anyone have honda civic know-how?

sucks2beme

I hate to be a nag about scan tools and meters, but it's darn near
impossible to work on anything without it anymore. I always have at least one
older car around. And it's not that expensive to buy anymore,either
new or used from CL or a pawn shop. This isn't directed at you, as much
as everyone in general. I've had the wife freak out about the dash light
and started making arrangements to get it into the shop. About 5 minutes
later, problem solved, loose fuel cap. No jerking around, no wasted day at the
shop. It pays it's self off with the 1st use. Not much in the old tool box
can say that(other than vicegrips!).

sda2mike

heiney9 wrote: »

If it broke at start up, catastrophic

If it skipped, catastrophic

If it's hanging by a thread, car should run as normal until it breaks or skips, then catastrophic.

Do you understand what is meant by "interference" valve train?

H9

yes i do

heiney9

sda2mike wrote: »

yes i do

Ok, just checking.

sda2mike

sucks2beme wrote: »

I hate to be a nag about scan tools and meters, but it's darn near
impossible to work on anything without it anymore. I always have at least one
older car around. And it's not that expensive to buy anymore,either
new or used from CL or a pawn shop. This isn't directed at you, as much
as everyone in general. I've had the wife freak out about the dash light
and started making arrangements to get it into the shop. About 5 minutes
later, problem solved, loose fuel cap. No jerking around, no wasted day at the
shop. It pays it's self off with the 1st use. Not much in the old tool box
can say that(other than vicegrips!).

good point, thanks...this is only the 2nd time in 15 years that this car failed to show up for work...1st time was the distributor...now this...so, i haven't done a whole lot other than maintenence...i would really like to get 1 more year...so, things will be breaking, i'm sure

Jstas

sda2mike wrote: »

what if it broke on start up attempt? what if it skipped? what if it's hanging on by a thread and is about to break? this is what i'm going to look at...then i'll rent a scan tool..to figure out if the igniter is suspect

Igniter won't throw a code. It's not directly monitored. If the igniter fails, you get a constant spark from the spark plug instead of a pulsed spark. A scan tool is not likely to tell you if it failed.

A scan tool will tell you if you have a fuel pressure problem. It'll probably even tell you that timing is out of whack too.

sda2mike

Jstas wrote: »

Igniter won't throw a code. It's not directly monitored. If the igniter fails, you get a constant spark from the spark plug instead of a pulsed spark. A scan tool is not likely to tell you if it failed.

A scan tool will tell you if you have a fuel pressure problem. It'll probably even tell you that timing is out of whack too.

spark is pulsing

Joe08867

SDA1C wrote: »

I don't mean to point out the obvious because I'm sure you are already aware and simply miss spoke...but when ever has a slipped belt caused valve to valve contact. When looking for somewhere to spew your comprehensive knowledge you might want to have your facts in order...just sayin...

If the timing belt in an interference engine slipped there would be valve to piston contact. How much would depend on how far the belt slipped.

But thanks for adding nothing to the conversation. Go raise your post count somewhere else..

Joe08867

I am well aware of the motor in question. And I am 90% sure I know what is wrong with it but the OP hasn't had the ability to check it yet.

Sorry, I don't feel well today and my previous post wasn't meant to be so angry sounding.

sda2mike

for those who are counting the engine is sohc and 4 valves per cyl,

SDA1C

oop. Then I guess that non valve contact doesnt play? No worries about the bad day friend...I'm stuckinillinois not many ARE any good lol.

joeparaski

sda2mike wrote: »

i replaced the starter because it sounded like it was just spinning..since the solenoid is not sold separately, i got the whole thing..i have the old one back on the car...i have a manual...i'll be getting a scan tool tonite...if no luck tonight, then she goes on the flatbed

It's the "spinning" starter sound that is a dead giveaway that the timing belt broke (assuming it isn't actually the starter, which is not a common failure on a Honda).

To the untrained ear, that "spinning starter" sound is usually mistaken for a starter when it's actually a broken timing belt. The starter is actually spinning fast because it only has to turn the crank without any buildup of compression due to some valves being in the open position (either bent or they just stopped at that point when the belt broke.) Btw, t-belts often fail at start-up rather than when the engine is actually running.

