Why wouldn't you modify your gear?
treitz3
Posts: 19,150
An intriguing question/statement was brought up on this forum last night and I'd like to take this opportunity to talk about it. Here's a quote from the thread...
Well, to answer the first question...to me? Everything can be enjoyed by the listener when in stock form. Even those who own BOSE products. The beauty is in the beholder and for some folks, the stock form is all that will ever be needed.
Going on to the second question...
It is of my opinion that the mod crowd IS serious. Why else would they be modding their precious gear in the first place, no matter the original cost? Car owners do it when they want the ultimate in performance from an already extremely well built Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 or say, a Saleen Mustang. The engineers have already spent countless hours on making one hell of a car BUT, there's nothing that stops the owner from tweaking it to make the performance better. The same would go into an energy efficient house. There's always room for improvement. Those that have the know-how to improve on something that is already a great product should not be shot down, IMO.
It is a well known fact that Polk [along with countless other speaker manufacturers] use what I wouldn't consider "inferior" products in their speakers, but products that hit the nail on the head at the particular price point that they are trying to cater too. Can Polk make a $50,000 speaker? You bet. Is that the market they are trying to corner the market on? Absolutely not.
In my own experience, I'm tired of spending thousands of dollars to gain little when it comes to the overall performance of my rig. The one thing I have learned in my audio journey is that while the stock form may be great, modding things sometimes yields an incredible price to performance ratio. Much like changing the chip in a car would sometimes dramatically improve the overall performance of said car for a relatively minimal cost [as opposed to changing the engine, for example].
Many, many, many moons ago I modded my first pair of Cerwin Vega speakers. I had no technical experience at that point, nor did I care. All I knew was that the tweeter in the speakers didn't work to well with my ears. So, I put in some tweeters I had laying around in a box and got rid of the inline cap leading to the tweeter. You know what? It may have been blind luck, but those speakers all of a sudden sounded pretty damn good [at the time]. 20 years later, they are still in use at one of my friends houses and he couldn't be happier. Whenever I go over there, they still sound surprisingly pretty decent. Not audiophile, but nothing worth shaking your head at either.
There are also many on this forum that change their gear in a different fashion. That is the upgrade of IC's, SC's and PC's. Whether or not you believe in the sonic differences they can achieve for you, folks still do it. I would like to argue that this is a sort of "mod". When the Rat-Shack red and white IC will do, why change the IC in the first place? 98% of this forum already knows the answer to that question.
There have been slightly modified to heavily modified things I have purchased and had in my various rigs over the years that I have been able to directly compare to the stock counterpart. I can say with absolute certainty that the modded items have overwhelmingly done a better job and offered a greater sonic performance than the stock counterparts. I have also had this same observation on many a system I did not own, but had the chance to evaluate.
I would also like to argue that changing out a tube, or tubes, in a system would also be considered "modding" the unit based upon the aforementioned quote. Everybody who has ever owned a tubed unit before knows what changing a tube can do to the end result as to what hits your ears. Why wouldn't changing a tube be considered a modification when, as the quote above says "When will the mod crowd get SERIOUS about it, and stop tweaking what engineers spent countless hours on, and make their own statement product?". I am guessing that the chosen tube of the engineers is the one and only tube that should be considered because of the countless hours of design and research? That's ludicrous!
There is a big difference between a part that costs a dollar or less for the mass production of things and a part that is specific to audio applications, that may cost into the hundreds of dollars, with the research and applications to prove it. Most of the mods [that I have noticed on this forum] done to gear....do not change the values that the engineer provided, just an upgrade of the parts originally provided. Nothing wrong with improving things, IMO.
That all said, there have been many a testament on this and other forums that modding audio gear [with proper knowledge, application and installation] has yielded an increase in sonic performance. In my own audio journey, I am slowly discovering that while many trust the engineers and companies that sell me "ready to go" products, modding things is the way to go if you have the know-how. Had I known about modding earlier on in my own personal audio journey, I am completely confident that I would have kept many of the items I have since sold off. Especially the VMPS Larger after hearing what Trey did to it. Holy Crap, what a difference!!!
In conclusion, I feel that the stock form of many a product sounds great. The Dodd MLP tubed pre, for example. Can it be improved on? I'll find out. Also, while the engineers may have had their best efforts in mind when designing a particular product? That doesn't mean that corporate, marketing or any other factor didn't have any say [or changes] in the final product that went out the door. With this said, there is room for improvement. Just as one would want to improve the choice of tubes, one would like to improve the choice of internal components within a piece of gear that already performs great.
