New Setup, same old results..

Mr. Bubbles

Anon wrote: »

I know for a fact that some of the levels for some of the speakers, were set at negative, last time I navigated the GUI. I will tinker with the speaker level, once I return home tomorrow and see if I get any changes.



Tried using the YPAO again but I think it is picking up my AC kicking on, when it starts, that and I have 2 little ones, whose rooms are less than 15 feet either direction.. I'm hard-pressed to get enough silence for calibration. So it looks like manual settings may be my best route. However I did indeed check all settings on the PS3. DTS and Dolby Digital are on. The only selection I had an issue with, was PCM or Bitrate. It is currently set at PCM. I tried Bitrate and didn't notice a difference.




Yeah, as a matter of fact I did get a decent output via FM. I also had great output during the calibration. Which led me to believe it was either settings or the input source, being the PS3. However I haven't changed anything since I had the PS3 connected to my Sony HTiB, prior to this and verified all the settings, once I connected to the AVR and changed the signal source. I have HDMI carrying the audio and video out from the PS3 into the AVR and HDMI, carrying the audio and video signal out from the AVR, to my projector.

I am in no way familiar with the Yamaha model you have but I use an old Yamaha DSP 3090 (OK, VERY OLD) in a 16x24 room and had no issues when using it as the only amplification for the theater setup, so i wouldn't think the receiver is the issue even if it is lacking compared to other models.

My unit has an input attenuator for external devices. if your unit has that feature check it and be sure the input level is not turned down for the PS3. if it is the levels will definitely be low. As one of the other guys mentioned; try setting the mains to small. I got a lot of phase shift between my sub/s with mine set to large. but as one f the other guy's mentioned also, try different sub locations to optimize it's positioning. This WILL make a HUGE difference for the bass. Check the center delay for proper setting of the corrected difference. this will have some (although minor) effect on phase shift between the mains and center, which ultimately effects the output levels at some frequencies. The recommendation of the Radio Shack SPL meter is a very good idea as it will help you balance things manually. but either way when you make adjustments either automatically or manually, turn the AC off and wait till the kids go to bed or send them away for a while, and don't forget any pets. Get everything else as quiet as possible so you are only measuring the sound system and nothing else. If not you are wasting your time.

If you like the features and sound of the receiver (after you find the problem) but want more volume or dynamics you can always use it as a pre and add additional amplification to all or some of the channels. I did this with a couple of inexpensive vintage Onkyo amps and it made a huge improvement for very little cost. I use one of the Onkyo's for the right main and right rear and the other for the left main and left rear with the Yamaha's internal main amp channels driving the bi-amp inputs on the center. This configuration (I believe) takes a lot of strain off of all the power supplies since using one amp for the right ad left combines a main channel with a rear that has much less information and the center draws from 2/5 th's the channels the Yamaha is capable of. This improved the dynamics of my system greatly ( not the overall volume) for a low investment.

Good luck.

Anon

oliverbubbles wrote: »

I am in no way familiar with the Yamaha model you have but I use an old Yamaha DSP 3090 (OK, VERY OLD) in a 16x24 room and had no issues when using it as the only amplification for the theater setup, so i wouldn't think the receiver is the issue even if it is lacking compared to other models.

My unit has an input attenuator for external devices. if your unit has that feature check it and be sure the input level is not turned down for the PS3. if it is the levels will definitely be low. As one of the other guys mentioned; try setting the mains to small. I got a lot of phase shift between my sub/s with mine set to large. but as one f the other guy's mentioned also, try different sub locations to optimize it's positioning. This WILL make a HUGE difference for the bass. Check the center delay for proper setting of the corrected difference. this will have some (although minor) effect on phase shift between the mains and center, which ultimately effects the output levels at some frequencies. The recommendation of the Radio Shack SPL meter is a very good idea as it will help you balance things manually. but either way when you make adjustments either automatically or manually, turn the AC off and wait till the kids go to bed or send them away for a while, and don't forget any pets. Get everything else as quiet as possible so you are only measuring the sound system and nothing else. If not you are wasting your time.

