Let's Play "The Weakest Link"

cdn5003

No I don't mean the BBC show with the witchy woman, which actually was a cool social experiment about discrimination (age, gender, race) and game theory (when three players remained the strongest player always seemed to get voted off because the last player remaining won the money).

I mean 2 CH. setups. I am going to put mine together in the next week or so and will be looking for advice to improve my sound. The weakest link in the audio system seems to reduce the sound quality of every other component so posting everything from source, interconnect, receiver/preamp, interconnect, amplifier, speaker wire, speaker and subwoofer. List anything in the audio chain and hopefully some of the more experienced members here can help you/me get better sound, often times it doesn't have to break the bank (changing speaker position in the room can make a big difference in sound quality).

I mean this to be geared more toward beginner/intermediate and don't want to start arguments about cables etc. Just want to help people identify the limiting factor that might help them out.

heiney9

My weakest link at the moment is lack of room treatments. I just moved into a hew house and over the Summer I'll be getting things dialed in via room treatments.

H9

steveinaz

I suspect that if I upped my game on my source (CEC/Benchmark), to the level that the DAC could depart my system, benefits could be reaped; but such a source would likely be in the $3500 and up price bracket---more than I'm willing to pay. I also think I could benefit from a better amp--but again I'd need to be in the $2500 and up bracket; and even then, gains will be subtle.

At this point, I'm just enjoying the hell out of my system, and have no real motivation to change anything.

fbm211

Im considering a new preamp.Got it down between a Dared Mc-7p Tube preamp w phono or the Sl-2000a Pure Tube preamp, us limited ed, 2011 model.Thats if I decide to try tubes.
However Im also interested in the WFS preamp too.

This would replace my monarchy M-10 pre.

treitz3

With every rig I have heard, the room has always been the weakest link. It plays a larger role than one may think.

TNRabbit

treitz3 wrote: »

With every rig I have heard, the room has always been the weakest link. It plays a larger role than one may think.

Ditto x100~

tonyb

It doesn't matter, no matter how good your gear is, there will always be a piece you perceive to be the weekest link.
Trick is, getting the most out of what you have to work with.

treitz3

.....and no matter what it is you have, there is always something "better". To whom? Eh, to someone else.

renowilliams

I have to agree about room treatments being the weakest link in any rig. Funny though,my brother and sister-in-law were over the other day and wanted to listen to my setup and my brother commented that he thought my room acoustics were great. I told him it was the sda effect.

mantis

treitz3 wrote: »

With every rig I have heard, the room has always been the weakest link. It plays a larger role than one may think.

It's always the weakest link. I have been setting up 2 ch systems for over a decade and every single time it's the room. People want nice higher end system but decide to put them in the worst rooms possible.
So my strongest advice is to have a good room. If you have a poor room , don't waste your money on higher end gear , cables , etc as you will not benefit from it.
Next is proper placement. Manufactures have optimal positions in most of their manuals. Follow these instructions to the letter and find your system sound better you will.
As far as the actual system goes , balance is always key.
1) Start off with a pair of speakers you fall in love with.
2) Now find an amp that matches them well, has enough power to drive to correctly and full
3) Get a matching preamp. I have found matching works best.
4) Your sources should be of the same caliber as the amp and pre. Most of the time you can get a matching CD player like Cambridge, Bryston , Krell , Mark Levinson , etc does.
5) Cables. This is always a tuff question and usually an argument but there is no question having proper cables for the given system is just as important as anything else. If you decide to cheap out here , you may be hindering your system to perform to it's fullest potential.
6) Power , a good surge line conditioner is a great way to protect your system while suppling it with good quality power. Make sure the conditioner you select and supply your amp with full power. 15 or 20 amp protectors will work best like Panamax , APC and Richard Grey. Read reviews and learn as much as you can as some of them are not that good like Monster cables models. I have seen so many of them fail.
7) The layout of your gear in a rack. Magnetic fields are generated by some gear and power cables. I have not heard to much difference here but some Audiophiles I have met over the years swear by this. Using Granite , ISO products to keep everything motion free. Enter at your own risk but learn everything you can about this topic. It's interesting to say the least.

So there is a pretty good list of things to follow when building a 2 channel system. Music is a passion and good money is spent to listen to it. Spend wisely and you will benefit. Keep an open mind and ear. Find as many HI FI shops to visit as you can and really learn from the pro's. Take everything with a grain of salt and see how many times the same opinion or stated fact is true. There is many bad products out there that don't perform as well as they should. Then you find some Gems.

gimpod

Unfortunately for me my two weakest links are mounted on the sides of my head. No Joke :frown:

pearsall001

The most important componet is your listening room. It will ALWAYS make or break the performance & the musical impact of your system.

victor. askew

My room has to be the weakest link.