There is always room for improvement. Why deny it or look down on those that seek to raise the bar? We are all in this hobby to get the best of what we have out of our rigs. I don't get why one would stop at just the stock product. Limitations. Not me, not my rig and not along my audio journey. No thanks.
Where do you stand on the modification of your gear?
Can anything be enjoyed in non mod form? When will the mod crowd get SERIOUS about it, and stop tweaking what engineers spent countless hours on, and make their own statement product?
Well, to answer the first question...to me? Everything can be enjoyed by the listener when in stock form. Even those who own BOSE products. The beauty is in the beholder and for some folks, the stock form is all that will ever be needed.
Going on to the second question...
It is of my opinion that the mod crowd IS serious. Why else would they be modding their precious gear in the first place, no matter the original cost? Car owners do it when they want the ultimate in performance from an already extremely well built Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 or say, a Saleen Mustang. The engineers have already spent countless hours on making one hell of a car BUT, there's nothing that stops the owner from tweaking it to make the performance better. The same would go into an energy efficient house. There's always room for improvement. Those that have the know-how to improve on something that is already a great product should not be shot down, IMO.
It is a well known fact that Polk [along with countless other speaker manufacturers] use what I wouldn't consider "inferior" products in their speakers, but products that hit the nail on the head at the particular price point that they are trying to cater too. Can Polk make a $50,000 speaker? You bet. Is that the market they are trying to corner the market on? Absolutely not.
In my own experience, I'm tired of spending thousands of dollars to gain little when it comes to the overall performance of my rig. The one thing I have learned in my audio journey is that while the stock form may be great, modding things sometimes yields an incredible price to performance ratio. Much like changing the chip in a car would sometimes dramatically improve the overall performance of said car for a relatively minimal cost [as opposed to changing the engine, for example].
Many, many, many moons ago I modded my first pair of Cerwin Vega speakers. I had no technical experience at that point, nor did I care. All I knew was that the tweeter in the speakers didn't work to well with my ears. So, I put in some tweeters I had laying around in a box and got rid of the inline cap leading to the tweeter. You know what? It may have been blind luck, but those speakers all of a sudden sounded pretty damn good [at the time]. 20 years later, they are still in use at one of my friends houses and he couldn't be happier. Whenever I go over there, they still sound surprisingly pretty decent. Not audiophile, but nothing worth shaking your head at either.
There are also many on this forum that change their gear in a different fashion. That is the upgrade of IC's, SC's and PC's. Whether or not you believe in the sonic differences they can achieve for you, folks still do it. I would like to argue that this is a sort of "mod". When the Rat-Shack red and white IC will do, why change the IC in the first place? 98% of this forum already knows the answer to that question.
There have been slightly modified to heavily modified things I have purchased and had in my various rigs over the years that I have been able to directly compare to the stock counterpart. I can say with absolute certainty that the modded items have overwhelmingly done a better job and offered a greater sonic performance than the stock counterparts. I have also had this same observation on many a system I did not own, but had the chance to evaluate.
I would also like to argue that changing out a tube, or tubes, in a system would also be considered "modding" the unit based upon the aforementioned quote. Everybody who has ever owned a tubed unit before knows what changing a tube can do to the end result as to what hits your ears. Why wouldn't changing a tube be considered a modification when, as the quote above says "When will the mod crowd get SERIOUS about it, and stop tweaking what engineers spent countless hours on, and make their own statement product?". I am guessing that the chosen tube of the engineers is the one and only tube that should be considered because of the countless hours of design and research? That's ludicrous!
There is a big difference between a part that costs a dollar or less for the mass production of things and a part that is specific to audio applications, that may cost into the hundreds of dollars, with the research and applications to prove it. Most of the mods [that I have noticed on this forum] done to gear....do not change the values that the engineer provided, just an upgrade of the parts originally provided. Nothing wrong with improving things, IMO.
That all said, there have been many a testament on this and other forums that modding audio gear [with proper knowledge, application and installation] has yielded an increase in sonic performance. In my own audio journey, I am slowly discovering that while many trust the engineers and companies that sell me "ready to go" products, modding things is the way to go if you have the know-how. Had I known about modding earlier on in my own personal audio journey, I am completely confident that I would have kept many of the items I have since sold off. Especially the VMPS Larger after hearing what Trey did to it. Holy Crap, what a difference!!!