If you like the features and sound of the receiver (after you find the problem) but want more volume or dynamics you can always use it as a pre and add additional amplification to all or some of the channels. I did this with a couple of inexpensive vintage Onkyo amps and it made a huge improvement for very little cost. I use one of the Onkyo's for the right main and right rear and the other for the left main and left rear with the Yamaha's internal main amp channels driving the bi-amp inputs on the center. This configuration (I believe) takes a lot of strain off of all the power supplies since using one amp for the right ad left combines a main channel with a rear that has much less information and the center draws from 2/5 th's the channels the Yamaha is capable of. This improved the dynamics of my system greatly ( not the overall volume) for a low investment.

Good luck.

Thanks for taking the time to help. In regards to your AVR, holy crap, that is old! But in all respect and retrospect, they do not make them like they used to. I have a 15 year old Pioneer, coupled with 2 15's that often remind my neighbor's I'm still alive. :cool: But I'm still working on my newest addition.. I need to try a few more things, once all is connected, especially changing the speakers to small in the GUI, as Tour2ma had mentioned. I was unable to find anything regarding the use of an Input Attenuator in this model. Also, bass was not an extreme concern for me, as my main gripe was with the level of audio coming from the speakers at mid volume. I'm cranking it up to -23.0 db, after YPAO calibration, just to get it to a meager listening level.. And as it turns out I ended up changing my setup, as I took back the receiver I had originally settled on (RX-V571) and swapped it for the RX-V671. I also, opp'd in and purchased (2) Tsi500's and a CS20, replacing the CS10, taking wutadumsn23's suggestion into account. So with these additions my setup has changed, to (2) Tsi500's for the Fronts, CS20 for the Center, (2) Tsi300's for the Rears, (2) T15's for Surrounds and a PSW110 for the Sub. Now I'm more concerned on whether I'm putting too much of a strain on this receiver, given the change in setup. I'm not the most knowledgeable with the specs of home audio, so forgive me if my noobiness is showing :redface: but I could use some direction.

tonyb

Your receiver is fine for those speakers, but in the future if you wanted to upgrade the speakers you may have to sell that puppy and start over. No preouts to add an amplifier.

Anyway, at -23 for volume thats not unusual. My listening habits are around -18 on my receiver. Don't take the settings the auto calibration did as gospel. Go into your receivers menu and change the speaker level settings to your taste. Start at 0 and move up or down from there.

Syndil

Since no one has mentioned it yet, I would double check that your speakers are not wired out of phase, particularly your center channel. Even if you are sure everything is wired correctly, someone could have messed up at the factory. Easiest way to check is to throw in a DVD that has the THX Optimizer on it. A lot of them do, so you probably have it somewhere. I use Pirates of the Caribbean (the first one) for HT testing and I know it's on there.

I would also move your fronts a bit farther away from the walls--both front and side walls--to see if that helps, and not angle them towards the center. If the speakers are not out of phase as determined by the THX Optimizer, then it could be that the placement of them is causing a null within your room.

Also, are those satellites mounted above your mains?

Anon

tonyb wrote: »

Your receiver is fine for those speakers, but in the future if you wanted to upgrade the speakers you may have to sell that puppy and start over. No preouts to add an amplifier.

Anyway, at -23 for volume thats not unusual. My listening habits are around -18 on my receiver. Don't take the settings the auto calibration did as gospel. Go into your receivers menu and change the speaker level settings to your taste. Start at 0 and move up or down from there.

Thanks. Yeah I'm a little irked I didn't think about that beforehand.. But by the time I upgrade AVR's, the technology will likely have changed anyway. My main concern was just whether I'm getting enough out of the receiver, to optimize the speakers, while not burning it into the ground. I plan on spending more time with the settings, manually, as I've only used the YPAO calibration a few times and man does it SUCK! Not the most accurate and maybe a little over-cautious on adjusting the settings.. Lot of good these speakers do, if I'm listening to audio like I have a pillow over my head.. :eek: Nevertheless I'm learning.

