New Setup, same old results..

Anon

I just bought a new setup recently, however I'm having some difficulty getting the desired output.. I've connected everything correctly and have optimized the speaker placement in my 15x13 media room. However, upon running a DVD for the first time to test everything out I find I'm having to turn the volume up practically all the way (-17.0 db), to get it loud enough to understand the dialogue. That and it seems to be lacking in the oomph dept.. What I'm getting so far, is comparable to my 8 year old, 400 Watt, Sony HTIB. I know these speakers and receiver are capable of more than this, so I'm a little aggravated at the results thus far. I used Yamaha's YPAO auto-calibration to tune the speakers and currently have the Surround Decode preset on. I've tinkered with the presets a bit, as well as the audio settings in my PS3 but to no avail I seem to be hitting a roadblock. My knowledge is intermediate and basic at best and am just getting into the HT venue. However I'd greatly appreciate any help or advice someone can offer. My setup is listed in my signature below.

EndersShadow

Post some pics if you can. Those will be the most help for us. Even a hand drawn pic of your layout would help.

And what do you mean by umph? Are you saying your not getting enough bass, or that the overall sound isnt dynamic enough?

Anon

Both. Sound doesnt feel dynamic nor does the bass. Actually best sound I've gotten so far was through the calibration, which leads me to believe its a settings issue.

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jbooker82

What frequency is the cross overs set at?

wutadumsn23

Setup looks soild, have you adjusted the speaker levels manually? That CS10 MAY be part of the lack of output. Something like 75% of all audio tracks are formatted to be played through the center channel, make sure that guy is turned up in your settings and entertain the option of trying a CS20.... Just a thought. Welcome to the Forum.

-Jeff

Anon

wutadumsn23
Setup looks soild, have you adjusted the speaker levels manually? That CS10 MAY be part of the lack of output. Something like 75% of all audio tracks are formatted to be played through the center channel, make sure that guy is turned up in your settings and entertain the option of trying a CS20.... Just a thought. Welcome to the Forum.

Thanks for the welcome. I haven't set anything manually, just running off YPAO's calibrated settings. What should I try adjusting on the center? I'm a novice in the A/V department but am learning. :redface:

jbooker82
What frequency is the cross overs set at?

If I understand you correctly, I haven't messed with any of the settings in the receiver manually. Just theme presets, i.e. "Spectacle", Surround Decode" and so on. Yamaha is extremely vague in their manuals, so I'm still navigating the GUI.

BlueFox

What size speaker wire is that, and what is the length?

Also, your receiver is more suited for a small bedroom versus the large room you are in. It is a budget AVR, and is probably putting out 30-40W/ch. It definitely is not putting out 105W x7 channels. Turning it up will probably distort and clip at higher levels.

jbooker82

There should be some type of Speaker configuration menu. There should be setting for the cross over points.

Anon

What size speaker wire is that, and what is the length?

Also, your receiver is more suited for a small bedroom versus the large room you are in. It is a budget AVR, and is probably putting out 30-40W/ch. It definitely is not putting out 105W x7 channels. Turning it up will probably distort and clip at higher levels.

16-Gauge wire and longest is 10 feet. I wouldn't call it a budget receiver by any means and I think 30-40/ch., is a little low of a call. I won't rule out the possibility but this is ideal for the room. I had just bought this house and the person who had it before me was using a lower-end Yamaha and 5 and a quarters all around and was still churning out a more than acceptable output.

There should be some type of Speaker configuration menu. There should be setting for the cross over points.

Still trying to locate that..

jbooker82

Should be something like this.

Menu>Speaker>Configuration> You then have the option to select Front, Center, Surround, Surround Back.

You should be able to select the size speaker size. Ethire Large or Small. I believe with them set to Large they are set to full range. So you will get hardly any bass from the sub. If you set them to small then you can later set the bass crosover settings.

To get to the bass cross over settings you go here.

Menu>Speaker>Configuration>Subwoofer>Bass Cross Over Freq
This is kind of an odd place to put it under the subwoofer settings when it controls how low the front speakers play.

