When was the last time you have used your CD player?
Comments
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Since DSD is a 1bit process I assume you mean converted to 24bit LPCM.no its a PCM capture of the the 24-bit DSD signal. -
Sorry, it's still not SACD.
Obviously not literally. It's a copy of my SACD.
There are other methods currently being developed using a linux ps3design is where science and art break even. -
Since DSD is a 1bit process I assume you mean converted to 24bit LPCM.
You are correct, LPCMdesign is where science and art break even. -
Sorry, it's still not SACD.
Another thing you got wrong.....DSD is not 24 bit, it's 1 bit.
Yes you're correct, The PCM is 24-bit, which nearly any SACD player offers as a playback option of SACD which is derived fro the 1-bit DSD.design is where science and art break even. -
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
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The PCM is 24-bit, which nearly any SACD player offers as a playback option of SACD which is derived fro the 1-bit DSD.
I'm not aware of any SACD player that has that option. I mean, why would it?Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Not if it's 24bit.
Well, you're right. It would be closer to DVD-A. Still not SACD tho.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
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design is where science and art break even.
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Some universal players convert DSD to PCM when the players on board bass management is used.I'm not aware of any SACD player that has that option. I mean, why would it? -
The PCM/DSD debate has been going on since the introduction of SACD and as such, most players include an option of PCM conversion for playback. Fewer players output in PCM but some do.I'm not aware of any SACD player that has that option. I mean, why would it?
Some believe 24-bit PCM is superior, others contend 1-bit DSD is.design is where science and art break even. -
True.Certainly excellent results can be had by both formats if the they are used to their fullest potential.
The PCM/DSD debate has been going on since the introduction of SACD and as such....Some believe 24-bit PCM is superior, others contend 1-bit DSD is. -
True.Certainly excellent results can be had by both formats if the they are used to their fullest potential.
Agreed. I've experimented with listening to both and while I felt I heard some kind of difference, it was tough to put my finger on what it was, or which one I preferred. Now I just leave it on DSD because that is what is default.design is where science and art break even. -
As a side note to the DSD/PCM discussion, I played a SACD via my Sony 9100ES, and the same SACD through the Oppo BD83 output as PCM. Both formats were digital to the Sony DA7100ES (DSD via ilink, and PCM via HDMI). For whatever reason, there was no contest between the two. The Sony DSD beat the Oppo PCM in sound quality hands down. Of course, this was only a 1 SACD test so it really does not mean anything other than a personal experience.
Now that I have upgraded to the Oppo BDP93 I should retry the test.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
As a side note to the DSD/PCM discussion, I played a SACD via my Sony 9100ES, and the same SACD through the Oppo BD83 output as PCM. Both formats were digital to the Sony DA7100ES (DSD via ilink, and PCM via HDMI). For whatever reason, there was no contest between the two. The Sony DSD beat the Oppo PCM in sound quality hands down. Of course, this was only a 1 SACD test so it really does not mean anything other than a personal experience.
Now that I have upgraded to the Oppo BDP93 I should retry the test.
I could be mistaken, but doesn't that Sony convert all incomming signals to 1 bit dsd ? Maybe it's just the added conversion in the sony that relates to the lesser sound quality you experienced running the Oppo thru it. I don't think the differences you are hearing are due to the specific format itself but rather the quality of the conversion in the sony.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I could be mistaken, but doesn't that Sony convert all incomming signals to 1 bit dsd ? Maybe it's just the added conversion in the sony that relates to the lesser sound quality you experienced running the Oppo thru it. I don't think the differences you are hearing are due to the specific format itself but rather the quality of the conversion in the sony.
I really do not know how it works. I assumed it was playing DSD from the SACD.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Some universal players convert DSD to PCM when the players on board bass management is used.
Interesting. I wouldn't own one of those.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Never mind, I didn't read that properly.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I really do not know how it works. I assumed it was playing DSD from the SACD.
The way you had them hooked up meant that the Sony DA7100ES was using its DAC(s). You'd have to use analog connections for the players to use their DAC(s).
It would be interesting to see what the results would be using RCA's.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
BlueFox, The PCM/DSD test you described doesn't offer any proof other than you prefered the Sony DSD performance over the PCM performance of the Oppo. They're two diferent circuitries and doesn't speak to the direct comparison of th PCM vs DSD.
Also, I believe F1 is correct here in saying that by using the HDMI you are likely having your receiver do the decoding. But not knowing your player all that well I can't be certain.design is where science and art break even. -
The way you had them hooked up meant that the Sony DA7100ES was using its DAC(s). You'd have to use analog connections for the players to use their DAC(s).
That is the whole point. The only difference between the same SACD decoded through two sources was one is DSD, and the other is LPCM. The same DAC was used, the same analog pre-amp was used, and the same amp was used. Only the digital input was different. In this case the DSD digital sounded better than the PCM version.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
F1, I think you'd be surprised to know which SACD players actually downsample and then upsample to 24bit. The Denon 2910 & 3910 being prime examples that jump to mind. Personally, I've heard excellent examples of both.
There was a similar controversy with CDP's whether or not to upsample. Obviously there are soe excellent upsampling CDP's, But I enjoy the sound of my Consonance CD-120 which is non-upsampling. It's preference and many times the difference is the component's circuitry and not the method in which it's processed. Just how I see it.design is where science and art break even. -
That is the whole point. The only difference between the same SACD decoded through two sources was one is DSD, and the other is LPCM. The same DAC was used, the same analog pre-amp was used, and the same amp was used. Only the digital input was different. In this case the DSD digital sounded better than the PCM version.
But the sources were two different players (one a sony, one an Oppo), yeah?design is where science and art break even. -
But the sources were two different players (one a sony, one an Oppo), yeah?
Yes, but as I said;Of course, this was only a 1 SACD test so it really does not mean anything other than a personal experience.
Then again, there is the argument that digital is digital, so PCM from one player should be the same as PCM from another player, and DSD from one player should be DSD from another player.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
F1, I think you'd be surprised to know which SACD players actually downsample and then upsample to 24bit. The Denon 2910 & 3910 being prime examples that jump to mind. Personally, I've heard excellent examples of both.
I do not believe I have heard either of those. I have heard SACD on the 2900. I don't know if that one converts to PCM or not, but I was not impressed at all.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
One other point, or question, is that I do not know how a SACD is converted to PCM. Is there also a high-res PCM version on the SACD, or is there a DSD to PCM conversion done by another device? If there is another device (player, processor, etc.) doing the DSD to PCM conversion then that implies the conversion algorithm and/or implementation could have a bug, or at least be improved. Then again, I am just guessing here, and trying to understand why the Sony DSD and Oppo PCM sounded so different.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
That is the whole point. The only difference between the same SACD decoded through two sources was one is DSD, and the other is LPCM. The same DAC was used, the same analog pre-amp was used, and the same amp was used. Only the digital input was different. In this case the DSD digital sounded better than the PCM version.
But the decoding was taking place in the Sony DA7100ES.....at least I think that's right.....getting confused at this late hour. So, if I am thinking correctly, the difference would be down to the transport and power supply.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Is there also a high-res PCM version on the SACD
Definitely not.doing the DSD to PCM conversion then that implies the conversion algorithm and/or implementation could have a bug, or at least be improved.
Less likely to have a bug....more likely it could be improved upon.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I use mine about once a week. I really like the sound I get from the tube output stage.Sunfire TGP, Sunfire Cinema Grand, Sunfire 300~2 (2), Sunfire True Sub (2),Carver ALS Platinum, Carver AL III, TFM-55, C-19, C-9, TX-8, SDA-490t, SDA-390t
