Time to Divorce?

heiney9

John, not getting political or pointed in this thread. What I personally think or don't think about certain issues related to this subject aren't important nor are they pertinent to this discussion nor is this the place to discuss them.

I was simply pointing out that times have changed in relation to the institution of marriage and depending on what generation you were raised in, there are vastly differing views of when it's time to call a relationship over and file for divorce.

No judgment making or calling one or the other good, bad or indifferent.

H9

bobman1235

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Perhaps it's time to start making judgements and holding people to account for the choices they make in both their personal and professional lives. There needs to be standards and when those are not lived up to, consequences must apply.

Why is it any of your business what people do in their personal lives, unless it somehow affects you? How does a high divorce rate affect you in the least? If anything, assuming you're married, it should make you feel better about your life.

if it's just because you're a Jesus freak or something and don't believe in divorce, maybe you missed the part about not judging in the bible.

Everyone pays for their decisions somehow. Divorces cost the people involved, both emotionally and financially. They pay for their mistakes without your help.

zombie boy 2000

I believe the divorce rate has been steadily decreasing over the last twenty years. In 2005, it was at its lowest rate since 1970.

But I'm divorced, so what the hell do I know?

headrott

Bob, the family structure has a very significant impact on our entire society as a whole. So, the more people that get divorced and break up families the less stabile our society becomes as a whole. Therefore, what other people do regarding staying married and getting divorced definately affects the average person. The amount it affects each person may vary widely however, of course.

Greg

tonyb

bobman1235 wrote: »

Culture is always going to change and evolve, whether we like it or not.

Very true but you have to keep some core values and incorporate them into a changing culture. What those core values are varies from race to race,family to family.

Regardless, marriage is an institution taken too lightly these days. If the OP has doubts, he needs to have a sit down with his wife and talk openly and honestly. Not much more can be said about it imho.

bobman1235

headrott wrote: »

Bob, the family structure has a very significant impact on our entire society as a whole. So, the more people that get divorced and break up families the less stabile our society becomes as a whole. Therefore, what other people do regarding staying married and getting divorced definately affects the average person. The amount it affects each person may vary widely however, of course.

In families with kids you could certainly make that argument. People who don't have kids, who marry and divorce? That has no affect on the "stability" of society, any more than two people who lived together without getting married and then broke up does.

Kids.... you can make the argument, sure, though kids who grow up in a family where the parents stick it out and hate each other aren't exactly emotionally healthy either.

JPSmario

did your vintage speakers piss her off?

heiney9

zombie boy 2000 wrote: »

I believe the divorce rate has been steadily decreasing over the last twenty years. In 2005, it was at its lowest rate since 1970.

But I'm divorced, so what the hell do I know?

Yes, but part of that statistic I have to believe is because fewer people are getting married. I know so many single family mom's and in many cases they had an option of pursuing marriage and they chose not to.

Certainly my few experiences can't be extrapolated that far, but I believe as a whole marriage isn't as important in society today, you are looked down on less if you are single, unmarried and when people get married it's far too easy and acceptable to go and file for divorce without even attempting to reconcile. Single family houseolds are much more accepted today.

These are some of the reasons why I have stated my opinion as such.

H9

rooftop59

I have looks of strong opinions here, but an audio forum is probably not the place to share them. The OP would probably be better speaking to a counselor, priest, close confidant, family member, first homeless dude he meets on the street, the voices in his head, etc., before consulting this forum (probably should talk to the spouse at some point however...). No disrespect meant to anyone here, just not the place.

And has anyone noticed that the OP has not said anything further? Did he post and run? We may be debating amongst ourselves...

bobman1235

Haha, like msot threads of this ilk it quickly veered away from the original intent.

TECHNOKID

rooftop59 wrote: »

I have looks of strong opinions here, but an audio forum is probably not the place to share them. The OP would probably be better speaking to a counselor, priest, close confidant, family member, first homeless dude he meets on the street, the voices in his head, etc., before consulting this forum (probably should talk to the spouse at some point however...). No disrespect meant to anyone here, just not the place.

And has anyone noticed that the OP has not said anything further? Did he post and run? We may be debating amongst ourselves...

