End of SACD? DSD downloads now available in Japan

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,722
    edited December 2010
    vc69 wrote: »
    Yup. And done right it's jitter is much lower. Hard disc based storage/playback is the future.

    Considering that jitter below 150ps is absolutely inaudible (jitter needs to be 250ps or higher before it becomes an issue) and that my SACD/CD players are already below the inaudible mark, this matter has already been done right and is a non-factor. So much for the future.

    As Mike stated, "I like having something tangible in my hands", I OWN my music. I can trade, sell or even give it away at my whim. Can one sell, trade or give away a song or album they have legally downloaded off the internet? I think not.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited December 2010
    reeltrouble1 wrote: »
    of course you didn't mention you can't read.:wink:

    RT1

    I guess the cat's out of the proverbial bag now, thanks man. Now every Polkfest will be just people throwing copies of Catcher in the Rye at me laughing and pointing.

    I'll show them.....oh how I'll show them.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    until it crashes then the headaches begin. While your trying to figure out the problem I'll just get up and swap out the disc

    whether you have cd's or computer files you need to have these two invaluable words: redundant backup
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    I think there will always be pushback to technology. No matter how far things progress, there will always be nostalgia for "a simpler time." History shows this is the human condition. For many, things were better "back when..." or "when I was a kid." And thats eht great thing about our hobby. The geezers can shake their fists at the whippersnappers and their doohickies and harp about the superiority of tubes and vinyl and the vice versa. But in the end we come back to the music and all is right in the world, until we see an ad on CL for something we know would give it that final touch.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited December 2010
    newrival wrote: »
    I think there will always be pushback to technology.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite


    :biggrin:
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,179
    edited December 2010
    newrival wrote: »
    I think there will always be pushback to technology.
    When it comes to this? Hell yes.

    I want to OWN the music I purchase. I don't want to have to pay extra to keep it stored in case my hard drive fails. I would like to pass my music collection down to my son and I want music to be as pure as possible to the real thing.

    Folks keep challenging me to duals with their superior, properly set up, "oh you can't tell the difference the way this is set up" computer music and the actual disc. I have won every dual I have heard. I have been doing this for, it seems like decades.

    Fact is, to my ears I can hear the difference and what I hear I do not like. So, will there be a pushback to this technology from me? You bet.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited December 2010
    All that means is that you haven't heard good all digital setup yet.

    Hard drive space is cheap nowadays, as long as you back everything up on an external, losing your collection shouldn't be a concern. You could even keep another copy off site and you'll still have your collection if your house burns down or is robbed(ahem), something you can't say about a CD collection.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,179
    edited December 2010
    Face wrote: »
    All that means is that you haven't heard good all digital setup yet.
    All due respect, Face but that has been said to me so many years in a row I'm really tired of hearing it. What I want to hear more than hearing that again is the same end result. The last time a dual went down, there was about 12K spent on the setup on a rig that was more than qualified. If they can't get it right with all that knowledge and dough, than why bother when all I have to do is go down to the store and purchase a $14.00 CD/SACD and have what I want in my hands?
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited December 2010
    I probably have an excellent digital based setup with media server and all. But I love to physically picking up the things to put in.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited December 2010
    Face wrote: »
    All that means is that you haven't heard good all digital setup yet.

    Hard drive space is cheap nowadays, as long as you back everything up on an external, losing your collection shouldn't be a concern. You could even keep another copy off site and you'll still have your collection if your house burns down or is robbed(ahem), something you can't say about a CD collection.

    No kidding. It's a full on battle when you wanna talk cables and interconnects yet dismiss new age media as lame, non-compliant or that you can't hold it in your hands? You clearly haven't done enough, if anything and this should be your hobby.

    What was the The Absolute Sound, mid-price bookshelf speaker of the year? The Joseph Audio Pulsar. The JA Pulsar was right across from our Polk room, sorta had a debut at the Capital Area Audiofest and guess what one of the main sources was in the small room?....a computer coupled with the proper components. Do you think it's a fluke? Did they have a CDP present? Of course, since people should and bring their own songs but demo's are demos. Every demo in that room was stellar, regardless of the media and range of music.

