Why wouldn't you modify your gear?

Jetmaker737

Well, I'm a relative newb at this hobby but I did get some mods done to my TU-717 tuner. I can say without any reservations that the sound on this tuner was very noticeably improved. I love it, the sound from it is fantastic, and since I spent the effort and coin to mod it the piece is my most beloved piece of gear.

DarqueKnight

treitz3 wrote: »

Russ, while you may think and others may think that modifying gear may put whomever into a select or "elitist" group? I do not.

It just puts them into the realm of those that want to venture further into the hobby. Beyond that of which is stock. Nothing more, nothing less. Some get the mods done by someone else, or a business that does it for them. Others do it them self. No big deal, as it's just a yearning to know what gear they may have already may present. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

To answer your question on why [most of the time] it works? Well, I would say that most folks who want to "screw" with the gear they have paid dearly for in the first place have already done research, called folks and talked with folks who have already done what they are planning on doing. Hence, the success rate.

I could be wrong, I could be right. I don't know. What I do know is that with all of the folks I have dealt with when it comes to upgrades? This has been the case.

I typically won't do a modification unless I get some guidance from the manufacturer. I don't want to do anything that works against the design of a piece of gear. I consulted with Sony and Denon before I changed the master clocks and output op amps in their CD players. I consulted with Cary before I changed the power supply fuses in their SACD player. I consulted with Pass Labs before embarking on a capacitor upgrade. I backed off when Mr. Pass informed me that I could do whatever I wanted to do with *my* gear, but Pass offers little to no support for modified products if problems arise. In his typical "straight shooter" fashion, after the warning, Mr. Pass was generous enough to advise about certain capacitor and resistor upgrades that might result in a modest increase in performance. In the case of my SDA's, Polk's engineering department was very forthcoming in providing a list of modifications that would improve the performance of the speakers. Matthew Polk has gone on record regarding the improvements that might be obtained with using lower DCR SDA inductors and Mortite speaker seals.

I didn't need to consult with Polk's engineering department prior to installing Larry's steel driver rings and tweeter brackets because common sense told me that a more secure system of driver coupling was a good thing to have. Plus, I knew that such ring systems are successfully used in other speaker designs.

I had wondered why some people seem to be irked by the activities of modders. It never occurred to me that modification activities would be viewed as "elitist". To me, it is just another way of pursuing this hobby. Some people like to travel around the country attending as many audio shows as they can and they enjoy talking to and being photographed with well known people in the industry. Are they being elitist? In the main, I don't think so. Some people just like being on the bleeding edge of what's going on in an industry. Some people's systems are in a constant state of flux because they change equipment on a weekly basis. Are they being elitist? No, they just want to experience as much gear as they can. Although, they might appear to be "elitist" by those who are unwilling or financially unable to ride on the gear merry-go-round.

Life is short. Do what you want to do to *your* gear.

zingo

I like to modify my gear for a number of reasons; an increase in sound quality being the most obvious. Off the shelf products, as many of our pieces of audio equipment are, are built and designed with everyone who purchases it in mind. Many times I will not like an aspect of the sound or design of my components, and will modify it to increase bass response, clean up the sound, or even change the look. I will also modify components because it's fun and an enjoyable hobby for me.

I agree with Raife that I'm not sure why someone would care if other people and modifying their own equipment to their likes. If I happen to hurt the resale value of my equipment (which hasn't happened yet), that's my business. Although, there are a few people who criticize others because they think cables make a difference. The bottom line with anything in this hobby is follow your own path. If you want to upgrade or change cables, or not, as long as you are happy, that is all that matter. I love when audiophiles make suggestions to other audiophiles to try to help them in their journey, but please also allow them to be happy with their outcome; wherever that may be.

megasat16

To the OP (Tom), I like to mod a gear whenever it makes sense economically and the gear functionality will result in a dramatic improvement. I would not like to go around and perform 10 mods to my 1000 set of speakers which will cost another 1000. After all the mods performed, it may not sound like 2000 worth speakers or it may sound like 10000 worth of speakers with all the mods but it's hard to know unless you have a lot of time and resources to compare and listen to. It all depends on the gear and the brand.