Your other option is to turn extra bass on
Menu>Speaker>Configuration>Subwoofer>Extra Bass
This should allow you to have your front speakers produce low tones along with having the subwoofer produce them. With my Onkyo the only way I can use this feature is if the Front speakers are set to Full Range (or Large).

Anon

Thanks JB for the help. I tried setting the settings differently and to no avail, still much of the same. Starting to think BlueFox may have been right.. Am I looking at low-grade speakers as the issue or the AVR is just lacking too much to drive the speakers? And what is a good suggestion to upgrade, speakers or receiver?

jbooker82

Well you could really up grade the sub to one that would deliver more impact. You can get the DSW Pro 660wi on sale from new egg at a really good price.

As for better detail in the dialogue you could try Polk RTI line up for the front 3 speakers. Maybe RTI A5 towers and a CSI A4 center. You will need a good sub since the rti a5's do not have woofers. Well honestly you need a good sub period.

jbooker82

You could start out by trying a csi a4 center to see if it cures your dialogue problem before committing to purchasing the RTI A5's. If you decide to keep the csi a4 then it would be highly recommend to get rti a's for the L&R speakers. That way all 3 fronts will be voice matched.

polkfarmboy

I love that big huge screen bud. How many inches ?

Wish I could help with the problems

Anon

jbooker82 wrote: »

Well you could really up grade the sub to one that would deliver more impact. You can get the DSW Pro 660wi on sale from new egg at a really good price.

As for better detail in the dialogue you could try Polk RTI line up for the front 3 speakers. Maybe RTI A5 towers and a CSI A4 center. You will need a good sub since the rti a5's do not have woofers. Well honestly you need a good sub period.

Yeah I definitely need to upgrade the sub. But I can live with the bass for now. My main gripe is the dialogue. I keep feeling like my biggest problem is the receiver. The fact that I'm having to turn the volume up so high, just to get the dialogue audible enough, drives me crazy. I've been told that the speakers I do have are solid enough and the 571 is more likely the culprit and that the 571 is more of a polished **** than a decent AVR.. But these are just opinions and more hearsay, as no one I know owns one. However, if it really is lacking, would upgrading to a 667 or 671 make much of a difference? Or is the limitation with the speakers alone? Someone I know also had mentioned an amplifier but I haven't explored that option yet.

polkfarmboy wrote: »

I love that big huge screen bud. How many inches ?

Wish I could help with the problems

Thanks. 100" I believe.

tonyb

Go into your receivers speaker level menu, turn the center channel level up to about +3 and see how that sounds. While your in there,check the other levels on the other speakers. If any are in the negative,bring them up to 0 and go from there. Also check your subwoofer settings and level. Sometimes you have to boost that sub by +5, depending on your receiver. From what you describe, I want to say you have a settings issue. Try the speaker levels first then we'll tackle the crossover settings.

mantis

Ok sounds to me like a setup and calibration issue to me.
1) Recalibrate the system using YPAO. Make sure there is no noise at all when you calibrate. If there is anything that the mic can pick up sound wise your calibration will fail.
2) check the setting in the Ps3. I'm thinking you don't have it setup properly like turning on Dolby Digital and DTS in the settings under Audio settings. make sure all audio settings are correct. It's been awhile since I owned the PS3 maybe someone in here who has one can walk you through the entire setup procedure. This could very well be the entire problem.

Your center channel is matched to your main channel speakers just fine. If you wanted to upgrade the center , it would be a bad idea nor would getting a better subwoofer. These 2 things can make or break your system. But try the settings and calibration before buying anything.

gidrah

How does it sound with a different source such as FM?

Anon

tonyb wrote: »

Go into your receivers speaker level menu, turn the center channel level up to about +3 and see how that sounds. While your in there,check the other levels on the other speakers. If any are in the negative,bring them up to 0 and go from there. Also check your subwoofer settings and level. Sometimes you have to boost that sub by +5, depending on your receiver. From what you describe, I want to say you have a settings issue. Try the speaker levels first then we'll tackle the crossover settings.