In conclusion, I feel that the stock form of many a product sounds great. The Dodd MLP tubed pre, for example. Can it be improved on? I'll find out. Also, while the engineers may have had their best efforts in mind when designing a particular product? That doesn't mean that corporate, marketing or any other factor didn't have any say [or changes] in the final product that went out the door. With this said, there is room for improvement. Just as one would want to improve the choice of tubes, one would like to improve the choice of internal components within a piece of gear that already performs great.
There is always room for improvement. Why deny it or look down on those that seek to raise the bar? We are all in this hobby to get the best of what we have out of our rigs. I don't get why one would stop at just the stock product. Limitations. Not me, not my rig and not along my audio journey. No thanks.
Where do you stand on the modification of your gear?
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
Post edited by treitz3 on
Comments
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Tom, I agree, sure, everything can or could be improved on, but where does it end? I also think you are leaving out the psychology behind it all, and especially with the audio crowd, (not all) A LOT of people want to simply stand out.
Having a modified peice of gear puts them in a more 'elite' group, and in some cases renders the retail price point of whatever gear is in question, moot. This is true, we have all seen it.
Limitations? Sure, but where do you draw the line? I'll use Trey's post for example. First of all, I am THRILLED he is happy, that's all that matters. Could the the loads of improvement be achieved by spending the money on better cables, a better amp, a better source etc? He went hardcore, not just a $100 cap swap.
I'm not saying Trey has gone off the deep end, what I am saying is the audio community, and this board especially seems to have gone 'cap crazy'. Throw the biggest, most exotic, most expensive thing you can afford in there, and it MUST sound better. The weird thing to me, is not one single person has said they didn't like a mod, or upgrade. Not one? Every single time it was better, and most often it was 'life changing', come to Jesus good? Wouldn't just basic statistics and odds generate at least a few negative thoughts?
Cheers,
RussCheck your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service. -
Where does it end? Now, that's another good question. I'll admit that.
As far as negative feedback? You may have missed it [and there are others], but did you read the review of the Dayton resistors? That was a mod with a negative review. There are more but I can't think of them right now. Maybe those who have offered negative upgrade review in the past will chime in.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Wouldn't just basic statistics and odds generate at least a few negative thoughts?
When going from electrolytics to film/foil? Not a chance.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Ahhh, thanks for posting Jesse. You reminded me of another one. Mortite. Jesse had "upgraded" to Mortite and did not like the end result.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Limitations? Sure, but where do you draw the line? I'll use Trey's post for example. First of all, I am THRILLED he is happy, that's all that matters. Could the the loads of improvement be achieved by spending the money on better cables, a better amp, a better source etc? He went hardcore, not just a $100 cap swap.
Excellent question.
While I have had these speakers I have upgraded my amps to the Kismet line from Odyssey. Improvement? Yes, mind bogglingly so? no
Cables? MIT Shotgun S2 from Signal Cable - very large improvement, again not like the crossovers.
Source? Symphonic Line Klarheit II -- HUGE upgrade over my Shanling I had. Much better than the Jolida that I have heard. An incredibly expensive CD player that I would have to spend far more to get an upgrade from my experience. This player is on par with a Wadia I had the pleasure of demoing in my house.
Crossovers was the most logical choice to upgrade and it has paid off. I have about peaked every avenue of my system that counts.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
Now it could be said I was able to experience the upgrade like I did because of the gear?- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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Agreed. That would play a big part as opposed to someone who had an AVR, Rat Shack cables, a K-Mart CDP and.........well, you get the picture.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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The best one for me was a guy running a cheap Yamaha receiver to power Lsi's and belted out in pain he needs to upgrade his crossover in the center channel as he's tired of listening to it. Funnier is others encouraged this and never took the time to figure out why would one be unhappy with a center channel that matches the main channel speakers.
LOLDan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Another upgrade that didn't quite yield the results wanted would be the bypass cap. A friend of mine called me today and reminded me about it after I asked. The thread is lost somewhere in the depths of the forum about it, I just can't find it for reference. My apologies. This is just another example of a upgrade gone bad.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Bypass cap is a bandaid for cheap caps.
Alot of times if you upgrade with good components you can bypass the bypass cap.