I am against modding when buying a new and better designed gears will trumps that of any costly mod performed to my existing gears. It's just that one of the decisions you alone needs to make and rely on the others experience about the mod you can done to your existing gear.


And Jake, Well Said! I agreed.

zingo wrote: »

I like to modify my gear for a number of reasons; an increase in sound quality being the most obvious. Off the shelf products, as many of our pieces of audio equipment are, are built and designed with everyone who purchases it in mind. Many times I will not like an aspect of the sound or design of my components, and will modify it to increase bass response, clean up the sound, or even change the look. I will also modify components because it's fun and an enjoyable hobby for me.

I agree with Raife that I'm not sure why someone would care if other people and modifying their own equipment to their likes. If I happen to hurt the resale value of my equipment (which hasn't happened yet), that's my business. Although, there are a few people who criticize others because they think cables make a difference. The bottom line with anything in this hobby is follow your own path. If you want to upgrade or change cables, or not, as long as you are happy, that is all that matter. I love when audiophiles make suggestions to other audiophiles to try to help them in their journey, but please also allow them to be happy with their outcome; wherever that may be.

ben62670

reported

quadzilla

For one, there are often a lot of well-documented modes for various kinds of gear out there. My PAS comes immediately to mind, especially as I'm trying to figure out what's already been done to it.

Recapping speakers also comes to mind. Why not put that 2-300 worth of caps in your speakers that are currently about 2.00 worth of components?

As was said before; this is a hobby, it's fun playing with stuff, and sometimes, you hit a home run.

Next up after I get my PAS sorted will be upgrading the xovers in my SDAs.

steveinaz

I sometimes wonder what the "end game" is, or the core thinking behind modifications. Now, if you are an electronics guru--and fully understand the relationship of what you are doing and how it will affect the rest of the component--rock on. But I think for many people, it's a replacement for buying a good solid (albeit more expensive) piece of gear. The latter approach will surely end in alot of tail chasing, because you get what you pay for, 99.9% of the time; and all the wizardry and fairy dust in the world is not going to change that. The funny thing is, often those folks end up sinking more money into a heavily modded piece, than they would have spent buying what they were really after in the first place. Patience is indeed a virtue, and sometimes nowhere near as expensive as the alternative.

Having said that, I won't buy a used piece that has been phutz'd with.

VR3

You are definitely missing out Steve

steveinaz

Re-read my post.

I'm sure there is a great deal of satisfaction, but it's not for everyone.

ohskigod

2 schools of thought that are good for whoever is using it. It depends on the person, gear, budget, overall end needs, etc.

We can't rule out Mods can be a cost effective way to get real improvements, I dont think so many people would do it if it was complete failure.

some will choose to use things as is and not deal wih the heartache.

mods in other arenas have worked well for me, I modded my 07 mustang, and every time I wondered why they didnt do it from the factory. you notice how highly regarded the current mustang is (particularly it's suspension), well apparently Ford figured out what I and numerous other people were thinking and added better shocks and dampers. And notice how it seems like every frikkin mustang has a 3.73 rear gear ratio? I had to upgrade to that because I thought whoever put the 3.31's in my car should have there **** sewn shut.

Of course, also notice that they are a bit pricier than in the past too.

I also modded my own bass guitars. neck swaps, pickups, bridge changes, adding active preamps..........kind of makes the basses mine, certainly affects resell to be sure but eff it, I'm not selling them.

With the LSi9's I have a bookshelf I like that I see no issue with improving. The important thing with modding is to start with something you already like. at least to me.

shack

I am not a tweeker or modifier. I buy what sounds good to me...and run with it. The only gear modification I have is the upgraded tweeters and binding posts in my SDA ICs...and that was done by the previous owner. Now I will upgrade gear...but not modify it.

Also, once you go down the mod path...you have basically destroyed the resale value of that gear. Modified gear rarely has value to anyone other than the owner or someone who just happens to want that mod (the majority of buyers are like Steve).