Tony M

treitz3 wrote: »

With every rig I have heard, the room has always been the weakest link. It plays a larger role than one may think.

Mine too. I have way too much in my listening environment right now. Now having too many speakers in said space, does help to dampen the reflections ALOT.

I'm still working on this weak link when I'm not working on my long mental priority list.:frown:

HB27

Source material. I'm always looking for more quality source be it vinyl, cd, tape, whatever the format.
Some of my favorite music is on lousy source and I'm always trying to find better recordings.

audiocr381ve

Horrible listening room here as well. :frown:

My parents have a nice big house with high ceilings and great acoustics. I've always thought of loading up all of my gear just to hear it in a nice room for once.

cdn5003

Current 2CH setup:

Source-Computer(WMA Lossless/FLAC)
DAC- Pop Pulse 1796
IC- Blue Jeans LC-1
Preamp- Adcom GTP-450
IC- Monoprice Stereo IC's
Amp- Carver 1.5T
Speaker Cable- Belden Pure AV with Bananas
Speakers- Lsi9's
Subwoofer- Velodyne DLS3750R (used sometimes)

I am very happy with this setup right now. I have tried it in two different rooms, the point that the weakest link is always the room was true in my case, I got better sound in a small bedroom than a living room where they normally reside(used for Fronts in HT also). After playing around with positioning a little I was able to improve the 2 channel sound in the living room. Maybe someday I can setup a dedicated 2 channel system.

To improve this system for now I will get another pair of Blue Jeans IC's for the connection from preamp to power amp. The construction of the Blue Jeans cables is very good and I don't want to get too involved with high end IC's.

The question is, what is the next move to make that would take me to a higher level? I feel like I have established a solid system at this point so any move I make would have to be drastic to really sound better.

Any advice is appreciated, I will continue to play around with speaker positioning and room treatments.

falconcry72

cdn5003 wrote: »

...so any move I make would have to be drastic to really sound better.

I'm not sure I really understand this. Trust me, a lot of small changes can add up.

How is your computer connected to your DAC? USB? What media player are you using? Are you running whatever media player you're using in ASIO, WASAPI, or another bit-perfect playback mode? Where are your FLAC's coming from? Do you rip them yourself? Do you use EAC in accurate mode, or another bit perfect ripping software?

I'd say that if you like the sound of your speakers, then the speakers and your amp are your strongest links. This leaves your source, DAC, and preamp.

Source: If you're set on using your computer as a source, then make sure you're getting the files out as well as possible with some of the above-noted techniques.

DAC: There are better DAC's out there, as well as better USB devices. One option is to use a separate USB to SPDIF converter so that you can use any number of non-USB capable DAC's.

Preamp: Adcom was never really known for their preamps, with the exception if the GFP-750. Lots of choices out there. Are you interested in tubes?


Bottom line: there is always something you can upgrade... always. If you love the way it sounds, then great! If there is a specific sonic deficiency that you want to improve, then seek it out, but be as specific as possible.

cdn5003

I guess what I mean by a drastic change is component change. Anything else being more of just an adjustment. A significant improvement out of a Pre or DAC might be my best option if it can be done without spending excessively.

I ripped all of my CD's into Windows Media Lossless format and play them from windows media player or winamp. I might be able to make an adjustment here that could help out.

As far as a DAC, I wish I could demo some other units. My Pop Pulse is clearly better than any other DAC I have used. Anyone want to let me borrow their Cambridge DAC Magic?

My Preamp seems to be where I should look next. That Adcom GFP-750 looks really nice and has HT Bypass which would be a nice feature. Also the Parasound 2100 is in that ballpark of SS preamps. HT bypass isn't a dealbreaker though.

The question you asked "Are you interested in Tubes?"

I think the answer has to be yes considering I haven't heard a Tube system before, another wish I could demo scenario. How about the Dared SL2000A? The guys in the Holy Grail thread seem to be having a lot of fun with that unit. It would certainly shake up my system, maybe for the better. Any thoughts?

stuwee

I'm soooo bummed, my room is my strongest link and now I have to move :frown:. I'm sure my new place will be horrible and I'll have to start all this crap all over again, GRRRRRRRRR!!