Case in point I did this on my SM450 surrounds -- cheap cap with a bypass, it does not even compare in the same ballpark to the Auricap that my center channels use.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
I have heard this retarded statement before. Sheer ignorance. Everything in the lower to mid class in nearly any hobby has compromises. Products are made for the masses and not for the individual. With audio most of us are here because we love great sound, but for the general consumer they would not hear a sizable difference with associated gear and improper implementing of their gear. Also if a company sells 1,000,000 units and saves $10 each on parts the company "makes" an additional $10,000,000. Another thing is the numbers game. Unfortunately people are taught and in general believe that numbers tell the truth about sound quality. Engineers know this so they plug away at making fantastic numbers and don't design using their ears. In the end that is all most consumers are going to look at anyway. I am not saying all engineers are bad, but many have bosses that are not engineers that have the companies "best interests" to look out for.Can anything be enjoyed in non mod form? When will the mod crowd get SERIOUS about it, and stop tweaking what engineers spent countless hours on, and make their own statement product?
EDIT: BTW I WOULDN'T QUOTE MISS CAPS LOCK ON ANYTHING. SHE WAS REFERRING TO SPEAKER MODS USING THE SAME VALUE COMPONENTS. TO CALL THAT RE ENGINEERING WOULD BE LIKE SAYING PUTTING BETTER TIRES ON A CAR THAN STOCK EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE THE SAME SIZE WOULD BE CONSIDERED RE ENGINEERING:rolleyes:Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
Thanks
Ben -
The best one for me was a guy running a cheap Yamaha receiver to power Lsi's and belted out in pain he needs to upgrade his crossover in the center channel as he's tired of listening to it. Funnier is others encouraged this and never took the time to figure out why would one be unhappy with a center channel that matches the main channel speakers.
LOL
That was pretty weak Dan. The person you are refering to is already looking into an amp and is going to do the XO mods too. Sorry he isn't doing them in the order you prefer. Have you spent any time with modded LSi's? Didn't think so.
CheersPlease. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
Thanks
Ben -
Ben, I loves ya' bro'......but I don't want this to get into a fist fight over the internet. I'm merely seeking observations on the subject. You make good points but could we keep it at that, please?~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Too late, it is pointless to express an opinion here anymore. Carry on, enjoy the music.Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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HeHe Just trying to make a point. Another thing is improved parts come out all the time. I am mostly thinking OpAmps
Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
Thanks
Ben -
One of my upgrades didn't turn out as I wanted and I post my dislike and took it out. not everyone that has done an upgrade has said it sounded better...
So one that finally jumps into tubes puts them in an elite group as well?? I thought this was a hobby. Why upgrade your gear??? Because it's FUN!!! once you figure out some basics and soldering skills. My HT rig is all stock and I'm happy with it..
Larry.Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎
SVS SB16 X2
Cary SLP-05/Ultimate Upgrade.
Cary SA-500.1 ES Amps
Cary DMS 800PV Network
OPPO UDP 205/ModWright Modification
VPI Scout TT / Dynavector 20x2
Jolida JD9 Fully Modified
VPI MW-1 Cyclone RCM
MIT Shotgun 3 cables throughout / Except TT, and PC’s -
Not to beat a dead horse but in my situation my next step is going to be the crossover upgrade to my lsi15s. The price associated with the upgrades should yield a bigger improvement than selling my 15s and LSIC (total of what $900?) and then using the upgrade money $300 and buying 3 new front speakers. If for $1200 anybody that has upgrade problems can find me a better front 3 in the same condition my LSI's are in and sound/look better I am all ears...
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grimmace19 wrote: »Not to beat a dead horse but in my situation my next step is going to be the crossover upgrade to my lsi15s. The price associated with the upgrades should yield a bigger improvement than selling my 15s and LSIC (total of what $900?) and then using the upgrade money $300 and buying 3 new front speakers. If for $1200 anybody that has upgrade problems can find me a better front 3 in the same condition my LSI's are in and sound/look better I am all ears...
Can't be done but you already know that.:biggrin:
speaking I get to help right?? Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎
SVS SB16 X2
Cary SLP-05/Ultimate Upgrade.
Cary SA-500.1 ES Amps
Cary DMS 800PV Network
OPPO UDP 205/ModWright Modification
VPI Scout TT / Dynavector 20x2
Jolida JD9 Fully Modified
VPI MW-1 Cyclone RCM
MIT Shotgun 3 cables throughout / Except TT, and PC’s -
Great thread.
I'll admit, my new to me LSi9's sound really good now and I am skeptical of upgrading them. BUT, I think I will anyway just to gain the experience and hear the sound for myself.
Fun hobby! -
That's exactly why I purchased the speakers you once owned. Just to gain the experience and hear the sound for myself. ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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The best one for me was a guy running a cheap Yamaha receiver to power Lsi's and belted out in pain he needs to upgrade his crossover in the center channel as he's tired of listening to it. Funnier is others encouraged this and never took the time to figure out why would one be unhappy with a center channel that matches the main channel speakers.
