For those who care about (cr)Apple

thsmith

As Americans we root for the underdogs and as soon as they make it to the top we love to knock them down.

I own them all, Iphone, droid, PC, Kindle and Mac Mini.

They all have their warts and good parts.

I love my Ipad (first gen) and as soon as the 3 hits the market or soon after I will get an Ipad 2 refurb.

As soon as my PC desktop starts to die or does die it will be replaced by a refurb Mini.

Syndil

thsmith wrote: »

As Americans we root for the underdogs and as soon as they make it to the top we love to knock them down.

It's not as simple as that. Americans are very susceptible to good marketing. That's it, in a nutshell.

thsmith

Syndil wrote: »

It's not as simple as that. Americans are very susceptible to good marketing. That's it, in a nutshell.

How do you figure ?

What is Apple marketing this is incorrect or untruthful ?

BTW, do you own an Ipad or used one for more than an hour?

I control My Mac Mini headlessly, read the news paper, surf the net, do alot of my work from home on my corporate network.

Oh yeah and I paid $249 for it.

Drenis

heiney9 wrote: »

Does the Apple store have nets around it so when the workers want to jump and commit suicide they don't go splat on the concrete? I bet the workers in the Apple store get paid 1000 X more than the people who assemble the iPads, iPhone and iPods in Foreign countries.

H9

P.s. It's Friday so I thought I'd stir the pot a little bit with current headlines.

No different from any other company out sourcing overseas to manufacture their products.

nspindel

Drenis wrote: »

No different from any other company out sourcing overseas to manufacture their products.

Precisely. I don't see the vitriol directed to the clothing industry, where Macy's store employees are being paid well for selling garments made in Chinese sweatshops, with much harsher working conditions and lower pay than the Apple assembly lines. I don't see people protesting outside of their local jewelry store, for selling jewels made of gold at $1600/ounce that was mined by slaves.

I'm not arguing that this isn't a problem. I'm arguing that it's not Apple's cross to bear. The global trade policies that have allowed currency-manipulating, $.50/day-paying, child-labor-allowing countries to produce and sell goods on the open market have decimated the American manufacturing base, which is the real root cause of all of our economic hardships. If there were good jobs out there for the middle class, there wouldn't have been a real estate collapse.

But place the blame where the blame is due. It's the politicians who have allowed this to happen, particularly those who are afraid to go head to head with the Chinese. Bill Clinton marshaled China into the World Trade Organization with open arms, with claims that an empowered China would create vast new markets into which American goods could be sold. Yeah. How'd that work out?

You can lambaste Apple all you want, but it's only because as you say, it's the headline of the week. The conditions on their foreign assembly lines and the wages paid to those workers are probably as good as it gets in an underdeveloped country.

nspindel

By the way, in the interest of full disclosure, I am a very proud, very happy Apple shareholder.

heiney9

Drenis wrote: »

No different from any other company out sourcing overseas to manufacture their products.

Except they didn't have several news stories about it. I'm just sayin', if they have billions and billions of dollars maybe reinvestment into working conditions or moving work sites might be a priority.

I don't doubt for a second many other companies do this, but they don't do it and then flaunt how cash flush they are. I also know now that it has come to light Apple is working towards making the conditions better. But still I'm sure they won't make it like working in the US nor will they move assembly here, because of the hit their profits would take.

Again, it's Friday and I'm just stirring the pot a little at Apple's expense, but I know they aren't the only ones exploiting the other world workers.

H9

heiney9

nspindel wrote: »

Precisely. I don't see the vitriol directed to the clothing industry, where Macy's store employees are being paid well for selling garments made in Chinese sweatshops, with much harsher working conditions and lower pay than the Apple assembly lines. I don't see people protesting outside of their local jewelry store, for selling jewels made of gold at $1600/ounce that was mined by slaves.

I'm not arguing that this isn't a problem. I'm arguing that it's not Apple's cross to bear. The global trade policies that have allowed currency-manipulating, $.50/day-paying, child-labor-allowing countries to produce and sell goods on the open market have decimated the American manufacturing base, which is the real root cause of all of our economic hardships. If there were good jobs out there for the middle class, there wouldn't have been a real estate collapse.