Just take off the oil cap, have someone crank the engine and see if there is any activity in there. If you don't see the cam turning, it's bye bye cylinder head.

Joe

Jstas

joeparaski wrote: »

It's the "spinning" starter sound that is a dead giveaway that the timing belt broke (assuming it isn't actually the starter, which is not a common failure on a Honda).
Joe

Stop being right, Joe. It's not very becoming!

Beside, who would have thought of that?!?! I mean, c'mon, really now! :rolleyes: :eek: :biggrin:

Joe08867 wrote: »

I wonder if your belt jumped timing. If it is due to be changed it may have slipped and your timing went with it..

sda2mike wrote: »

spark and fuel may not be enough? i dunno...he's a former ase cert mechanic...i'm thinking the belt theory makes sense here..like you, i'm no meshanik

Polkie2009 wrote: »

I had a Honda accord once that was running fine one day and the next time I tried starting it, the engine would turn freely but would not run. Broken timing belt.

Joe08867 wrote: »

I am also ASE Certified but that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee nowadays. Just Kidding. I doubt the brake cleaner will help. If your getting fuel and spark there is little need to flood the car with more flammable vapors.

Can you get to the timing cover?

heiney9 wrote: »

You notice anything different like that when cranking her over? I assume this Honda is the std 2-valves per cylinder head? Some cars with multiple valve heads are interferance engines, meaning if you slip even one tooth on the timing belt the valves will hit each other or the piston or both and do serious damage.

I guess my point is, if it;s a multi-valve head and the timing did slip you'd most likely have valve damage. But that's not the case in every multi-valve head.

heiney9 wrote: »

Ah yes, completely broken, not just slipped a tooth or two.

H9

Jstas wrote: »

If your timing belt did jump, most Honduh engines are interference engines and you could have a damaged valve train or a broken piston. If the engine sounds like it's "freewheeling" the you need to look in the inspection port of the timing cover and see if the top cog is spinning. You could also take the valve cover off and watch the cam. If nothing is moving, you need a new timing belt and maybe more work.

Jstas wrote: »

In Hondas, it's not just multi-valve heads. Most of the Honda 4 cylinders and V6's are interference engines. Only the really small ones like the old 1.3L and the really big ones like the 2.4L 4 cylinders with 2 valves are non-interference.

There is an inspection port. Probably covered by a rubber plug, near the top of the timing gear housing. It should be on the backside, closest to the valve cover. A flathead screwdriver will pry it out. Get a flash light and someone to turn the key. Look in the hole with a flashlight while some one else turns the key. Movement should be obvious. Sometimes the belt will move around but the cog is the important part. You can also remove the valve cover and look if you so desire.

sda2mike wrote: »

i do have spark...i have to inspect the belt...i'm thinking it slipped...

heiney9 wrote: »

If it did, as has been stated several times before, with an interference engine you would notice (hear) damage to the valve train. Unless just slipping one tooth keeps the valves from hitting each other and/or a piston(s). Usually when the belt slips or breaks, it's catastrophic.

H9

starkiller wrote: »

Bet the timing belt broke. Happened to me in my Subie, I started it, backing down the driveway it just stopped. It broke and off to the dealer it went.

heiney9 wrote: »

Wow, again if the timing belt broke it would result in catastrophic faliure of the valve train. I'm sure there are a few documented instances where someone got lucky with an interference engine and there was little to no damage, but if the timing belt broke on this Honda you would know it.

Is anyone else going to chime in about a broken timing belt?

H9

heiney9 wrote: »

If it broke at start up, catastrophic most likely.

If it skipped, catastrophic

If it's hanging by a thread, car should run as normal until it breaks or skips, then catastrophic.

Do you understand what is meant by "interference" valve train?

H9

Joe08867 wrote: »

If the timing belt in an interference engine slipped there would be valve to piston contact. How much would depend on how far the belt slipped.