What he said...

cfrizz

heiney9 wrote: »

Single mothers, affairs, and divorce are much more accepted as the norm than they used to be.

Again, not making any judgments about lifestyle or choices, etc. When things become more accpetable and more a part of the norm, people tend to gravitate to the easiest way out.

Just something I've observed as I've gotten older at the rip old age of 45.

H9

I don't know that it is accepted H9, but times and circumstances have changed.

I think marriage is the same that it always has been, What has changed is the ability of people to walk away.

There used to be plenty of women who used to stay in bad marriages simply because they just didn't have the resources to leave.

Most women now make their own livings and do not HAVE to depend on a man for an income, so if it hits the fan, they do have the ability to walk away and still survive.

It's not that the situation is acceptable, it simply is what it is. You certainly can't make rules to force people to stay in marriages especially if they are bad. (There are enough news reports of people killing their entire families just to end things.)

And I think it's unacceptable to do what a lot of Catholics in Italy do, They simply permanently separate but stay married and carry on doing whatever so that they don't run afoul of the Catholic church.:rolleyes:

I don't know what the big picture solution is, I just know that for me, I have no faith in the institution of marriage and would probably choose not to get married if I were ever asked.

headrott

cfrizz wrote: »

I don't know what the big picture solution is, I just know that for me, I have no faith in the institution of marriage and would probably choose not to get married if I were ever asked.

That says it all right there. Is that view on marriage considered healthy or unhealthy? Then, is that view and its outcomes upon society as a whole considered healthy or unhealthy. I have my opinions upon each. Do my opinions matter here? Probably not. But, the correct way of doing things regarding marriage and its affects upon society matter to people as a whole. You can see the outcomes on society when you look around. That is NOT opionion, but fact. As stated in another thread......"The times they are a changin'". Are we prepared for the outcome?

Greg

nooshinjohn

bobman1235 wrote: »

Why is it any of your business what people do in their personal lives, unless it somehow affects you? How does a high divorce rate affect you in the least? If anything, assuming you're married, it should make you feel better about your life.

if it's just because you're a Jesus freak or something and don't believe in divorce, maybe you missed the part about not judging in the bible.

Everyone pays for their decisions somehow. Divorces cost the people involved, both emotionally and financially. They pay for their mistakes without your help.

Not a Jesus freak, nor do I read the Bible... As a person that comes from a divorced home, I can absolutely speak to the horrific damage it can do to a child. My life that should have been(with a father, sisters etc.) has been utterly destroyed. I will not go into details about it, but it involves a stepmother's hatred for my mother and I would not cave to the pressure to disown my mother as my sisters have.

Married and no children??? Get married and divorced a hundred times, I don't care. Have children, and your life should no longer be about you and your selfish desires and needs. It should be about giving your son... your daughter the very best of everything they need to become a fully developed and responsible adult. When either parent walks away from that responsibilty, the family is destroyed, the child is damaged psycologically in some way that may prevent proper social developement, and society as a whole pays the price. I would say that looking at the world today, and the way your youth have been prepared to take responsibility, that price has been far to high.

If that is being judgemental, so be it, but from where I sit, the era of "what's in it for me" is over. The mess we have to fix in this world starts at home and taking responsibility for our descisions rather than running away from them.

heiney9

Cathy, what I meant by accepted is no more Scarlet Letter syndrome. There was a time when I was younger people were aghast if someone was having an affair or they had a child out of wedlock, etc. Today it's become routine in the sense that there is less scrutiny in these situations and more acceptance. Again, I'm not going to comment on it morally as it relates to what I believe. I just notice it's more acceptable than it used to be.

Hell, my cousin has 3 kids with 3 different guys and was only married once. 30 years ago people might have thought lesser of her in the same situation. Today people barely blink an eye. That was my point.

H9

tonyb

cfrizz wrote: »

I just know that for me, I have no faith in the institution of marriage and would probably choose not to get married if I were ever asked.

To each his own Cathy, and believe me,I'm not judging anyone here, but sounds like you have no faith in yourself or anyone else to make that commitment. No offense, I just think the institution of marriage is fine in and of itself. It's the people who choose to partake in it or not that seems alittle shakey these days.....AND NO, I'm not calling you shakey, I've seen that baseball bat behind the front door.:biggrin: Must be a London special.

nooshinjohn

cfrizz wrote: »

I don't know what the big picture solution is, I just know that for me, I have no faith in the institution of marriage and would probably choose not to get married if I were ever asked.