But place the blame where the blame is due. It's the politicians who have allowed this to happen, particularly those who are afraid to go head to head with the Chinese. Bill Clinton marshaled China into the World Trade Organization with open arms, with claims that an empowered China would create vast new markets into which American goods could be sold. Yeah. How'd that work out?

You can lambaste Apple all you want, but it's only because as you say, it's the headline of the week. The conditions on their foreign assembly lines and the wages paid to those workers are probably as good as it gets in an underdeveloped country.

Blah....blah....blah...

Blame everyone else, because everyone else is doing it it's ok. If you are a cash rich company that lavishly takes care of the top 1% of your workers and you can afford to make condtions better or use better labor (as in not exploited) then you have to bear some of that responsibility and not blame the politicians or the fact that that's the way it is in 3rd world countries.

Anyway, off my soap box

H9

nspindel

It's not the job of a corporation, any corporation, regardless of how cash rich they are, to improve the socioeconomic status of underdeveloped countries. A corporation exists for one reason, and one reason only: to make a profit for its' shareholders. If Apple does what Apple does very, very well and amasses a huge cash reserve on top of enormous gross margins, that's awesome. That's what they should be doing. Should they be sharing the wealth with the impoverished assembly line workers? Absolutely not. Why should they? That's my money. I'm a shareholder. I'm an owner of the business. Those profits are mine. Is that a harsh statement? No, I don't think so. It's called capitalism. That's how the system works.

To suggest that Apple somehow owes it's workers more that what they agreed to show up to work for, a distribution of the corporate profits back to the masses, sounds to me like socialism. If Apple are already paying it's outsourced labor force more than Dell, HP, etc., then why are they owed even more simply because the engineers in Cupertino have designed products that everyone wants to buy?

This country has been completely turned upside down. We're a capitalist country, and yet we demonize successful capitalists. Apple owes it's workers safe working conditions and a market wage. Same as every other company. Market wages are different in China than they are in the United States. That's a fact. It's not Apple's job to solve that problem. That's the government's problem to solve. Apple's place in the global economy is to create value for it's shareholders. And they do a great job of that, which is why I'm a happy shareholder.

heiney9

I am not asking them to "improve the socioeconomic development of these countries", I am asking them, since they apparently have more cash reserves than the government to realize what abhorent conditions are present there and if they are so disgusted with them to move assembly to a place where the workers aren't exploited. Don't as a corp act all outraged and disgusted and then continue business as usual with a few improvements that look good in the spotlight but don't really change anything.

It's not Socialism at all. They obviously were fine with the working conditions until it made the news, now they are disgusted and vow to make changes. I doubt they'd give a rats a$$ if the public weren't aware of it. Oh wait, they put nets up to catch the jumping workers. How nice.

H9

heiney9

Look Neil, I get where you are coming from and it's a problem for not just Apple. But they are in a position to make a difference and I think they should if they can. I am sort of playing devil's advocate because I do fall on both sides of the fence. I like inexpensive goods just as much as anyone else and yes, moving labor to 3rd world countries has hurt our economy a lot.

H9

Drenis

heiney9 wrote: »

Except they didn't have several news stories about it. I'm just sayin', if they have billions and billions of dollars maybe reinvestment into working conditions or moving work sites might be a priority.

I don't doubt for a second many other companies do this, but they don't do it and then flaunt how cash flush they are. I also know now that it has come to light Apple is working towards making the conditions better. But still I'm sure they won't make it like working in the US nor will they move assembly here, because of the hit their profits would take.

Again, it's Friday and I'm just stirring the pot a little at Apple's expense, but I know they aren't the only ones exploiting the other world workers.

H9

I hear where your argument is with that and I agree.

So let's expand on this... take Polk for example who manufacture their products in China. Ask the same questions that you would for the Foxconn factory or whoever builds Apple's products. What are there work conditions like? One can only assume that it's all the same. I could be wrong.

heiney9

To one degree or another I'm sure. And if Directed had billions and billions of dollars in the bank, I'd expect to same of them to perhaps look at moving assembly to a better area of the world where there wasn't so much exploitation and poor working conditions. Just because that market exists doesn't mean it's right to use it. That's all I'm saying. I'm tired of the blame game. If it's so abhorent and a company like Apple has the ability to change it by moving assembley somewhere where the conditions are better (culturally speaking) then I'd think it'd be prudent for them to do so.