    Nope, as it was the source for probably 50-60% of the rooms, including our Polk room for Day2. So, unless you think they suck, everyone who heard it doesn't know what they are talking about, everyone who heard it is stupid and too dumb to comment about music....it must work if done correctly huh? The Jolida mini-DAC's were flying off the shelves @ $100.

    Look, there is a tangible feeling to audio but as far as the media?....going to get worse for you guys. I know the vinyl resurgence as coerced by the audio rags validated some and it's certainly cool that the medium is alive....but it's not alive and well. I hope they keep pressing stuff beyond my existence but the future is digital, period.

    What's going to be hard for folks like us involved with nostalgia, yes...I care, is the simple fact it gets cheaper, easier and smaller. I'm a big vintage electronics fan, try to explain what I do as a hobby....and I might as well have two heads. Screw you and I get the screw you in regards to me embracing digital media.

    As far as selling hardcopies? I've burned all my CD's to drives and ditched the media to Goodwill, the real people that appreciate tangible efforts.

    I'm sure the old school will continue and it SHOULD do so. No one is saying old school sucks, well I'm sure someone is but new media in a high res format is going to continue to excel.

    The funniest comment I heard at CAA was from someone commenting on a couple tracks I played from the ALBUM Candy-O, burned from someone very cool from here...of which I can't remember(SORRY!!) and played thru my computer. "Where's the record player?"
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,722
    edited December 2010
    What was the The Absolute Sound, mid-price bookshelf speaker of the year? The Joseph Audio Pulsar. JA sorta had a debut at the Capital Area Audiofest and guess what the main source was in the small room?....a computer. Do you think it's a fluke? Did they have a CDP present? Of course, since people should and bring their own songs but demo's are demos.

    They sounded better thru the CDP.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited December 2010
    We watched some DB demos while we were there for 3 days, you didn't lose since you weren't there but it was interesting to see the reaction.

    Not everyone agreed, just like you said....but enough did that it made it a viable option. Everyone hears in a different way. That's why this hobby sucks.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    dorokusai wrote: »
    Everyone hears in a different way. That's why this hobby sucks.

    I think thats what makes it interesting. It's pretty entertaining watching people argue about technologies and what sounds better. It's like people arguing about what is the best color. Neither will convince the other to believe as they do, certainly not with words.

    There is no accounting for taste. It doesn't follow any logic, or graph, or data points. on paper there is no arguing that modern sound reproduction is far superior, but does that make it better? obviously not to some.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    dorokusai wrote: »
    As far as selling hardcopies? I've burned all my CD's to drives and ditched the media to Goodwill, the real people that appreciate tangible efforts.

    Way impressive. I'm going to follow suit this winter. I never even thought of doing this. My CD's just collect dust.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited December 2010
    newrival wrote: »
    I think thats what makes it interesting. It's pretty entertaining watching people argue about technologies and what sounds better. It's like people arguing about what is the best color. Neither will convince the other to believe as they do, certainly not with words.

    There is no accounting for taste. It doesn't follow any logic, or graph, or data points. on paper there is no arguing that modern sound reproduction is far superior, but does that make it better? obviously not to some.

    Great comment Newrival. I'm old school audio but I don't believe in vinyl, which results in me being a heretic or traitor depending on the individual. The heretic comment is from a few of my best friends, traitor is from losers. My Polkie friends and I giggle offline about it all but they still suck damnit.

    My point is, if I even have one, is that I value the opinions of the people I really know, regardless of the media involved, even if it is vinyl based :smile: It's about what they actually hear, notice and interpret from what they have heard, regardless of the bit rate, rpm or whatever. They may hear something that I didn't notice and I can try and locate that in another or like medium. Perhaps, listen to something AGAIN and AGAIN. This is a lost art in and of itself. Re-listen.

    That's audio dude and not getting TOO serious about it that you get angry. Which happens all the time here on Club Polk.

    My musical journey and growth was turned on by all kinds of friends on media from 8track to hi-end DSD pirates. It's all music. I pick on vinyl because I can, not because I honestly think its sucks. I've heard some of the best vinyl from TroyD, on par with vinyl I've heard from any CES....but he's still a dick for setting the bar for something that scares me to death.