I know for a fact that some of the levels for some of the speakers, were set at negative, last time I navigated the GUI. I will tinker with the speaker level, once I return home tomorrow and see if I get any changes.

mantis wrote: »

Ok sounds to me like a setup and calibration issue to me.
1) Recalibrate the system using YPAO. Make sure there is no noise at all when you calibrate. If there is anything that the mic can pick up sound wise your calibration will fail.
2) check the setting in the Ps3. I'm thinking you don't have it setup properly like turning on Dolby Digital and DTS in the settings under Audio settings. make sure all audio settings are correct. It's been awhile since I owned the PS3 maybe someone in here who has one can walk you through the entire setup procedure. This could very well be the entire problem.

Your center channel is matched to your main channel speakers just fine. If you wanted to upgrade the center , it would be a bad idea nor would getting a better subwoofer. These 2 things can make or break your system. But try the settings and calibration before buying anything.

Tried using the YPAO again but I think it is picking up my AC kicking on, when it starts, that and I have 2 little ones, whose rooms are less than 15 feet either direction.. I'm hard-pressed to get enough silence for calibration. So it looks like manual settings may be my best route. However I did indeed check all settings on the PS3. DTS and Dolby Digital are on. The only selection I had an issue with, was PCM or Bitrate. It is currently set at PCM. I tried Bitrate and didn't notice a difference.

gidrah wrote: »

How does it sound with a different source such as FM?

Yeah, as a matter of fact I did get a decent output via FM. I also had great output during the calibration. Which led me to believe it was either settings or the input source, being the PS3. However I haven't changed anything since I had the PS3 connected to my Sony HTiB, prior to this and verified all the settings, once I connected to the AVR and changed the signal source. I have HDMI carrying the audio and video out from the PS3 into the AVR and HDMI, carrying the audio and video signal out from the AVR, to my projector.

TNHNDYMAN

Anon,

Although there are better speakers in Polk's lineup, your speakers are not the main issue- it is the speaker level settings most likely. Keep in mind most calibration programs in the AVR are geared toward a movie reference level. This gives great effects when the source material is optimally mixed for it, but in most day to day TV programs ect. they are not mixing sound to that level. I started w/ a CS1 center and have upgraded to a larger CS2 and have been able to get excellent results w/ both. The smaller center will need to have its output level increased for most day to day material. You stated FM sounded ok, probably because your AVR automatically switched to 2 ch stereo mode w/ the surrounds and center out of the mix. The front speakers obviously have the ability to play at adequate levels. Try a blu ray movie with a known quality soundtrack and see if your surrounds and sub sound ok. If all is well there, then you need to just adjust the level of your center speaker. In my denon it has multiple settings you can save for different sources and the Yamaha most likely has similar. It should be fairly easy to tweak individual levels at any time and then revert to the auto cal settings whenever you need to. Send the kids to a movie, unplug your fridge if its anywhere near the AVR, turn off ac/heatpump, then recalibrate as indicated in the manual. Calibration only gets you to a good starting place, after that you have to be smarter than the AVR and familiar enough with all settings to manipulate them to whatever parameters suite your needs. I understand manuals can leave alot to be desired (especially Denon's), find a forum specific to Yamaha AVR and learn from others who have dealt w/ similar issues. I've had good sucess learning in the forums on AVS your results may vary. Please master the settings first before spending more money on other equipment. It's true you are starting out w/ a lower level AVR and mid level speakers- but they should be more than adequate for 95% of users out there. You must get the most out of what you have before you can determine what's truly holding you back in order to upgrade at a latter date to improve your system. If you can't drive a manual transmission and are unhappy w/ how fast your car accelerates, going out to buy a Ferrari won't help you much until you go to driving school. A better center (a huge amount of sound material will utilize this speaker) will help your system down the road, but you have to have your system set up properly first to truly get better results. Good luck in your efforts and keep us updated.

reeltrouble1

well, you really dont know what your SPL is at your listening position, I would get a SPL meter from Radio Shack they are about 30.00 and set each speaker with it...A weighting Fast Response, you can use the test white noise from your AVR or buy special discs with sound generators and do some sweeps, if you use the white noise start out by adjusting each speaker to 75 db, you can adjust from there if you like but begin with everything balanced. When it is all balanced see what gain level you AVR reads...this will be your base setting for movies and you can adjust your individual trim settings for each speaker or overall gain from there.

