Why wouldn't you modify your gear?

DarqueKnight

Modding (or hotrodding as me and my modding cohorts call it) is not a bad thing in and of itself. Like everything else, people sometimes use bad methods to do a good thing...which ends up creating a mess. If you don't have the proper knowledge, skill and tools to do a mod, then you should have sense enough to leave it alone. Unfortunately, not everyone has sense enough. In addition to having sense enough to know whether you can successfully complete a mod, you also have to have sense enough to know whether a mod makes sense within the context of the system and room in which it will be used.

Some companies actually encourage modifications to their products. PS Audio will not void the warranty on their products if recommended modifications have been done properly, especially if the mods are done by a reputable and qualified mod service. PS Audio CEO Paul McGowan has been very forthcoming about where they cut corners on certain products and they have been very forthcoming on mods that remedy those cut corners. The fan installation/modification I did on my VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine was 100% recommended by VPI and did not void the warranty. In the good old days, Adcom engineers were very enthusiastic about recommending modifications that removed "price point" performance bottlenecks. Where do you think I got the idea and initial instructions for modifying Polk SDA crossovers? I got them over the phone from a Polk engineer. Where do you think I got the idea for Mortite speaker seals and low DCR SDA inductors? I got them from the inventor of SDA's, Matthew Polk.

I've sold lots of modded gear over the years: CD players, turntables, amps, preamps and speakers. I always keep the stock parts in case I want to revert back to stock, either for resale or just because I didn't like the mod results. The only time I was asked to put a stock piece back in was the the polyswitch for a heavily modded pair of SDA 1C's. I think what helped my modded gear sales was lots of pictures, both inside and outside the piece, and very detailed explanations of why the mod was done and what improvements were obtained from the mod. I've offered modded gear for sale on Audiogon at a premium price and there would be an ad for the same piece, in stock condition, at a much lower price. There have been many cases where my modded premium priced piece sold quickly while the unmodded, yet like-new condition stock piece sat there.

Why mod rather than go up the ladder to a "better" piece of gear? Up is not always better, it might only be different. Sometimes you just like the sound of a particular component and want to enhance that sensation rather than move to something different that may be absolutely, quantitatively and measurably better, yet not as satisfying subjectively.

heiney9 wrote: »

Also using different cables both I/C's and power is a form of modding that most do here, including yourself. Why don't you use the I/C's and power cable that shipped with the unit. If it's good enough for the manufacturer to provide why go against what they feel is adequate for the product they designed?

Platinum, H9, platinum. That's real, big deal, sig material there.:biggrin:

steveinaz wrote: »

An example, the AVS forum in reference to calibrating an HDTV: Look how many "self-proclaimed" calibrators you have on that forum, that operate like a monkey. They "heard" that they need to go in their service menu and change settings x,y, and z for a better picture. What they didn't know, is that every single television is different, unique. But all they do know is that this is going to render a wonderful picture, and they won't have to pay an ISF calibrator $300 bucks.

Look how many are people there are practicing medicine, plastic surgery, law, engineering, cosmetology, investment management, architecture, building construction, etc. without the proper training, credentials, equipment and license. Audio is no different from any other field. People naturally want to save a buck. Unfortunately, a thrifty mindset can lead to a dark place that calls for expensive fixes...and sometimes jail and stiff fines.

TECHNOKID

FTGV wrote: »

I confess I'm an incurable tweaker. If I feel I can implement a mod that will squeeze more performance out of a component I'll do so.

GV, you are IMO part of the few that actually knows what they are doing (as often mentioned by a few above).

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

Just making sure everyone understand crossover modifications is simply taking a higher quality item of the same exact value and dropping it in place of a lesser quality product?

You are not altering anything about the speaker except giving it better parts. You are not changing crossover points or anything.

Done in such a way is definitely good because there is no altering in the engineering and provide for the better quality of parts that most manufacturing companies will neglect to install due to competition in their field of business/market. IE: replacing electrolytic caps for better quality of caps is IMO a quality improvement (be audible or not) especially when considering the improvement is done to old aging gear. Better tolerance would IMO also be an improvement as they provide for more accurate end results (@ the speakers). Modding the old gear with modern components is also at times a better solution/choice when considering the newer gear will never have the lifespan and efficiency of the older proven product which IMO NO manufacturing will consider or be able to afford to produce ever again.

However, I have witnessed on few occasions some suggesting to actually replace the value of such and such component. Personally, I am a technician, NOT an engineer and wouldn't dare do so unless using the approach DK has described in his post (which is consulting with the manufacturer prior to do so).

