What polypropylene Caps Are Good and Cheap?

2

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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,197
    edited July 2011
    So you are using active x-overs? Why rebuild the passive x-over then? If you don't use active x-overs technically in my book it's not bi-amping.

    Tried with RD0's.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Joe08867
    Joe08867 Posts: 3,919
    edited July 2011
    Now that I know your talking to me. I tried bypass caps on my original SDA2s with SL2000 tweeters. I had upgraded the crossover and was burning it in with the old tweeters. After about 200hrs I really took a listen to the speakers, using albums I know extremely well.

    The SL2000 has always been harsh sounding to me but now it wasn't just harsh but it had this other sound and was in the background of the soundstage. Kind of like an echo in the real upper khz or sizzle. The word escapes me.

    I switched out the SL2000's for the RDO-194 and the Harshness went away but the artifact was still there. I did some searching on this site and with the help of F1 and Ben I found out that the bypass caps were not needed and they suggested taking them out. So I did.

    Bang, the whole world changed soundwise. The tweeters mellowed right out, the sizzle and brittle sound went away and the sound came forward to were the mids were instead of kind of choked as they were.

    Honestly, the need for the bypass caps back when these were built was all about the caps being used. With the performance of caps nowadays these bypass caps are not needed what so ever.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,197
    edited July 2011
    saemark30 wrote: »
    considering biamping as you can see in my other thread.

    What about just using two amplifiers and forgetting about the electronic crossover? Simply using two amplifiers is not true bi-amping and does not offer the same advantages; we still face the limitations of the passive crossover. What about the notion that bi-amping reduces stress on the amplifiers since they are powering only limited frequency ranges? That would be true in a true bi-amp configuration where the frequencies are split ahead of the amplifiers, but in a passive environment both amplifiers receive a full range signal from the preamp and dump that power into the speakers, regardless of whether one is connected to the tweeter or woofer inputs. The only benefit (and it marginal at best) is simply the additional power offered by the second amp.*

    Lastly (and maybe most importantly), the idea of using different types of amplifiers is a real issue. It has long been thought that the ideal situation was to use a sweet, refined low powered amp in top (tubes, for instance), teamed up with a powerful (usually solid state) amp to control the bass. This may indeed produce nice extreme top and bottom, but rarely did the two disparate sonic characteristics of the two dissimilar amplifiers mesh well in the critical midrange area. Further, matching signal level between both amplifiers extremely difficult, maybe impossible without sophisticated measurement equipment. So, more often than not, pseudo bi-amping, or poorly executed true bi-amping causes more problems than it cures.

    In most cases, I am not a fan of bi-amping a high end audio or video systems. As we have seen, it can be a fairly complex (not to mention expensive) modification. Proper implementation requires the use of multiple amplifiers and an outboard electronic crossover. This mandates bypassing the internal passive crossover, which requires work inside the speaker, and will clearly void your warranty. There is significant expense in hardware: the additional amplifiers and crossover, not to mention the extra cables required. Further, we dramatically add to the complexity of the system. Though it can offer substantial benefits in the right set-up, in most every instance the listener is better served by using the funds to upgrade components in the system.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,197
    edited July 2011
    saemark30, I am curious why you feel the need to bi-amp Polk Monitor speakers? I did post an opinion that aligns with mine, but I wonder what advantage you are trying to accomplish and how you plan to implement such a scheme? How are you going to split the passive x-over in the Monitor 7's so you can even try the quasi-biamping? That in itself would be quite an undertaking.

    If you plan to go active I'd sure like to hear your plan.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • saemark30
    saemark30 Posts: 146
    edited July 2011
    H9 today I woke up with two plans, either biamp or get those poly capacitors.
    Why biamp? It is the best way to keep the frequencies separated, improve spatial imaging etc.
    To biamp the M7 properly, I would need to use 4 banana connectors wired directly to the drivers.
    I don't want to ruin a working pair of M7, so I have EPI 100 to test that concept.
    I still want to try the poly capacitors.
    If Parts Connexion had the cheaper ClarityCaps I would have ordered them today.
    After reading the other thread, that may be the best option.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,197
    edited July 2011
    What type of electronic x-over are you using? I will assume nothing, but I hope you weren't just going to wire a full signal directly to the drivers?

    I understand living in Canada and buying stuff from the US, it's expensive and a PITA. I use Madisound, Parts Express and Parts Connexion. It's too bad PC doesn't carry the full line of Clarity Caps like Madisound does. I really like the PX and SA series for an inexpensive poly cap for speaker x-overs.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • saemark30
    saemark30 Posts: 146
    edited July 2011
    The simplest x-over is to insert passive 1st order RC just before a amp's input.
    I could use 1 for high pass and another for low passing to each respective amp.
    The EPI has a crossover frequency of 2000Hz.
    One advantage is the filter response is not affected by the varying impedance of the drivers.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,197
    edited July 2011
    Passive bi-amping never works and all the benefits you mention you are trying to get, I doubt you'll come close. IMO, not worth the effort, but it sounds rudimentary enough that you could certainly experiment without a lot of cost or build time.

