates which many of these business' already provide healthcare, 3-5% special needs, 10% unemployeed, stay at home husbands or wives, fraud (either patient or physicians) etc., gov't employees policing the system, physicians having to keep up with mandates and extra gov't paper work...I just don't see the break even point.

nooshinjohn

Txcoastal... don't leave out the ambulance chasing douchebag lawyers either. They have driven up the price of just about everything from car insurance, food and malpractice insurance. The wife and I had briefly given thought to buying a pharmacy from a retiring pharmacist until we found out that it would cost over 10k a month just to insure her. That did not even come close to covering the business itself fromvanything else. The net cost just to insure everything and the permits would have been over 250k/year. That figure alone would put us in the evil 1% club and we still would not have put a nickel in our pockets. MD's have in much worse, with the costs being over $300,000 per year, depending on the state and specialty.

Bottom line is that just about everything needs to be fixed in healthcare, from the top down and the bottom up. We cannot even get the effing potholes fixed correctly, so why on earth do I want them anywhere near a doctor's office?

jbooker82

I say let people opt out, and let hospitals deny services to any body not insured that cannot pay the cost of the procedure up front. Make people own up and stick to.decisions they have made.

Just think what would happen if we didn't have to buy auto insurance to drive or flood insurance if you live in a flood plane.

jbooker82

What about insurance companies dropping customers after they have been diagnosed. Once that person has been dropped they can't find another carrier that will take them. Is that fair?

jbooker82

nooshinjohn wrote: »

We cannot even get the effing potholes fixed correctly, so why on earth do I want them anywhere near a doctor's office?

Do you honestly believe that doctors are going to become government employees?

tonyb

Rubio put it pretty good.....if you don't buy health insurance,you now will have an IRS problem. The whole thing is designed to move masses of people onto a medicare system, which is already broke, opening the door for a single payer system. That has been the end game all along.

You always have to look behind the curtain for that wizard when dealing with legislation thats 2500 pages and nobody reads. People have to realize when government subsidizes anything, controls anything, prices go up not down. When government entered the college loan buisness, did tuition go up or down ? When they subsidized unemployment, did insurance costs go up or down ? When they got into the banking arena, did banking fee's go up or down ? Medicare ? ......up or down ? Solar companies ? Cost of panels went up, not down. Subsidize cell phones.....costs went up. Subsidize school lunches.....costs go up. Subsidize healthcare......costs will go up or you will be fined and possibly hunted down by the IRS if you don't pay.

Totally opposite of what was asked of them to do......to do something about the rising costs of HC. It was turned into a coverage problem instead. So the answer was give us a plan that raises costs and puts more of a burden on the system as a whole that is already held together by a shoestring. Create the crisis, provide the answer, and create another crisis. We just move from crisis to crisis without really solving anything......except how to bring more coin into the feds coffers and expand their power.

Could be a winning idea if you work for the feds, but the other 300 million of us get it up the arse. I'm not so keen on looking forward to a tax system much like Canada, or even Europe, to support a government run HC system/welfare system.

BlueFox

The majority were probably thinking that since the lunatic fringe is against it then it probably is a good thing.

Actually, I suspect Roberts is thinking of his legacy. After his partisan rulings that appointed King George the First (look how well that turned out), the ruling that individuals, not militias, have the right to fire-arms, and corporations are people who can make unlimited anonymous political contributions, he realized his historical record as Chief Justice is going, if not all ready there, into the toilet.

BlueFox

Yes. I agree. Thank you.

txcoastal1

jbooker82 wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that doctors are going to become government employees?

Have you seen the adopted criteria and paper work they will have to comply too

Anytime you include the Gov't in any project, triple the paper work....if the gov't was a well oiled machine maybe, but its a rusty bucket of bolts

mystik610

jbooker82 wrote: »

I say let people opt out, and let hospitals deny services to any body not insured that cannot pay the cost of the procedure up front. Make people own up and stick to.decisions they have made.

Just think what would happen if we didn't have to buy auto insurance to drive or flood insurance if you live in a flood plane.