Anon

Syndil wrote: »

Since no one has mentioned it yet, I would double check that your speakers are not wired out of phase, particularly your center channel. Even if you are sure everything is wired correctly, someone could have messed up at the factory. Easiest way to check is to throw in a DVD that has the THX Optimizer on it. A lot of them do, so you probably have it somewhere. I use Pirates of the Caribbean (the first one) for HT testing and I know it's on there.

I would also move your fronts a bit farther away from the walls--both front and side walls--to see if that helps, and not angle them towards the center. If the speakers are not out of phase as determined by the THX Optimizer, then it could be that the placement of them is causing a null within your room.

Also, are those satellites mounted above your mains?

Hello. Actually those are mounts, that the person who had the house prior to me, had their T100's. Was going to remove them, however it would have left 4 holes on both sides, where they were screwed in. (Yeah this guy went with the biggest freaking screws possible..) So I just removed the brackets and arms, until I get my lazy butt down to the Hardware Store, to get the needful to patch the walls. Definitely going to try your suggestion, as I have a POTC disk around here somewhere and had completely forgotten about trying the Optimizer. As for placement, I'm hard-pressed for space with my fronts. Especially since I added 2 additional speakers to my configuration. I can move them a little farther from the front wall, which I will try, but I'm tapped out on the sides. And I'll also try not pointing them inward toward the center as well.

Syndil

I can see you have very little wiggle room, but for testing purposes I would try to get them at least 2 feet away from the walls even if they can't stay there. If a null is being created by the placement, this will help you determine whether or not you need to put some acoustic treatments in the room.

Anon

I'll definitely try that out.

Anon

On a separate note..

I caved in, took my TSi500's back and jumped on a pair of Monitor 70's, a friend of mine had been pushing me to get. Pretty sure Best Buy hates me now lol. However I feel I made a good decision. That and a $360 price difference, was quite motivational.. :rolleyes: I do have a question, regarding 5.1 vs 7.1 and would like some feedback. Which is more beneficial, weighing the differences between 5.1 and 7.1, taking the current setup I have into account? I'm not 100% knowledgeable on the differences, but I've been told that even though you gain extra channels, you lose power. Is it worth the 2 channel jump? Or more beneficial to stay with 5.1? I haven't had time to connect the M70's I just got and would like to know from opinion, if it was even worth buying the extra speakers, given the receiver I chose to go with. I've been so d@#n indecisive about which way to go with this, I'm running out of stores that don't know me.. :redface:

tonyb

I would stay 5.1 with that receiver. Theirs nothing wrong with your speakers. The way you describe the sound, it could be you have something wired wrong, out of phase. Make sure thats correct before doing anything else. Don't worry so much about changing the speaker levels, thats why the menu is there. You have to tweek the settings, you have to, to get good sound. Receivers today are not plug and play like the old days. If your afraid to do that, then their is nothing anything else will do that can help you.

cstmar01

Ypao is terrible as I used to have a yammy and never again will use. I like pioneer mcacc the best as its very good and easy to use. The m70sare pretty much like the 500s just older. There is nothing wrong with saving a little and you could put that money into something else.

5 vs 7 really depends on the room size and everything. Focus getting the 5 set up to what you lime first before adding anything more. Speaker placement is key and will give you better results than just adding more speakers to the mix without proper set up. I have a 18x20 room and run a 7.1 but a 5 channel works just fine too. Also if you use blue ray with HD formats it does sound better than old DVDs will due to the increase in dynamic range. So also test with different tracks and do so homework and good source material to test systems out. And don't worry about anything anyone says at best buy. Most don't have a clue when it comes to Ht and proper setup.

olddog

If he is running Audyssey he needs to turn the sub down and turn off any filters on it. Then when Audyssey is done go back and manually adjust the sub.