But thanks for adding nothing to the conversation. Go raise your post count somewhere else..

joeparaski

I didn't get in on this post early enough Jstas...I just had to put in my 2 cents.:biggrin::biggrin:

Joe

Jstas

Is that 2 cents Canadian or 2 cents U.S.?

tonyb

Usually when a timing belt breaks, it does some damage. Thats why it's best to do so before they break, obviously. Sounds like it maybe toast. Don't know if it's worth dropping that kinda coin into that old of a car. It might be prudent to start cruising craigslist for another beater.

sda2mike

it's off to the mechanic today...he's thinking timing belt...he's a family friend:biggrin:...hopefully he can get it squared away, then i'll sell it..
i'll update thursday when i hear the prognosis


thanks
mike

sda2mike

well...it's not catastrophic, at all


SPARK PLUGS!!!!!


mechanic said this particular (update later) brand has had problems. they've been in the car for 28k! he had a set of ngk laying around, popped em in and the car runs fine!:rolleyes:

i'm glad he's a family friend and a good guy..

thanks for all the input

mike

heiney9

sda2mike wrote: »

well...it's not catastrophic, at all


SPARK PLUGS!!!!!


mechanic said this particular (update later) brand has had problems. they've been in the car for 28k! he had a set of ngk laying around, popped em in and the car runs fine!:rolleyes:

i'm glad he's a family friend and a good guy..

thanks for all the input

mike

Always start with the simple stuff first. I have a set Bosch Platinums in my GTi VR6 and I believe they have close 40K+ on them and not a single issue. In fact I was thinking the other day it's been a long time since I've changed plugs, but I don't put a lot of miles on my car, probably 7-8K a year so these are over 4 years old.

sda2mike

heiney9 wrote: »

Always start with the simple stuff first. I have a set Bosch Platinums in my GTi VR6 and I believe they have close 40K+ on them and not a single issue. In fact I was thinking the other day it's been a long time since I've changed plugs, but I don't put a lot of miles on my car, probably 7-8K a year so these are over 4 years old.

when the mechanic got to my house, he figured the belt skipped...he was just as surprised...visual inspection showed a blue spark! just not strong enough, i guess...who could have known????

a professional, thats who!:biggrin:

Joe08867

Glad to hear it isn't catastrophic.

sda2mike

Joe08867 wrote: »

Glad to hear it isn't catastrophic.

thanks

he did say the compression was low...but not out of the average for a 15 yr old car w 188,ooo miles

heiney9

It's always great when you think you might have a huge car repair bill and it turns out to be something inexpensive and simple.

H9

Zeros

If you need a scan tool and cant rent one, you can pick this one up from Advance auto for $30.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product__9020005-P_N3389_T|GRP2018____

I just picked it up the other day to check my wife's car. Use the coupon code EMD5 to take $20 off of $50. You will have to add one other thing to get over $50 (I added 30 cent cotter pins).

Edit: Looks link I'm a bit late, but I will leave this up for anyone interested in a cheap OBDII reader or the AA $20 off $50 code itself.

sda2mike

heiney9 wrote: »

It's always great when you think you might have a huge car repair bill and it turns out to be something inexpensive and simple.

H9

yep...i think i'll celebrate

sda2mike

Zeros wrote: »

If you need a scan tool and cant rent one, you can pick this one up from Advance auto for $30.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product__9020005-P_N3389_T|GRP2018____

I just picked it up the other day to check my wife's car. Use the coupon code EMD5 to take $20 off of $50. You will have to add one other thing to get over $50 (I added 30 cent cotter pins).

Edit: Looks link I'm a bit late, but I will leave this up for anyone interested in a cheap OBDII reader or the AA $20 off $50 code itself.

great info! thanks

sda2mike

more good news!

the compression is fine:redface:

when the car was a non-starter, all that unburned fuel washed the oil off the cylinder walls...so, initially he was getting a low reading...then he pulled the plugs and squirted oil in the cylinder and the comp is fine!

SO glad i knew this guy! anywhere else they woulda had a field day

mewisemagic

well, thats good news. but you still need to check/change that timing belt before it does break

sda2mike

mewisemagic wrote: »

well, thats good news. but you still need to check/change that timing belt before it does break

mechanic did check it...seems fine...car will be put up for sale...i'm taking this episode as a sign

joeparaski

You threw us off with your "spinning starter" description of the problem. I'm glad it isn't the t-belt...btw, is it the original belt? Because at 188,000 miles I wouldn't trust it no matter how it looks.

Joe

Joe08867

I think he said the belt had 95,000 on it. I would replace it in either case. I don't run them past 60-70,000 myself.