Some that should not be neglected when it comes the "modders" (as it was previously mentioned using car examples) is that the modding actually serves the industry. More likely just a small portion can be used by the engineers but I am convinced that some of the mods are eventually used down the road by manufacturers to improve their products (what was before engineers were ever invented? ).

As so many times pointed out on so many subject, "To each one their own". Be the mod valid or not, what IMO the only answer to the question the OP brought up is simply one word "PASSION" for this specific hobby and IMO "PASSION" is what gets things moving and improving. Potentially thousands of mods that are failure but the industry and audiophiles are eventually benefiting big times from the few/odd successful mods/upgrades.

In fact, we could be surprised how many failures the most hard core engineer(s) may had to go through themselves and how often he/they had to go back to the bench/drawing board starting at square one to eventually come out with the greatest improvement ever seen. IMO, it is the ones that are willing to fail on so many occasions that will almost always come up with the greatest success in upgrading and bringing electronics to the evolution it is at now and will be tomorrow.

TECHNOKID

Look how many are people there are practicing medicine, plastic surgery, law, engineering, cosmetology, investment management, architecture, building construction, etc. without the proper training, credentials, equipment and license. Audio is no different from any other field. People naturally want to save a buck. Unfortunately, a thrifty mindset can lead to a dark place that calls for expensive fixes...and sometimes jail and stiff fines.

That is actually real and sig material

I can recall our team of military technicians that found a little secret and was using Sony's parts to upgrade Sanyo VHS player and while no fines but ratter severe warning was enough to get our attention. Playing with components original values can at times be very costly when one doesn't know what he's doing and replaces just about anything with whathever is flavor of the days leads him to. I have witnessed/made money out of so many people that felt they knew what they were doing and simply worsened their gear. No fun going after such "know it all" to the point that you may consider seriously if the job is worth taking and if so at what cost to the "offender"!!!!

Toolfan66

If most don't know what they are doing and they mod a piece of their gear, and they are just following "the Fray" as you say,where the hell is one to start or learn???

I have followed many mods on this form with great success and have made many mods on my own. I guess that makes me part of THE FRAY!!! not because I want to learn and just have fun with "MY GEAR!!!" I guess one could be part of the fray and not mod their gear like you and and the others that don't..

Again where is one to start if one is not to be part of "THE FRAY??"

Now I do agree that some people just don't have mechanical skills or the common sense to study and or ask the questions needed to begin with and should leave the gear alone.. I never tackled anything till I understood what I was doing. Most of my mods have been in speakers but I have done some cap upgrades in my preamps and phono pre, but I asked questions before I got started..

Steve I am not trying to argue I just don't understand where one should start??

megasat16

Electronics have more leverage to mod than speakers in General. You have many big and small mods depends on how well you are versed with Electronics Theories and Concepts and the actual ideas. But it is not endless. Speakers have even lesser choice of mods available. But once you've done all the possible mods for the speakers and you hit a possible road block when the drivers and the enclosure become a limitation.

It's very possible you end up with a whole new speakers all the mods done. And you stop and realize that "Oh, wait! I think the drivers are the bottleneck in my speaker performance and I know it'll sound better with this new super duper driver". And most speaker don't have the driver upgrade available. So, you need to start all over again.

So, where does it stop?

treitz3

RuSsMaN wrote: »

I don't think it's a waste, and I'm not upset about anyone doing it. How many modded preamps and amps have I sold here, right here at good ole' Club Polk.

Trey's post just triggered a 'rant' for me, that's all. It wasn't even about Trey, my point is that caps are the flavor of the month. Not for the hardcore mod crowd, but the crowd in general. The stuff that Jesse, Trey, Raife has done is mind boggling, and awesome. Super hardcore.

I just feel like it's becoming one of the default answers to everything - right there with the 'you need at least 250 watts per channel' or what have you. Does that make ANY sense?

Cheers,
Russ

I apologize if you feel I was singling you out. I didn't even mention that it was you who quoted what actually started the "rant" on this thread.....well, until now. It wasn't about you. I guess we bounced off each other. You had a rant and I followed suit off of your rant.

For me? I have just come to a crossroads in my audio journey. At this point, I'm tired of spending thousands of dollars to make what I would consider minuscule improvements when I have the knowledge to spend hundreds and make what I would consider a stellar improvement.

You got me with your comment at a turning point for me. I had already made the decision that I will stop buying, swapping and selling gear and just concentrate on what great sounding rig I already have.......well......sound better.