Anon

cstmar01 wrote: »

Ypao is terrible as I used to have a yammy and never again will use. I like pioneer mcacc the best as its very good and easy to use. The m70sare pretty much like the 500s just older. There is nothing wrong with saving a little and you could put that money into something else.

5 vs 7 really depends on the room size and everything. Focus getting the 5 set up to what you lime first before adding anything more. Speaker placement is key and will give you better results than just adding more speakers to the mix without proper set up. I have a 18x20 room and run a 7.1 but a 5 channel works just fine too. Also if you use blue ray with HD formats it does sound better than old DVDs will due to the increase in dynamic range. So also test with different tracks and do so homework and good source material to test systems out. And don't worry about anything anyone says at best buy. Most don't have a clue when it comes to Ht and proper setup.

Yeah I'm not too pleased with Yammy's YPAO at all.. And definitely not happy about their fudged power ratings either.. My lack of knowledge with Receivers when I bought it, bit me in the rear. Now that I know, their overblown rating is enough for me to scrap it and never look back. I went with the RX-V671, which just doesn't sound as if it's powering the rest of my speakers adequately. Especially my M70's. So, it looks like it's Craigslist for the Yammy.. Any recommendations on a good high-output reciever? I'm placing my budget at $1200 and am looking for a few good recommendations. I've been eyeing the Pioneer VSX-53 and SC-55. However I've been hearing some negative reviews on the 5 series..

evhudsons

I have a new Yamaha too. I couldn't get the spl levels up even though I was using external amp power. There is a attenuater setting somewhere that I found only by chance that was limiting overall levels. I increased it up to the max, +6

Now everything works great. It is there only for switching sources ie, ps3, tuner, tv, etc and each source has a different volume setting. You can customize it so that the volume is about the same if you change it. For me I simply turn down the volume before switching sources. Find that setting and turn it up. It's probably there and you don't see it or know what it is. The spl meter is by far your best tweaking tool ever, and you will want to use it often, and point the thing in various consistent ways while tweaking levels in order to get the best HT sound. It helps with music too. I've pointed it up, down, behind the couch, angled etc, and now found the best way for my house and listening position. Just a little bit off and it won't sound right, but when you do you will be amazed.

Don't forget to upgrade your firmware. There is one that just came out for December of 2011. That may help.

evhudsons

Ok, I found it for you!

On page 78 of your manual you will see a "volume trim". That's it! You will have to press each source first. So press the one you use for ps3, options button, then follow the directions to raise the trim to +6, then select your tv source, change the trim, then cd, change the trim, and so on. You have to individually do it for each source.

that will help immediately!
Why this huge issue is buried in fine print is beyond me.

other things to try:

select 'straight decoder' when watching movies

enable 'compressed music enhancer'

turn off drc

select the proper ohm level for your speaker, you can do 6 or 8 ohms.

if you get an error message during calibration check the code, it will tell you what is wrong. Even if it goes through, select results to see if anything is out of phase. Both my rear surrounds were out of phase and when I changed it the sound improved overall for movies.

You can change tone control too to raise treble to help with voices, but I leave mine alone.

extra surround should be set to auto

on your ps3, and this is important, change your audio settings. Select settings, audio (or sound I forget which one), then select either hdmi or optical for what you are using. Each one has it's own settings. Choose manual not automatic. I am using hdmi, so I checked all the checkboxes, all of them. I also ignored the warnings about destroying speakers. Your receiver is fine and I doubt any harm would come to them if the decoder played something. If you are using optical then do the same, check them all, all of them. Then save the settings! You push your right button or x button to save them.

There are other settings, but start with those I listed and then tweak to your level of joy.

evhudsons

On your receiver recommendations, I would advise this:

first try the above just to be happy while you think of a plan of action. Get the best used receiver that is somewhat new, meaning it has hdmi and optical inputs and make SURE it has preouts at least for fronts and subwoofer. If it has preouts for fronts, sub, and surround speakers even better.

then get a good used high current amplifier.