    I know you'll get more satisfaction out of new caps and resistors and being done with it after that.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • saemark30
    saemark30 Posts: 146
    edited July 2011
    I know I have til the end of the month to get the 20% off from Parts Connexion.
    I'll need to buy the RDO-194 and caps.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2011
    Bypassing ruins spacial info.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited July 2011
    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61727
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,571
    edited July 2011
    ben62670 wrote: »
    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61727

    well hello stranger hope all is well
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  • saemark30
    saemark30 Posts: 146
    edited July 2011
    Which ones would you use for upgrading paper caps in a Dynaco tube amplifier?
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  • saemark30
    saemark30 Posts: 146
    edited July 2011
    What about the Auricap 200V series?
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2011
    saemark30 wrote: »
    Which ones would you use for upgrading paper caps in a Dynaco tube amplifier?

    jensen PIO
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • saemark30
    saemark30 Posts: 146
    edited August 2011
    I don't know why Polk used Mylar caps in the Monitor 7 series, just makes the Sl2000 sound even more harsh.
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  • saemark30
    saemark30 Posts: 146
    edited August 2011
    Looking at the specs for Wima caps, the 100V rated caps have faster risetimes than the 250V ones.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,197
    edited August 2011
    saemark30 wrote: »
    Looking at the specs for Wima caps, the 100V rated caps have faster risetimes than the 250V ones.

    It's insignificant.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • saemark30
    saemark30 Posts: 146
    edited November 2012
    Another Parts Connexxion 20% off sale.
    How would the following rate for sound quality from best to worst:
    Clarity Caps
    MR 630Vdc
    ESA 250Vdc
    ESA 630Vdc
    SA 630Vdc
    TC 700Vdc
    would be using about 12uF in crossovers.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited November 2012
    MR is clearly the best. ESA would come in second, but I haven't compared the 250v vs 630v. The TC caps aren't designed for speaker crossovers.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • nspindel
    nspindel Posts: 5,343
    edited November 2012
    Joe08867 wrote: »
    I hate bypass caps. Add to much garbage to the sound. Tried them on my Polk's before I knew better. They came right out.

    +1. Forget bypass caps. Just use good caps.
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.
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  • saemark30
    saemark30 Posts: 146
    edited November 2012
    The ESA 250 Vdc cost about $18. Anything else in that range to consider
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited November 2012
    Nope.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • gp4jesus
    gp4jesus Posts: 1,988
    edited November 2012
    DC blocking cap for a tweeter? EXO'd @ 1Khz

    thnx, Tony
    Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED, Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro Samsung BDP, Amazon Firestick, Phillips CD Changer Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside*; Ctr Ch outside BJC 10 ga: LCR mids “Foamed & Plugged**”, inside* & out
    8 ga Powerline: LR woofers, inside* & out
    *soldered **Rob the Man (Xschop) LR: Tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; Tweets & Mids - 981, connected w/Monoprice Premiere ICs
    Ctr Ch: Rotel RB981 -> Bi-amped CSi A6 Surrounds: Premiere ICs ->Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3. 5 Subs: Sunfire True SW Signature -> LFE & Ctr Ch; 4 Audio Pro Evidence @ the “Corners”. Power Conditioning & Distribution: 4 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 5 Furman Miniport 20s
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited November 2012
    What's the tweeter's impedance?
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited November 2012
    saemark30 wrote: »
    I don't know why Polk used Mylar caps in the Monitor 7 series, just makes the Sl2000 sound even more harsh.

    It was probably the best choice considering economics and parts availability. High grade caps were very expensive and in very short supply during the 1980's.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited November 2012
    gp4jesus wrote: »
    DC blocking cap for a tweeter? EXO'd @ 1Khz

    thnx, Tony
    I use 43 uf Solens for that very purpose and don't feel they are a compromise.
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  • gp4jesus
    gp4jesus Posts: 1,988
    edited November 2012
    Face wrote: »
    What's the tweeter's impedance?
    8 ohms. You'll hafta excuse my ignorance.

    I thought the cap's value didn't matter as long as it behaved as a 1st order an octave or two below the EXO's frequency.

    thanks for your help. Tony
    Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED, Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro Samsung BDP, Amazon Firestick, Phillips CD Changer Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside*; Ctr Ch outside BJC 10 ga: LCR mids “Foamed & Plugged**”, inside* & out
    8 ga Powerline: LR woofers, inside* & out
    *soldered **Rob the Man (Xschop) LR: Tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; Tweets & Mids - 981, connected w/Monoprice Premiere ICs
    Ctr Ch: Rotel RB981 -> Bi-amped CSi A6 Surrounds: Premiere ICs ->Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3. 5 Subs: Sunfire True SW Signature -> LFE & Ctr Ch; 4 Audio Pro Evidence @ the “Corners”. Power Conditioning & Distribution: 4 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 5 Furman Miniport 20s
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  • saemark30
    saemark30 Posts: 146
    edited December 2012
    Anyone try the Audiophiler caps from Amazon or China?
    I see some yellow 10uF 250V ones, and orange 10uF 400V - would these be as good as Bennic or Solen?
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited December 2012
    I've heard poor reviews of them, but never used them myself. The are Chinese knock-offs as you probably guessed (quality and values not guaranteed), but just be aware of what they are selling for, and if you can get something else comparable for the price.
    Jake
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