Toolfan66

Properly placed room treatments can make a bad room sound better..

headrott

I could use some help with placing some 2ft.X2ft.X6" bass traps in the back of my listening room. one corner I might be able to put it up (pretty tight fit though). The other corner on the other hand causes the bass trap to hang too low and/or is too tight of a fit because of doors, etc. I will take a picture and show you all what I am talking about (Probably tomorrow though as it's too late tonight ). I could use some advice on how to put it up. I cannot think of a way of doing it without the bass trap being in the way of my head and /or doors, etc. Pictures comming soon .

Greg

falconcry72

cdn5003 wrote: »

I ripped all of my CD's into Windows Media Lossless format...

Look into EAC. It's the only way to ensure accurate ripping, even if you used a lossless format before.

...and play them from windows media player or winamp.

No. Bad. Look into the "bitperfect" or "bitransparent" playback modes I mentioned in my original post:

- ASIO

- WASAPI

- Kernal Streaming

Get your source playback done right before you start looking into new components.

My Pop Pulse is clearly better than any other DAC I have used.

You can do better.

Anyone want to let me borrow their Cambridge DAC Magic?

You can still do better.

My Preamp seems to be where I should look next. That Adcom GFP-750 looks really nice and has HT Bypass which would be a nice feature. Also the Parasound 2100 is in that ballpark of SS preamps. HT bypass isn't a dealbreaker though.

The GFA-750 is a special unit from Adcom. Adcom is not known for their preamps, with the exception of that unit. Parasound is not known for their preamps either, and in that range you could do better.

What's your estimated preamp budget? We need to know to make recommendations.

The question you asked "Are you interested in Tubes?"

I think the answer has to be yes considering I haven't heard a Tube system before, another wish I could demo scenario. How about the Dared SL2000A? The guys in the Holy Grail thread seem to be having a lot of fun with that unit. It would certainly shake up my system, maybe for the better. Any thoughts?

Try some tubes. People like that Dared unit. I've never heard it. Again, a budget would be useful.


You keep mentioning that you wish you could demo products:

Look for good deals on the used market. Buy. Listen. If you don't like, sell at no loss, and move one to the next piece.


Good luck in your journey.


Ben

Canonshooter

My system is currently suffering a significant weak link;

stuwee

Canonshooter, use caution when taking pics of reflective surfaces in your underware :twisted:

Wlecome to Club Polk btw

scottyboy76

gimpod wrote: »

Unfortunately for me my two weakest links are mounted on the sides of my head. No Joke :frown:

Im afraid, because of age, medicines i take and injury/abuse over the years, im slowly climbing into same boat.

rebuy

Even though I don't have a 2 channel rig, upgrades are always good.
The weaker link in my modest system is my Onkyo 608. Even though it has plenty of power to drive RTI 4's, it sounds muffled to me. I have owned H-K before and liked the sound much better. The H-K I had sounded more open than this receiver. It has good processing and options for playback but I might sell it if I get the chance to get a H-K or Marantz.

My hearing is the weakest link but I can work with it, I have too.

Paden501

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

Properly placed room treatments can make a bad room sound better..

It looks like most everybody agrees that the room is a make-or-break piece of the system, but does anybody have some information or a link to discussion of how to improve your room acoustics? I mean I for one don't even know where I should start on room treatments and such.

Somebody please educate me.

Thanks,

falconcry72

Paden501 wrote: »

It looks like most everybody agrees that the room is a make-or-break piece of the system, but does anybody have some information or a link to discussion of how to improve your room acoustics? I mean I for one don't even know where I should start on room treatments and such.

Somebody please educate me.

Thanks,

There are several long threads about this. I might dig some up and provide links... or I might just drink my beer and continue listening to some new music. hmm. I think you're on your own this time.

falconcry72

Here's some pics of what I got goin' on...

Brands to research would be GIK, ATS, Realtraps etc...

Mine are ATS 2' x 4' x 4". I have 12 of them, and they made a big difference, but picking the right room will make more of a difference than treating the wrong room will.

headrott

falconcry72 wrote: »

Here's some pics of what I got goin' on...

Brands to research would be GIK, ATS, Realtraps etc...

Mine are ATS 2' x 4' x 4". I have 12 of them, and they made a big difference, but picking the right room will make more of a difference than treating the wrong room will.

Do you have any treatments in the back of the room? I assume not since you said you have 12 of them. The back of the room is where I need help with. Still need to take the photos, but it's kinda dark down there right now (it's in a basement. Plus, I only have an iphone to photograph with (they don't take good photos). I'll still give it a try though. I'll upload them in a minute or so.....

Greg