Of course I will purchase more gear later to see if I can upgrade. I realize that no matter who you are or what you have, there is always something better out there. Maybe you and others can understand this. I have had in the past, very close to audio nirvana that yielded me so much musical enjoyment. What did I do? I went and tried to upgrade. To be honest, I should have stopped there and just tried to improve upon that system. Countless thousands later, I am on par to what I had......albeit a completely different system.

This time I'm not gonna upgrade. I'm gonna stay the course and improve on with what I have. It may or it may not work. Judging from the experiences I have evaluated in the past and recently? I have no problem doing so and I look quite forward to hearing the end result as to what hits my ears. Good thing is for me [Thanks to Trey, as we have very similar speakers by the same manufacturer] is I already have heard what the end result can be.....and I like it. Better than any upgrade I have had in the past 3 or 4 years, regardless of cost.

Saving $$$ is just a bonus.

treitz3

shack wrote: »

I am not a tweeker or modifier. I buy what sounds good to me...and run with it. The only gear modification I have is the upgraded tweeters and binding posts in my SDA ICs...and that was done by the previous owner. Now I will upgrade gear...but not modify it.

Also, once you go down the mod path...you have basically destroyed the resale value of that gear. Modified gear rarely has value to anyone other than the owner or someone who just happens to want that mod (the majority of buyers are like Steve).

Mistaaahh Shack Daddy! :biggrin:

I have a proposition for you, sir. I have recently acquired a heavily modded set of SDA 1C's that have been gone through, carefully modded and customized. I ask of you this, would you be willing to entertain the thought of trying this set in your house? This would be, of course, free of charge. I'll deliver them, help set them up and leave you alone for whatever time you feel necessary to evaluate them. They are currently down in Florida and it may take some time but I'd like to introduce to you the thought of having a highly modded set of what you currently have in your house, for you, to play with at your whim, for as long as you want. Within reason, of course.

If you are interested? I'm dead serious.

The only thing I would ask in return would be your evaluation of them and whether or not you still feel the same way about your comments above. Good or bad, whatever you feel. That's all I ask.

Toolfan66

treitz3 wrote: »

Mistaaahh Shack Daddy! :biggrin:

I have a proposition for you, sir. I have recently acquired a heavily modded set of SDA 1C's that have been gone through, carefully modded and customized. I ask of you this, would you be willing to entertain the thought of trying this set in your house? This would be, of course, free of charge. I'll deliver them, help set them up and leave you alone for whatever time you feel necessary to evaluate them. They are currently down in Florida and it may take some time but I'd like to introduce to you the thought of having a highly modded set of what you currently have in your house, for you, to play with at your whim, for as long as you want. Within reason, of course.

If you are interested? I'm dead serious.

The only thing I would ask in return would be your evaluation of them and whether or not you still feel the same way about your comments above. Good or bad, whatever you feel. That's all I ask.

Awesome Deal!!! :cool: I know my Modded 1C's are here to stay.

treitz3

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111556

The link above is the actual speakers I'm talking about, Shack. I have more rings coming and I may have the caps upgraded even further and fully broken in by the time you get them.

cokewithvanilla

I wouldn't modify my gear if:

I had a fear of damaging it in any way (cosmetically, functionally)
If it would void my warranty
If, for the cost of the upgrade (give or take a few), I could simply upgrade to something better
If it would negatively affect resale value (think of a giant spoiler and autozone flame stickers)

DarqueKnight

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

Just making sure everyone understand crossover modifications is simply taking a higher quality item of the same exact value and dropping it in place of a lesser quality product?

You are not altering anything about the speaker except giving it better parts. You are not changing crossover points or anything.

Every group has deviants. It seems some people project the deviant behavior of the few to the many. There are deviant modders who do bad things which butcher a nice piece of gear and there are good modders who do good things, under manufacturer or other credible advisement, which enhance the performance and value of gear.

It is ironic that some people assume that good modders are arrogantly implying that they know more about a product than the original designers and that, if the original designers had wanted a particular part or feature in a piece of gear, it would have been included. The truth is, things often get watered down from the original design specification due to the constraints of parts availability, market conditions and the need to meet a certain price point. The individual modder who is not bound by these constraints is free to replace parts that will result in a more optimal design that is closer to, or even identical to, the original design specification.

This is an interesting recent comment:

adcomcyclone wrote: »

Hello, I am new to the forum, but just picked up a set of SDA SRS and am interested in getting a set of the rings and tweeter brackets. I called Polk to order some replacement MW6503's and the rep on the phone even suggested looking into this!