H9

nspindel

heiney9 wrote: »

I am not asking them to "improve the socioeconomic development of these countries", I am asking them, since they apparently have more cash reserves than the government to realize what abhorent conditions are present there and if they are so disgusted with them to move assembly to a place where the workers aren't exploited. Don't as a corp act all outraged and disgusted and then continue business as usual with a few improvements that look good in the spotlight but don't really change anything.

It's not Socialism at all. They obviously were fine with the working conditions until it made the news, now they are disgusted and vow to make changes. I doubt they'd give a rats a$$ if the public weren't aware of it. Oh wait, they put nets up to catch the jumping workers. How nice.

H9

Who says the working conditions are abhorrent, though? My read on all of that was it was a bunch of hype. When all of this media attention began, Apple didn't come out and say "You're right. We have been exploiting underprivileged workers and we're going to stop doing that." They came out and said, "Exploitation of underprivileged workers is disgusting to us, and we would never do this. We audit our supply chain carefully, and would sever ties with any vendor in our supply chain if we found that they were doing this."

They brought in the Fair Labor Association to perform an independent audit of their supply chain, and the FLA said that the biggest danger posed to workers on Apple's assembly line comes from boredom associated with endless repetition of the same task.

Go watch the Nightline episode from a few weeks ago, where they were allowed in to the Foxconn facilities and filmed the iPad assembly line. Conditions were clean, safe, and quiet. Countless workers were interviewed during the audit, and there was no finding of any sort of abhorrent working conditions.

One could argue that the dormitory housing is quite cramped. But then they ran a segment showing the types of environments that these workers came from. Large families packed into small huts, sleeping on dirt floors, picking rice for pennies. Then they talked to the families of people employed in the Foxconn facilities, and the money that these workers are paid is improving the living conditions of these families, not just the workers themselves.

I've seen no hard evidence to suggest that any worker is being mistreated in any way. Just a bunch of media hype.

Is it "right" to manufacture products in these countries? Quite frankly, that's not Apple's call to make. Again, the government sets the trade policies, not an individual corporation. Apple cannot get up on some high horse and voluntarily pay a vendor 10X market rate so that their workers can get paid way above market wage, because it's the "right" thing to do. That's a misuse of shareholder capital. And they cannot go and voluntarily manufacture in a country with much higher labor costs because it's the "right" thing to do. That would place them at a huge competitive disadvantage to all the other companies who are still using an inexpensive labor force. The fact that they have billions in cash shouldn't matter. Demonizing success is fine if you're an Occupy Wall Street'er. Otherwise, it's to be praised.

These are problems that need to be solved at a regulatory level, not by one corporation with some supposed moral obligation to create a better world just because they are highly profitable. Apple's obligation is to the shareholders. That's how it works.

AsSiMiLaTeD

nspinel, I am tracking 100% with what you're saying and couldn't agree more.

nspindel

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/03/09/apple-investing-300-million-in-austin-texas-to-add-3600-more-workers/

ryanjoachim

nspindel wrote: »

Is it "right" to manufacture products in these countries? Quite frankly, that's not Apple's call to make.

Actually, it is ONLY Apple's call to make. If Apple is so appalled by the working conditions (as they've stated they are), then it obviously isn't "right" by their standards and morals. If that is the case, they should re-evaluate the condition of the countries they have workers in, and move away from them.

Just saying, "right" is just like beauty - it's in the eye of the beholder.

nspindel

Apple stated that it is appalled by abusive working conditions. They also stated that their working conditions are not abusive. They did not state that they are appalled by working conditions in China as a matter of generality. They said they are appalled by child labor. And they said that children are not working in their supply lines.

markmarc

Companies who use Foxxconn factories (quick search):
Acer Inc. (Taiwan)[32]
Amazon.com (United States)[33]
Apple Inc. (United States)[34]
Cisco (United States)[35]
Dell (United States)[36]
Hewlett-Packard (United States)[37]
Intel (United States)[38]
Microsoft (United States)[39]
Motorola Mobility (United States)[36]
Nintendo (Japan)[40]
Nokia (Finland)[34]
Samsung Electronics (South Korea)[41]
Sony (Japan)[42]
Toshiba (Japan) [43]
Vizio (United States)[44]

nspindel

Guess that about sums it all up....