Automobile liability insurance is required because you present a 3rd party liability risk to another person. Comprehensive Automobile insurance (the kind that covers you) is optional.

The interesting thing about flood insurance in flood plains is that the private insurance market won't touch it, and its actually provided by the federal government. It is not economically feasible to insure catastrophic type risks like flood insurance in flood plains, or health insurance for people with a medical history, without charging obscene premiums to all participants or putting the solvency of the insurance company at risk.

Personally, I think it would have been a better idea for the federal government to institute its own subsidized high health risk pool, to allow people with a medical history access to health insurance without directly passing the financial burden of insuring these exposures onto US employers, who are financing the grunt of our healthcare system. This is a big component of why the unemployment rates remain depressed as the financial markets make their recovery.....the cost to support an employee with salary + benefits has been going through the roof for the past two years.

Second to that, while Obamacare imposed itself upon the health insurance market, it did NOTHING to address our healthcare system itself. The cost of health insurance and the ability of the health insurance market to support the healthcare system is directly tied to the cost of underlying healthcare services being provided.....and there are glaring inefficiencies in our healthcare system that the politicians refuse to touch.

Instead we get a half-@ssed policy that does a lot philosophically, but at the end of the day, accomplishes very little in the grand scheme of our healthcare system as whole...and beyond that is already causing the cost of health insurance to skyrocket.

Drenis

I couldn't read through this whole thread. However, I think I have an understanding to the topic being discussed.

For myself, our healthcare is free. We don't pay into it directly but indirectly through taxes in a small way. The only disadvantage is the healthcare is crap. The service, the amount of doctors, the waiting times, people dying in the waiting rooms... I guess what I'm trying to say is, the US has SUPERIOR health care compared to Canada. Canadians pay to go to the states for procedures because:

A. It gets done quickly. Hardly any waiting times compared to here where you could wait 6 months for a CT scan.
B. People know that America has good doctors who go there for the money. Stuff is done right. Not to say it isn't here but we have one hospital specializing in doing hearts for the whole province.

I'm not sure how this new setup works or will cost most of you. But forgive my ignorance, why are some people stubborn about this? I don't have $100,000 for surgeries and medical costs if I'm in a serious car accident, but I'd rather pay a small amount to ensure I had the best care available anytime, anywhere.

There is no good reasoning for NOT having some sort of coverage. Don't some of you have stuff in place if you die? I certainly don't feel imposing a fine or jail time (was that even an option?) is the right procedure for people who are unsure or uncertain about a health care plan.

Conradicles

Drenis, you sir hit the nail on the head.

txcoastal1

We cannot have a succesful healthcare system until the folowing burdens are corrected or at the least minimalized piece by piece:
Fraud from all sides (doctors, lawyers, patients, welfare system)
Unproductive citizens-legal and illegal
Insurance companies crossing state lines
Pharmaceuticals and the lobbyists behind them
Medicade/Medicare reform
Mass unemployment
Frivolous gov't spending at all levels and both sides

There are to many holes in the proposal

There are many other items in the Obamacare bill that has nothing to do with healthcare, for example
We are going to be required to 1099 every company we make purchases from including example vendors like home depot, office depot etc. We travel while doing installations so if we need materials from a vendor we have never purchased from and will have to stop and fax/email then 1099 these entities at the end of the year. This takes alot of time and man power....there is alot of extra trash in this bill.

Doctors and hospitals have a ton of new paper work coming down the line with this new bill.

I would rather abolish IRS and move to some sort of flat tax, where those below the poverty line get a discount on nessessities, everyone else pays regular price, and when you purchase non essential you pay a flat tax. You want it, if you can afford it, you buy it, you pay tax, No loop holes.

Business' are beinging taxed to death, (buy an new computer, pay sales tax, annual asset tax)
Incorporate a have business-Property tax, employment tax, franchise tax, payroll tax, healthcare tax

goofyGAguy

jbooker82 wrote: »

What about insurance companies dropping customers after they have been diagnosed. Once that person has been dropped they can't find another carrier that will take them. Is that fair?