I got a pioneer elite receiver for $180, an amp for $300 and $400, and was really happy. The only reason I did away with that receiver is to make my complex system easier for my wife to use. I have too many components and was unhooking and rehooking each time I changed sources. I have a tv, projector, ps3, cd, tape, directv, two amps, outside speakers (4), phono, and so on all using different configurations. With my $180 receiver I even got a belkin power conditioner p30 that is awesome.

In your budget of $1200 you could get sooo much more for half that amount!

If you got a used newer elite for $300 you could add a great amp between $300 and $400 and will be in music heaven for a long time, and can always add on upgrades on top of what you already have.

Anon

Thanks for the reccomendation! I did catch that December FW upgrade. I'll definitely try the volume trim and a few of the other things you had listed. I've been chomping at the bit, trying to find something I may have overlooked before I start dishing out more dinero for another receiver. And your suggestions just gave me something to consider!

Tour2ma

evhudsons wrote: »

Ok, I found it for you!
On page 78...
Why this huge issue is buried in fine print is beyond me.
other things to try...

Looks like about 100 others based on your posts... :cheesygrin:

Seriously, good going, evh... always warms the cockles of my little, CP heart to see a member go the extra mile... Kudos to you. Good stuff on plotting a path as well.

Anon,
Agree with tb about getting what you have right, the best it can be, before moving on.

If you do not mind irritating the BB folk a little more (and there's no reason you should mind), check out the Mon 60's. I thought they were the most balanced 2-ch speaker in the New-Old Monitor line. And with sub(s) in play for HT (or 2-ch) the 70's offer no real advantage. Just my $0.02... which you can send me if you trade down again...

Irregardless of the model, the Mon line tweeters need a little run time. Regardless of whether you think they break-in or your ears do, they will smooth out in time.

tb,
As above stated, I agree on Anon getting his existing rig right as Step #1. However, I don't see 7.1's side ch's adding all that much load, especially if set to small... Then again it just could be Sunfire induced myopia on my part... :cool:

tonyb

Tour2ma wrote: »

tb,
As above stated, I agree on Anon getting his existing rig right as Step #1. However, I don't see 7.1's side ch's adding all that much load, especially if set to small... Then again it just could be Sunfire induced myopia on my part... :cool:

Lol....yeah maybe Bruce, and the OP does need to do what he can with what he has before branching out. I always tend to look at things down the road, could also be an age induced habit of mine. More so, because I always see the pattern, member buys a receiver to fit x budget, then the upgrade bug hits or a deal falls in his lap on big floorstanders and want to know if their receiver is good enough. God knows we have no shortage of those threads. I guess I'm more of an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure type of guy. Just wish I had that ideolgy with the first wife.

Get my PM the other day ? Or you too busy trying to impress that cute librarian ....if one so exists ?

evhudsons

Thanks for the kind words! I received so much help here I have no problem trying to help others. I've been through the same frustrations and to find a solution without spending money is great!

One thing more to add for the OP, you can "virtually" raise the dialogue up on the center channel using your fronts. It may or may not help. I have SDA so there is no need for me. I haven't tried and I won't try it, but in your case it's worth a shot. It's in your manual too, but you can find it in your speaker settings.

Once you get this somewhat satisfactory, save some cash, and don't let the upgrade bugs bite too hard but do go ahead and get an upgradable receiver with preouts to add some high current amps. You will be the envy of yourself.

Tour2ma

You're welcome, evh... they're well deserved...

tonyb wrote: »

Lol....yeah maybe Bruce, and the OP does need to do what he can with what he has before branching out. I always tend to look at things down the road, could also be an age induced habit of mine. More so, because I always see the pattern, member buys a receiver to fit x budget, then the upgrade bug hits or a deal falls in his lap on big floorstanders and want to know if their receiver is good enough. God knows we have no shortage of those threads. I guess I'm more of an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure type of guy. Just wish I had that ideolgy with the first wife.