LOL
I'm pretty sure I ripped ya a new one on that thread when you questioned my choice to upgrade. Furthermore in the first post of that thread, I made it clear I was picking up new gear IN ADDITION to modifying the crossovers, not just modding the crossovers. I will state yet AGAIN that I have already heard them better gear than my Yamaha, and love them, but they can be improved. Why don't you get off your high horse, go listen to some upgraded LSis, and stop trying to bash me. Thanks.- Computer Rig -
YAΘIN MS-20L, polkaudio RT5
- Main Rig -
Pioneer SC-37, Overnight Sensations, Samsung 52" LCD
- Currently In Progress -
Curt Campbell's Uluwatu LCR, LMS Ultra Gjallarhorn, JBL W15GTi stereo subs, 2.1 entertainment system for the gf -
Jim don't you love it when someone tries to bash you without even reading your first post:rolleyes:Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
Thanks
Ben -
Jim don't you love it when someone tries to bash you without even reading your first post:rolleyes:
Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside every single time
- Computer Rig -
YAΘIN MS-20L, polkaudio RT5
- Main Rig -
Pioneer SC-37, Overnight Sensations, Samsung 52" LCD
- Currently In Progress -
Curt Campbell's Uluwatu LCR, LMS Ultra Gjallarhorn, JBL W15GTi stereo subs, 2.1 entertainment system for the gf -
Edit: I'm out!!!Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎
SVS SB16 X2
Cary SLP-05/Ultimate Upgrade.
Cary SA-500.1 ES Amps
Cary DMS 800PV Network
OPPO UDP 205/ModWright Modification
VPI Scout TT / Dynavector 20x2
Jolida JD9 Fully Modified
VPI MW-1 Cyclone RCM
MIT Shotgun 3 cables throughout / Except TT, and PC’s -
Russ, while you may think and others may think that modifying gear may put whomever into a select or "elitist" group? I do not.Having a modified piece of gear puts them in a more 'elite' group, and in some cases renders the retail price point of whatever gear is in question, moot. This is true, we have all seen it.
It just puts them into the realm of those that want to venture further into the hobby. Beyond that of which is stock. Nothing more, nothing less. Some get the mods done by someone else, or a business that does it for them. Others do it them self. No big deal, as it's just a yearning to know what gear they may have already may present. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
To answer your question on why [most of the time] it works? Well, I would say that most folks who want to "screw" with the gear they have paid dearly for in the first place have already done research, called folks and talked with folks who have already done what they are planning on doing. Hence, the success rate.
I could be wrong, I could be right. I don't know. What I do know is that with all of the folks I have dealt with when it comes to upgrades? This has been the case.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I think I have one of the easiest answers as to why we mod things, whether it be audio gear, cars, etc....this should not come as a shock to most of you but the majority of people with these hobbies are male. And what do men like to do? We love to tinker around with things and will always try to improve things, it's in our nature....reminds me of Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor on the TV show Home Improvement As I'm watching the snow fall I decided I need to mod my subwoofer so that it can send out a shockwave to clear all the snow from my driveway...hmmmmm. I love animals, they're delicious!
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If you get that sub figured out, I'm interested :biggrin:- Computer Rig -
YAΘIN MS-20L, polkaudio RT5
- Main Rig -
Pioneer SC-37, Overnight Sensations, Samsung 52" LCD
- Currently In Progress -
Curt Campbell's Uluwatu LCR, LMS Ultra Gjallarhorn, JBL W15GTi stereo subs, 2.1 entertainment system for the gf -
I wouldn't modify, because I'm not at that point, yet. Some day, I probably will mod some speakers just for the fun of it.
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If you get that sub figured out, I'm interested :biggrin:
Absolutely!!! I just have to figure out a way not to annihilate the neighbors house across the street at the same time
Damn neighbors:mad: I love animals, they're delicious! -
greyford1979 wrote: »Absolutely!!! I just have to figure out a way not to annihilate the neighbors house across the street at the same time Damn neighbors:mad:
Collateral damage happens - Computer Rig -
YAΘIN MS-20L, polkaudio RT5
- Main Rig -
Pioneer SC-37, Overnight Sensations, Samsung 52" LCD
- Currently In Progress -
Curt Campbell's Uluwatu LCR, LMS Ultra Gjallarhorn, JBL W15GTi stereo subs, 2.1 entertainment system for the gf