Would being able to buy homeowner's insurance the day after your house burns down be "fair"?

goofyGAguy

txcoastal1 wrote: »

I would rather abolish IRS and move to some sort of flat tax, where those below the poverty line get a discount on nessessities, everyone else pays regular price, and when you purchase non essential you pay a flat tax. You want it, if you can afford it, you buy it, you pay tax, No loop holes.

Business' are beinging taxed to death, (buy an new computer, pay sales tax, annual asset tax)
Incorporate a have business-Property tax, employment tax, franchise tax, payroll tax, healthcare tax

+10,000,000

steveinaz

The Affordable Healthcare Act isn't a poor plan because Barack Obama came up with it; it's a poor plan because it's a POOR PLAN. We can do far better than this, with less financial pain, but you've got to leverage the competitive market. We must separate employment from medical insurance. When your healthcare is tied to employment, you lose your job---you lose your coverage. The other downside is that YOU MUST use the provider your employer carries---IOW, no choice. Nothing spells poor service like a captive audience--another downside of employment tied healthcare. We need to leverage providers like we do with auto insurance. This makes pricing incredilbly competitive, service/satisfaction is much better---because the insurance company knows you'll drop them if not satisfied.

Dealing with those who can't either afford health insurance, or refuse to buy it will always be an issue. The U.S. has ALWAYS provided catestrophic care to everyone, and likely always will. Especially in this day & time where more and more people tend to take advantage of every single thing, and leave the rest of us to pay for it---to the frustration of those who do the right thing. Perhaps seperate legislation to deal with that issue is in need. I see no reason that the latter group (the slackers who refuse to buy insurance) can't be dealt with, with creative legislation. Perhaps a voucher system for the poor, much like food stamps (which, BTW contrary to popular belief is VERY effective and suffers minimal abuses when compared to other "topologies").

txcoastal1

^^^^^yes sir

DMara

Well, there's plenty of time to write to your House representatives / senators as well as to vote. Talking will not solve anything.

steveinaz

I do regularly communicate with my Reps, and I VOTE. I watch voting records closely of reps to weed out the "moles."

I want the old America back. Strong, self-sufficient people who didn't spend more time and effort cheating the system, then just holding down an honest job and pulling their weight. I want respect restored from foreign countries by having a leader with a backbone, that always puts AMERICANS first. I support the NRA and the Tea Party as a means to that end. While I have compassion for those less fortunate than I (dependant on reason), I would strictly administer any government hand-out program, and have zero tolerance for abusers of such programs. All programs would have a natural progression scale built-in, so they don't become a lifestyle. What happened to Americans that didn't do for themselves prior to 1920? They starved to death. Talk about motivation to get up off your ****, huh?

This very "sink or swim" mentality is what made (note: past tense) Americans and America SO GREAT. We ALL had a built-in drive to succeed, endure, and make things happen. No other society on the face of the planet was as driven as we; it was all we knew. We were hungry.

Now, the only thing we lead the world in is lawsuits. Pityful, isn't it? I'm tired of it.

goofyGAguy

steveinaz wrote: »

I support the NRA and the Tea Party as a means to that end.

If nothing else, yesterday's ruling should get the Tea Party kettle back at full boil.

steveinaz

Probably just the kick in the butt we needed to get re-energized.

steveinaz

Here's an example of fixing an abuse of the food stamp program. Currently, the latest "fad" of the worthless, is to sell their foodstamps on craigslist, then go back and get a replacement card, reporting the other one as "lost." Right now, we "gleefully" replace lost cards..(really?)

Oh, this is too easy. Do not issue replacement cards. You may go hungry once---possibly twice if you're hard-headed, but after that, you'd keep a tight hold of your card. Abuse, ended. I might implement a 1 time replacement policy, and/or if you were robbed and the card was lost, you would need to produce a police report to get a replacement. Like it or not, IMO when you are receiving government aide---YOU ANSWER TO THE TAXPAYERS---if you don''t like answering to the taxpayers, get off of assistance and GET A JOB.