This is not just true in audio...it holds for most any electronics, autos, boats, bikes etc...just about anything mechanical or otherwise. Original items hold their value better than modified...pretty much across the board.

ohskigod

absolutely true, you only want to modify what you know you will keep (or at least be able to bring it back to stock if you have to sell it) or just not care about the paper hit.

I just like having something no one else has I guess.

I mod my mustang, but I find people that mod, say a Ferrarri, kind of silly.

quadzilla

shack wrote: »

Also, once you go down the mod path...you have basically destroyed the resale value of that gear. Modified gear rarely has value to anyone other than the owner or someone who just happens to want that mod (the majority of buyers are like Steve).

That depends on the gear. I see a fair amount of "modded" gear selling for more than the unmodded versions. Adcom and Carver amps, as well as older tube gear all come immediately to mind.

JimAckley

ohskigod wrote: »

absolutely true, you only want to modify what you know you will keep (or at least be able to bring it back to stock if you have to sell it) or just not care about the paper hit.

I just like having something no one else has I guess.

I mod my mustang, but I find people that mod, say a Ferrarri, kind of silly.

Ever rode in a modded 911 Twin Turbo or Murcielago (sp?)? Try it. Then come back and tell me it's silly.

edit: I definitely am not arguing with you. It's just that I have. It's life changing. I've never gone from 0-100 so fast in my life :biggrin: Everyone should get to experience it once in their life

ohskigod

JimAckley wrote: »

Ever rode in a modded 911 Twin Turbo or Murcielago (sp?)? Try it. Then come back and tell me it's silly.

edit: I definitely am not arguing with you. It's just that I have. It's life changing. I've never gone from 0-100 so fast in my life :biggrin: Everyone should get to experience it once in their life

silly dont always mean bad or wrong :biggrin:...... adding more power to those machines is still silly though.

partying with Charlie Sheen, a suitcase of blow and 10 hookers can be fun, yet many would still argue it being "overkill"..LOL

heiney9

Certain mods on certain gear makes sense, period. No way would my 5B's or SDA's sound anywhere close to the way they do without using better caps and tweeters. The Adcom GDA 600 isn't even on the same planet since better, newer technology op-amps and better more modern caps have been used. None of my mods were in any way trying to redesign or alter the basic function of the component. But, they were to replace possibly worn electrolytic caps and use a few more modern components (like op-amps and film caps).

For the cost of the mods no way could I have bought something new to compete at that price. For SDA's and classic Monitors there is no new equivalent that I am aware of. What about Ricardo and others who own Maggies, the difference in the mods to both the frame and xover are staggering.

For some things it makes sense for others it doesn't. I don't buy into the whole "if you have to mod it, just buy something more expensive to begin with" ideology. I'm also tired of people who choose not to mod ragging on those that do choose to mod. If you don't get it, then just enjoy your stock gear and stop telling us modding is worthless and a waste of time and money.

H9

steveinaz

I'm not ragging on modders at all, I just think it should be reserved for those who really know their stuff. Too often you see people modding for the sake of modding; they have no idea what they are doing, nor do they understand the impacts on the rest of the component. Like I said in my first post, it depends on your motivations for modding, and your level of expertise.

If your modding a $329 preamp with expectations that it will run with it's $1000 big brother---good luck. By the time you get there, you could have bought the $1000 big brother, usually. This is the mindset I am addressing, and as Shack mentioned; be forewarned it WILL affect your price should you ever want to unload the gear. I've seen so-called "modders" do some horrific **** to equipment that was just fine in stock form--anyone ever seen the putty laden internals of the Cambridge D500se pic that floated around the net for awhile? There's not a thing wrong with a box stock D500SE, IMO. If you want better performance, buy an Arcam.

RuSsMaN

I don't think it's a waste, and I'm not upset about anyone doing it. How many modded preamps and amps have I sold here, right here at good ole' Club Polk.

Trey's post just triggered a 'rant' for me, that's all. It wasn't even about Trey, my point is that caps are the flavor of the month. Not for the hardcore mod crowd, but the crowd in general. The stuff that Jesse, Trey, Raife has done is mind boggling, and awesome. Super hardcore.