Have fun.

RT1

Anon

Thank you all for the input and help. I did some tinkering around with the settings after no resolution running YPAO auto-calibration a 2ndluxury time and here's what I have so far..

2 front speakers are set to LARGE
0.0db

Center is set to SMALL
0.0 db

2 surrounds are set to SMALL
-2.0db

Sub is set to USE
2.0db

Still trying to tweak and produce the range Im looking for. Haven't touched the crossover settings for the sub yet..

jbooker82

Anon wrote: »

Haven't touched the crossover settings for the sub yet..

You really dont want to. It needs to be set at 120 hz or so. That setting in the avr isnt a cross over. It is a low pass filter. The 1 in 5.1 is the Low Frequency Effects sound track. The LFE track contains sounds from 120 hz and down. Since it is a low pass fitler is will not redirect sounds. It simply blocks sounds. So if you set the LFE to 80 hz or what ever you will not hear sounds from 80hz to 120hz. It will not re route that sound to the towers, it simply blocks it.

Anon

Yamaha Well, I've decided to go ahead and replace the receiver and wanted to get a few opinions on which one may be the better choice. I've narrowed it down to the following:

Yamaha RX-V671
Pioneer VSX 1021-K
Denon AVR1912

Anon

86 the "Yamaha" at the beginning of my post.. I was using my phone to post and the ever-so-annoying auto-complete, has a mind of it's own..

Tour2ma

jbooker82 wrote: »

The LFE track contains sounds from 120 hz and down. Since it is a low pass fitler is will not redirect sounds. It simply blocks sounds. So if you set the LFE to 80 hz or what ever you will not hear sounds from 80hz to 120hz. It will not re route that sound to the towers, it simply blocks it.

With the Mains set to "large" nothing is blocked to the towers whatever the Sub woofer crossover. So there is no "hole"... and, yes, I said cross-over, which is how I have always understood the function.

If the mains are set to "small", then the LFE setting routes all main frequencies below it's setting to the sub... all above to the mains... kinda sounds cross-overish to me.

Anon,
Only skimmed the thread, so might be duplcating some rec's, but...

If you haven't optimized your sub's placement, definitely spend some time doing this. Download a LF sweep... nab a SPL Meter as rt1 rec'd... and go. Search "Doc Spec" posts for the best sub calibration guides "round" here.

Then, if you haven't tried setting your 300's to small... try it. I'd start around 70 Hz and move up from there... maybe go as high as 90 Hz. Again old Doc Spec threads will offer details.

Have fun...

jbooker82

Tour2ma wrote: »

With the Mains set to "large" nothing is blocked to the towers whatever the Sub woofer crossover. So there is no "hole"... and, yes, I said cross-over, which is how I have always understood the function.

If the mains are set to "small", then the LFE setting routes all main frequencies below it's setting to the sub... all Iabove to the mains... kinda sounds cross-overish to me.
...

That is correct for the towers. The LFE is an entire sound track specifically for subwoofers. The sound from the the LFE track will not be routed to the towers. The setting for LFE is a low pass filter not a crossover.

reeltrouble1

bruce...your right..it's a C is for Cookie thing.

RT1

Tour2ma

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

..it's a C is for Cookie thing.

Dat's good enough for me...

Thanks, Ted...

jbooker82

Then I guess Audyssey has no clue what they are talking about.

http://ask.audyssey.com/entries/321931-lpf-on-lfe#overview

jbooker82

http://ask.audyssey.com/entries/230307-lfe-setting#overview