I agree with you Cathy. Men must become men of honor again. We need to find within ourselves the integrity to live up to our commitments, and stop trying to find ways to justify bad personal behavior.

Women need to stop allowing men of poor moral character into their lives, and to do this, they too must fix themselves and see the value of who they are. Too many women let themselves be defined by their man because they cannot be complete without feeling loved. A woman cannot fix a broken man. A man must have the strength of character to fix himself. The broken home has only made things worse for kids trying to come to grips with who they are when they have to do it by themselves. There are certain things a mother can teach a girl that a father never could, and the same for a mother trying to teach her son.


We need to fix ourselves before we can fix anything else.

heiney9

My other point is, you need to know where you stand as far as the institution of Marriage and make darn sure your mate is aligned in the same way of thinking. I think part of the problem is two people end up having different expectations and when those expectations never materialize that's when the issues start to pile up.

H9

villock

nooshinjohn very well put. I have been married for 19 yrs. and it stopped being about me when my first born arrived 18 years ago(I have four children). Our first job is to raise responsible and respectful children who grow into the same as adults. Both me and my wife's parents are still married, hers are 85 years old, my parents are 68 years old. This was an important factor when I asked my wife to marry me. Her family was very stable and her parents treated each other with respect. Same with mine. My marriage is far from perfect but we both started with strong foundations and I think it has helped us in raising our family and still being married.

cfrizz

heiney9 wrote: »

Cathy, what I meant by accepted is no more Scarlet Letter syndrome. There was a time when I was younger people were aghast if someone was having an affair or they had a child out of wedlock, etc. Today it's become routine in the sense that there is less scrutiny in these situations and more acceptance. Again, I'm not going to comment on it morally as it relates to what I believe. I just notice it's more acceptable than it used to be.

Hell, my cousin has 3 kids with 3 different guys and was only married once. 30 years ago people might have thought lesser of her in the same situation. Today people barely blink an eye. That was my point.

H9

I know what you are saying, but even back then with all the aghast people pointing at someone in shame, it didn't stop the behavior of those who chose not to honor their commitments. It continued to happen so it simply became the way it is.

tonyb wrote: »

To each his own Cathy, and believe me,I'm not judging anyone here, but sounds like you have no faith in yourself or anyone else to make that commitment. No offense, I just think the institution of marriage is fine in and of itself. It's the people who choose to partake in it or not that seems alittle shakey these days.....AND NO, I'm not calling you shakey, I've seen that baseball bat behind the front door.:biggrin: Must be a London special.

Tony, I have PLENTY of faith in myself, I simply don't have any faith in most men today.

I was fortunate enough to grow up with both a mother and a father. My dad believed in taking care of his family and my parents were together for 30+ years til my dads death in 81. My mom never remarried and joined him in 2003.

I used to believe in marriages like that, but as I watched my girlfriends go through infidelity, divorces, abandonment, chasing losers all over the place for child support etc, my belief died.

A good friend of mine was in and out of court for years, once because the ex asked the judge to lower his child support because he remarried and had another kid!:mad: The 2nd ex was in the army, got sent to Panama, and decided not to come back.:rolleyes:

I am totally happy for those of you who have remained committed to your spouses, I'll also bet that you are all over the age of 50!

While we try our best to know the person that we marry, sometimes you get broadsided by behavior you would never expect, then you have to decide if you put up with it or bail out. Depending on the severity of the problem, and whether or not each person is willing to try to work it out whether the marriage survives or not.

DarqueKnight

cfrizz wrote: »

The 2nd ex was in the army, got sent to Panama, and decided not to come back.

Yeah, I can understand not wanting to leave Panama. I can see myself moving there after I retire.

gdb

"Why are you asking this group of audio asshats ?" (quote by one of our TX members, I think) I wish you both luck, regardless!

bobman1235

nooshinjohn wrote: »

As a person that comes from a divorced home, I can absolutely speak to the horrific damage it can do to a child. My life that should have been(with a father, sisters etc.) has been utterly destroyed. I will not go into details about it, but it involves a stepmother's hatred for my mother and I would not cave to the pressure to disown my mother as my sisters have.