I just feel like it's becoming one of the default answers to everything - right there with the 'you need at least 250 watts per channel' or what have you. Does that make ANY sense?

Cheers,
Russ

heiney9

Steve, I get that as far as just jumping in and altering things w/o a solid foundation of knowledge. I also wasn't necessarily talking to you about "ragging". There are mods that make perfect sense and/or in the case of Dahlquist or Maggie owners, documented, well thought out mods that really matter.

I am not necessarily mod happy, but there are certain area's I tend to concetrate on, like op-amps, electrolytic to film caps and I usually concentrate on adding my "flavor" of coupling caps. Generally these area's use very generic types of components unless you are into the uber expensive stuff.

Also using different cables both I/C's and power is a form of modding that most do here, including yourself. Why don't you use the I/C's and power cable that shipped with the unit. If it's good enough for the manufacturer to provide why go against what they feel is adequate for the product they designed? That's rhetorical, no need for anyone to answer.

H9

steveinaz

Exactly Russ, I couldn't get it out right.

heiney9

I get it Russ and my response was a bit "over the top" in the opposite direction (a little for effect) but I alos believe even simple cap mods yield a certain level of improvement.

H9

steveinaz

But you are customizing the piece for you, and your expectations/interpretation on what music should sound like.

heiney9

Yes, but so what. What is wrong with that? I don't see what the issue is other than possible devaluation and in all of my cases that has never been an issue because I tend to stick with tried and true methods that are well documented. And even if it is, the little I loose in value is small compared to the pleasure I get from the modification.

H9

heiney9

So when something that has sounded good gets old we just throw it away and buy something new, and that new piece automatically sounds better because it's new and expensive. Rather than moderinize a few key components (caps, op-amps, wiring, speaker terminals, gasket material, cabinet support, vibration damping,etc) that over time may have become weak and/or there are now better alternatives available since it was built 10-15-20 years ago?

See that to me makes no sense. To just abandon something because newer is always better?

H9

heiney9

Maybe I'm missing the point. I haven't followed Trey's upgrades so perhaps we are talking about two different things.

H9

steveinaz

You know what you're doing Brock, I'm speaking to the "casual" modder who just kinda follows the fray because he feels he's suppose to...

An example, the AVS forum in reference to calibrating an HDTV: Look how many "self-proclaimed" calibrators you have on that forum, that operate like a monkey. They "heard" that they need to go in their service menu and change settings x,y, and z for a better picture. What they didn't know, is that every single television is different, unique. But all they do know is that this is going to render a wonderful picture, and they won't have to pay an ISF calibrator $300 bucks.

It's all in the details. If everything were that simple, we wouldn't have professional calibrators out there. They know the specific "gems" of information that make them good at what they do. They also understand that you just can't punch values into a service menu, and have your TV looking like a million bucks--it just doesn't work that way. You have to understand the equipment inside and out to really know what's important, and what isn't.

The hard core modders know what they are doing, problem is, there isn't many of them.

heiney9

Like I said Steve, maybe I'm missing the larger picture as I tend to upgrade or mod the more basic stuff and it's usually on older gear that could benefit a lot more than brand new gear.

I get where you are coming from and that's not the type of modification I tend to do or want to do. So we are on the same page as far as that.

H9

megasat16

Me: Looking at the piggy bank and smiled.

Piggy Bank : :frown: What?

Me: To mod or Not to Mod, that's the question. :biggrin:

Piggy Bank : :eek: Oh No...Not Again.

Me: I won't know if I don't do.

Piggy Bank: know what? and runs for cover.


:biggrin:

FTGV

I confess I'm an incurable tweaker. If I feel I can implement a mod that will squeeze more performance out of a component I'll do so.

VR3

Just making sure everyone understand crossover modifications is simply taking a higher quality item of the same exact value and dropping it in place of a lesser quality product?

You are not altering anything about the speaker except giving it better parts. You are not changing crossover points or anything.