Get my PM the other day ?

I'll check for the PM momentarily...

Yup... The old failure to plan is planning to fail thing. That was my modus operandi at the start of my audio life. I didn't so much get better at planning as I just accumulated enough pieces that I can make just about anything work now. :cheesygrin: And I quit looking down the road the day its end started coming into focus...

Not sure how many HT CP folk drove fairly decent AVR's into the ground when the LSi 15's and RTi 12's were released... but it had to be in the hundreds...

Thomasjclark45

Hey Anon,
I would agree that upgrading your reciever would probably create a better sound stage and give you more power, but I would agree with TNHNDYMAN on this one. Getting a better system will not help if you do not know how to use it. The first thing I would do is turn up your center, this should help with the narative. As far as playing it at -17db to hear it.... One thing I noticed when i upgraded from my 12 year old Sony was the shift in db levels. When I was listening to my Sony, I could not get it above about -30db without the fear of blowing something (either my speakers or my ear drums) which was about 1/2 volume but when I hooked up my Onkyo my normal vol is about -28db and pushing to -5 to 0 db when watching a movie. It still does not seem as loud, but it is a lot clearer with less ambient noise. Also I am pretty sure that there is a setting on the PS3 for speach enhancement.
Do you have this hooked up to a cable box or any other source that could tell you if it is a setting on the PS3?
If you do decide to upgrade the receiver, I have heard that the Denon produces a better sound stage than the pioneer, and if your having issues with the Yamaha I would stay away from them.
Good luck

SDA1C

If you do decide on a new receiver (not that I think its necessary at this point) in the similar or just a bit higher price range do not discount Onkyo. They are in my opinion the ruler of the midfi.

evhudsons

Anon, any luck on the recommendations or did you find your own solution?

Anon

Well EV, after plenty of time configuring, re-configuring and re-evaluating, and break-in, overall I'm just not happy with this receiver. Ended up being a letdown for me but I should have done more research before I went with it. But still very thankful for the tips and time invested in responses. I've pretty much decided to move on to a better receiver/amp. I'm stuck at a $600 budget, possibly $800 and thought I'd shop around to at least get an idea of what I'm looking at whether I need to hold on a little longer. Figure I'll split the setup between a decent AVR and external amp. Seen a lot of good choices but I just don't have enough background to make a solid choice. Any suggestions/advice/input? As always, greatly appreciated and valued. Thanks again for all the help.

EndersShadow

Well personally any of the Pioneer SC Elite models will knock your socks off based on what I have read. They have enough power that you dont "need" a dedicated amp for them.

The SC-63 was just on newegg last weekend for under 700.

I would say if you can find a used, open box or new in box SC-63, SC-65, SC-67 or SC-68 for your budget your set.

The newer models command a higher price point, not sure what they have extra over the 6 series models.

For what its worth, I plan to drive my 5 channel LSi setup with a SC-65, SC-67 or similar model.

tonyb

Maybe a run down of the settings he's using would be helpful in getting the lad some better sound. Also the cables he's using, how it's set up in the room, etc.

ken brydson

Costco currently has the Pioneer 1222K for $469. It's a rebadged SC61.

Anon

Well I ended up parting with my Yammy, so my price point is up another $350. So I'm looking at a $950 limit. I see a lot of really good avr's at this range, but I guess overall am I better off investing my money in a higher grade receiver with preouts or going with a lower end receiver with preouts and investing the bulk in a good external amplifier? Some of the avr's I have been looking at:

Pioneer elite sc-63
Pioneer elite sc-1323k
Marantz sr5008

Just a few based on reccomendations.

And for Tony: room dimensions are 20x16

pretzelfisch

you might take a look at
Acoustics 101
http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/177
Acoustics 101 part 2
http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/178