I'm sorry you had that experience. Maybe I'm accepting of these things because, while my parents are also divorced, the general effect was positive. Before the divorce they fought a lot and were at best cold and accepting to each other. They tried to hide those htings for our sake but obviously there's only so much you can hide. For YEARS they stayed together "for the kids."

Fast forward a few years, and they got divorced, both remarried, and my parents get along FAMOUSLY, as do all the step parents. It couldn't be a healthier relationship, and is certainly better than what would have been had they stayed together.

If two people hate each other so much tat they can't maintain a civil relationship after a divorce for the sake of their kids, how could they possibly cohabitate and provide a good home for those kids together?

gdb

http://xfinity.comcast.net/finance/forwhatitsworth/8012004/bestworsttimesfinanciallytosplitup/?cid=hero_media

nooshinjohn

bobman1235 wrote: »

If two people hate each other so much tat they can't maintain a civil relationship after a divorce for the sake of their kids, how could they possibly cohabitate and provide a good home for those kids together?

...it's called respect for one another, and without it, any relationship is doomed. Love is all great and stuff, but everything including love, grows from respect.

My parents hand no self-respect, and none for each other. That gave way to cheating on both parts. Crap in always equals crap out, and their marriage was doomed before the "I Do's" were even said.


I used to be like Cathy regarding marriage, but have since come to recognize the beauty in it once the proper foundations are laid. It all starts with and can be built upon respect, then love, and almost never the other way around.

newrival

headrott wrote: »

the correct way of doing things regarding marriage and its affects upon society matter to people as a whole. You can see the outcomes on society when you look around. That is NOT opionion, but fact.

Greg

No, I'm sorry, it's not fact, It is anecdotal. The times may be 'achangin hyuk hyuk, but that doesn't connote the quality of change. Some may say that it is a change for the better. There are some that look to the past with rose colored glasses and reminisce of days of milk and honey that never existed.

You looking around at all of societies domestic woes and blaming it on the whipper snappers and their hippie views of marriage [not a quote] is a prime example of the fallacy of the simple cause. It's a far more complex issue; That is, Unless you and a couple others here have it all figured out already.

I would bet you could do all kinds of statistics that show a correlation between divorce and societal problems. However, correlation does not prove causality. Moreover, correlation doesn't even prove there is a relation greater than circumstantial chance, and even less so, establish the directional flow of cause/effect.

nooshinjohn

I blame it all on the devil's music. Ever since Rock and Roll came to be and all that dirty dancing... well that's when it all went to hell I tell ya!

TECHNOKID

If two people hate each other so much tat they can't maintain a civil relationship after a divorce for the sake of their kids, how could they possibly cohabitate and provide a good home for those kids together?

The real question should actually be: "Why would they get married in the first place?" Marriage despite the generational changes is a serious commitment. IMHO, abstinence (to getting maried and having children of course) is the only avenue if mariage is just a formality license for legal sex.

IMHO, a man seeking to divorce his wife should not make the women suffer that much (just theory as hurt feeling is an emotional state) as the women should know he never deserved her anyway. The opposite version also applies (however, I realize there are special circomstances such as abuse of any ways shape or forms that will justifies divorce as again, the men/women would have not deserved the love anyway).

Nooshinjohn's posts are surely tough and potentially judgemental however, I find my self to agree with most of what he said. I also talk from experience and in my specific situation is seeing both of my sons growing without the mom at home. may have been tough on me but I can assure you it was way much tougher on them.

They are mature now, live decent life and can take decisions on their own but I can assure you their dad is always worried about the effect of the family split has on them even today.

Very tricky subject, walking on egg shells with such subject. I did not really to get into it but I guess I couldn't resist.

TECHNOKID

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I blame it all on the devil's music. Ever since Rock and Roll came to be and all that dirty dancing... well that's when it all went to hell I tell ya!

Not sure if it was intended as a joke but ROTFLMAO! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

tonyb

Want to hear Ben Franklins advice for young married couples ? Some things remain true no matter the test of times.

http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/bookmarks/franklin/frnktext.html