BlueFox

Please, let's just stick with the facts. The iPod/Wadia is an excellent music server that provides a low cost audiophile level front-end for any stereo system. :cool:

heiney9

BlueFox wrote: »

audiophile level front-end for any stereo system. :cool:

Hmmmm.....doubtful, but then what's audiophile to you might not be audiophile to me. I can agree with MarkMarc in that it could form the basis for a nice office rig, with limitations.

In an audiophile system, again the definition must mean something different to you than me. We can just leave it at that. You rock on and enjoy it and I'll rock on and enjoy my rig.

H9

specd_out

I am not a apple fan. My main reason being, that apple product such as Ipad, Iphone and Ipod, Force you to use what comes on it. There is very little to no customization even if you jail break it. And I cant stand the freakin hipsters that put these items on such a high pedestal. They feel its the best and theres nothing better ever period. They only buy it because someone else has one and they want to fit in. Its a fantastic marketing plan by apple BTW.

I am an android fan. I like the fact that OS comes on all kinds of phones/tablets and I can choose one with all the features that fit me. Then from there I have the ability to customize the phone endlessly. If i want it to work and look like a Iphone I can, If i want it to look like a wp7 i can, if I want every icon custom colored and shaped and a android peeing on a apple boot image with a dos boot video I can. I couldnt last two years with a the same exact phone.

Now while I say the above I admit stock for stock ios is a little bit more refined and slightly quicker. If you decide to mod thats where android really shines. I will also say that I appreciate apple for pushing the market, and coming up with new tech. The leap frogging of the tech leaders is what gives us the customer all our cool new toys.

While I am a Android/Windows fan for the above reasons, I dont hate apple corp. I dont want then to ever leave the industry. I just wish the majority of its customers were not such dicks.

For your enjoyment.

It has some Language so be careful if at work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7yD-0pqZg

BlueFox

heiney9 wrote: »

In an audiophile system, again the definition must mean something different to you than me.

My audiophile definition in regard to digital music is bit perfect playback to an external DAC. Then the rest of the system takes over.

We can just leave it at that. You rock on and enjoy it and I'll rock on and enjoy my rig.

Yes.

AsSiMiLaTeD

specd_out wrote: »

I am not a apple fan. My main reason being, that apple product such as Ipad, Iphone and Ipod, Force you to use what comes on it. There is very little to no customization even if you jail break it. And I cant stand the freakin hipsters that put these items on such a high pedestal. They feel its the best and theres nothing better ever period. They only buy it because someone else has one and they want to fit in. Its a fantastic marketing plan by apple BTW.

I am an android fan. I like the fact that OS comes on all kinds of phones/tablets and I can choose one with all the features that fit me. Then from there I have the ability to customize the phone endlessly. If i want it to work and look like a Iphone I can, If i want it to look like a wp7 i can, if I want every icon custom colored and shaped and a android peeing on a apple boot image with a dos boot video I can. I couldnt last two years with a the same exact phone.

Now while I say the above I admit stock for stock ios is a little bit more refined and slightly quicker. If you decide to mod thats where android really shines. I will also say that I appreciate apple for pushing the market, and coming up with new tech. The leap frogging of the tech leaders is what gives us the customer all our cool new toys.

While I am a Android/Windows fan for the above reasons, I dont hate apple corp. I dont want then to ever leave the industry. I just wish the majority of its customers were not such dicks.

For your enjoyment.

It has some Language so be careful if at work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7yD-0pqZg

People that generalize and lump 'most' Apple customers together into one group as just as bad as the Apple fanboys.

nspindel

specd_out wrote: »

I am not a apple fan. My main reason being, that apple product such as Ipad, Iphone and Ipod, Force you to use what comes on it. There is very little to no customization even if you jail break it. And I cant stand the freakin hipsters that put these items on such a high pedestal. They feel its the best and theres nothing better ever period. They only buy it because someone else has one and they want to fit in. Its a fantastic marketing plan by apple BTW.

I am an android fan. I like the fact that OS comes on all kinds of phones/tablets and I can choose one with all the features that fit me. Then from there I have the ability to customize the phone endlessly. If i want it to work and look like a Iphone I can, If i want it to look like a wp7 i can, if I want every icon custom colored and shaped and a android peeing on a apple boot image with a dos boot video I can. I couldnt last two years with a the same exact phone.