Outfitter03

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

I wouldn't modify my gear if:

I had a fear of damaging it in any way (cosmetically, functionally)
If it would void my warranty
If, for the cost of the upgrade (give or take a few), I could simply upgrade to something better
If it would negatively affect resale value (think of a giant spoiler and autozone flame stickers)

I think this is an excellent list of reasons why most people do not modify audio equipment and speakers.

I bought a real nice set of Monitor 10s this year from someone who was active in this hobby. His mantra was you have have to have an exit plan. He had over 15 years of trading equipment and said he made an average of 10-15 audiogon sales a year. Searched for deals, listened a little while then sold. The only type of "Mod" he did was have a technician he knew, repair vintage tube equipment he purchased that was broken. This is where he made the most money. I also believe for him it was very much about the money!

So the other item that I would add to cokewithvanilla's list is:

I cannot make money or at least recover the money that I spend on the upgrade back when I decide to flip this item.

That is how I got a Cherry Set of Monitor 10's. This individual would have loved to hear them that way, but knew that if he upgraded with a good quality capacitor such as sonicaps, it would be hard to impossible to reclaim that upgrade money when the flip bug kicked in. Which for him I believe was about every 6 months.

shack

treitz3 wrote:

Mistaaahh Shack Daddy! :biggrin:

I have a proposition for you, sir. I have recently acquired a heavily modded set of SDA 1C's that have been gone through, carefully modded and customized. I ask of you this, would you be willing to entertain the thought of trying this set in your house? This would be, of course, free of charge. I'll deliver them, help set them up and leave you alone for whatever time you feel necessary to evaluate them. They are currently down in Florida and it may take some time but I'd like to introduce to you the thought of having a highly modded set of what you currently have in your house, for you, to play with at your whim, for as long as you want. Within reason, of course.

If you are interested? I'm dead serious.

The only thing I would ask in return would be your evaluation of them and whether or not you still feel the same way about your comments above. Good or bad, whatever you feel. That's all I ask.

Tom, that is a VERY generous offer...but not necessary. I'm sure the modded 1Cs will be an improvement over my mildly modded speakers. That was not my point. My point was..."I'm not a tweeker". I get to a place where I am satisfied with the gear I have...and I'm good to go for a fairly long time. If it doesn't sound right, I fix it or change it out...but it isn't an ongoing process for me. I've been able to listen to a lot of really good speakers (and other gear) through the years. I am very fortunate right now that IF I want better...I can go get it. But for now I am fine with what I have.

I would love to hear those ICs...but it is really not necessary to bring them to me. You set them up at your place and invite me for a visit. Only 4 hrs or so one way.

Again thanks for the very cool offer.

steveinaz

^ 10-4, what Shack said. My amp is 7yrs old, my CDP 6yrs old, my pre/dac (though a new version) has been the same for 6yrs. Only my speakers have changed recently.

treitz3

No problem, Shack. Just thought I'd ask.

steveinaz

Well, the original question was: "Why would'nt you modify your gear?" correct? I'm stating (for me) that personally, I'd rather find a piece of equipment that does what I want it to do, without modification---and I think that is the point Shack is making as well.

I own a car, that doesn't mean I want to be an ace mechanic.

Stew

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

Just making sure everyone understand crossover modifications is simply taking a higher quality item of the same exact value and dropping it in place of a lesser quality product?

You are not altering anything about the speaker except giving it better parts. You are not changing crossover points or anything.

+1

I have less than $500 in tried and true mods to my SDA 2B-TL's. I would have to spend many times that on a stock speaker to even come close to their sound and they still wouldn't image like SDA's. Besides, it's fun. There's more than one way to get there but I like the bang for the buck I get with modding.

treitz3

shack wrote: »

I would love to hear those 1Cs...but it is really not necessary to bring them to me. You set them up at your place and invite me for a visit. Only 4 hrs or so one way.

I'll do you one even better than that. They will be featured at an audio event here in the next two months very close to you. We are planning on setting them up on an all tubed rig. Best thing about it is that the location is about 7 miles west of Bryson City, NC. This is only about 7 miles east of the Tennessee border. They will be featured for 8 days [September 10th-18th] and you are more than welcome to come and check them out.

That should narrow your drive down to a little above an hour or so. Stop by, get your listen on, have a beer or two on me [meal on the house too] and be sure to bring some of your favorite music. If you can make it, it would be great to see you again. Oh, and some fellow Polkies will be there as well and I'm sure they would love to see you again as well. LMK, bro'.