Now while I say the above I admit stock for stock ios is a little bit more refined and slightly quicker. If you decide to mod thats where android really shines. I will also say that I appreciate apple for pushing the market, and coming up with new tech. The leap frogging of the tech leaders is what gives us the customer all our cool new toys.

While I am a Android/Windows fan for the above reasons, I dont hate apple corp. I dont want then to ever leave the industry. I just wish the majority of its customers were not such dicks.

For your enjoyment.

It has some Language so be careful if at work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7yD-0pqZg

You can't be serious. Let me see if I understand your premise. According to the latest sales figures, Apple has sold 315 million iOS devices to date. According to you, you wish "the majority of its customers were not suck dicks." So your point is there are in excess of 157,500,000 iOS-carrying dicks out there?

This is what I can't stand about the whole PC vs. Mac, and now Android vs. iOS debate. Apple customers generally come along and profess their happiness with the product they own. Then the PC/Android people come along saying that people who like Apple products are dicks and and are nothing more than suckers for good marketing.

Let me explain something to you. I am a software engineer. I have a Masters degree in Computer Science. I have been in the IT industry for over 20 years. I build trading systems in an investment bank using Microsoft SQL Server and .Net. I've used Windows since version 3.0 in 1990, and I used DOS for several years before that. The last pc that I bought was in 1991. After that, I built my own. Do you seriously think that I am now a happy Mac user because I am just a sucker for Apple's marketing ploys???

specd_out

I deal with these kind of people on a daily basis, alot of them just follow the follow and dont have any real reason to buy or not to buy a apple product. This more so applies to ipod,iphone, and tablet purchasers. people who are will to spend the extra dough on a mac book general have a good knowledge of what they want.

I am not trying to start a battle. I just said my piece and thats all. I respect your opinion you respect mine

ryanjoachim

nspindel wrote: »

Do you seriously think that I am now a happy Mac user because I am just a sucker for Apple's marketing ploys???

Yes. :cheesygrin:

Oh, seriously! No.
Maybe it's just because I never use them, but Apple's OS is totally confusing to me. I'm a computer technician myself, and have been for the last 10 years...but I just can't seem to figure out why they put settings and options where they do.

Syndil

The whole outrage over the working conditions at Foxconn is simply placation. In order to be competitive in the global capitalist market, companies are required to find the cheapest labor they can. If China decides to give into pressure and pass laws that will improve the working conditions at Foxconn or the rest of their millions of factories, then the cost of labor in China will go up, and soon companies will be looking elsewhere for labor. And by the way, it is China's responsibility to improve labor laws in China, not Apple's, and not Foxconn's. Companies will do whatever they can get away with to save money--not because they are evil, but because if they don't, their competitors will. They have to in order to compete. I have no problem with Apple using Foxconn, and I have no problem with Foxconn having a suicide problem. The workers there are voluntary--not slaves. You want to pity the workers at Foxconn, try thinking of the people who couldn't get a job at Foxconn. It's not like the USA where you can just decide to not work and live off of the welfare system, churning out babies in order to get more money. In China, either you know somebody, or you work. Otherwise you die of starvation. You can't fix Foxconn without fixing the whole country, and apparently China doesn't want to be fixed.

Syndil

ryanjoachim wrote: »

Yes. :cheesygrin:

Oh, seriously! No.
Maybe it's just because I never use them, but Apple's OS is totally confusing to me. I'm a computer technician myself, and have been for the last 10 years...but I just can't seem to figure out why they put settings and options where they do.

Oh, so you noticed that. OSX isn't really all that different from Windows. Instead of having a menu bar at the top of each Window, on a Mac, the menu bar is permanently docked at the top of the screen, and the contents of the menu bar change based on which Window has focus. The launcher bar at the bottom should be familiar to anyone, especially those who have used Linux. Not surprising since OSX is based on Unix. I service Macs as well as PCs, and once you learn where stuff is, they really are not all that different. So I roll my eyes whenever I hear someone wax poetic about how much easier a Mac is to use. It all depends on what you are used to. Some of the stuff on the Mac I find absolutely counter-intuitive, like ejecting a disk by moving it to the trash can. I don't want to delete it, I want to eject it! You sure I should put it in the trash??