    I believe in classic recordings and authentic sounds, that doesn't mean it HAS to come from the original media. Eventually, these vinyl heads will end up on the short end of the stick but for now they rule the roost.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited December 2010
    The fact plain and simple is that media servers, either hardcore pc based, or ipod, are the way of the future, period. It will become the norm. No, records, cds, even sacd are not going anywhere, anytime soon, if ever. Hell, reel to reel tape might make a comeback, but digital audio is here to stay.

    The second thing is humans, by nature, resist change. The change is here, embrace it or not. Love it or hate it. Regardless, it is the future of audio, and not just mainstream.

    Hell Mark, remember rolling into the Kimber room at the Venetian a few years back, and who had the Sound Labs bigger than a compact car, dj'ing from his laptop? Ray Kimber himself, and it sounded AWESOME. That was what, 2005?

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited December 2010
    RuSsMaN wrote: »
    The fact plain and simple is that media servers, either hardcore pc based, or ipod, are the way of the future, period. It will become the norm. No, records, cds, even sacd are not going anywhere, anytme soon, if ever. Hell, reel to reel tape might make a comeback, but digital audio is here to stay.

    The second thing is humans, by nature, resist change. The change is here, embrace it or not. Love it or hate it. Regardless, it is the future of audio, and not just mainstream.

    Hell Mark, remember rolling into the Kimber room at the Venetian a few years back, and who had the Sound Labs bigger than a compact car, dj'ing from his laptop? Ray Kimber himself, and it sounded AWESOME. That was what, 2005?

    Cheers,
    Russ

    Ray Kimber was 100% digital, or close .....LOL, I remember that. I believe he was running his computer thru his custom cables, thru a DAC...simple. There's a pic of you beside that speaker....well, one of them.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited December 2010
    Yeah, through a DAC to some Pass Labs monoblocks (iirc) that were as big as small block Chevy crate motors? I remember. ;)
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited December 2010
    There is some more data from that photo shoot on here somwhere. The rest is also available from the 2005 archives....in case memory is bad. I remember Ray choosing songs off his computer. He's also known as a trend bucking guy at these events.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited December 2010
    2005, trend bucking renegade. 2010, renaissance man.
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,842
    edited December 2010
    You know, probably 50% (or more) of all the music played at Polkfest at Lou's was played from MP3 players, iPods and computers.
    Expert Moron Extraordinaire

    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,722
    edited December 2010
    Jstas wrote: »
    You know, probably 50% (or more) of all the music played at Polkfest at Lou's was played from MP3 players, iPods and computers.

    Yeah, I could tell.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,201
    edited December 2010
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    until it crashes then the headaches begin. While your trying to figure out the problem I'll just get up and swap out the disc

    Back up brother back up , Raid style or just a plain 2nd hard drive.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited December 2010
    Keiko wrote: »
    Awww shux! :redface:

    The record player's still here with me and I'm breakin' in a new cartridge as I type this. Long live analog!

    Rock n Roll :biggrin:

    Thanks for those CD's Keiko, I passed them on to my vinyl loving step-dad and he's also digging them.

    F1Nut - Please. You only left because it was either too loud, which drove most of us out of the room or when you asked what was playing, it was mentioned that it wasn't a CD. You didn't give anything time enough to judge anything. I can't wait to AB you at Polkfest 2012 in front of your peers old man....better bring your game face.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • ESavinon
    ESavinon Posts: 3,066
    edited December 2010
    mantis wrote: »
    Man screw the Disc's , they get dirty and you have to store them. Wouldn't you like the idea of a media server for you to put all your Hi Rez music on and have a interface to pick and choose any song/Album or create a custom playlist to sit back with a cold one and enjoy your music the way you want to?

    I find this Intriguing ever since I started using a media server then changing Discs. I still do as I have a small library of SACD and DVD AUDIO discs I enjoy listening to but I would love to have them all in a Media server with all the rest of my music.

    As long as the quality is equal to I'm all in.

    You cab rip your dvd-a into your server.
    SRT For Life; SDA Forever!

    The SRT SEISMIC System:
    Four main satellite speakers, six powered subs, two dedicated for LFE channel, two center speakers for over/under screen placement and three Control Centers. Amaze your friends, terrorize your neighbors, seize the audio bragging rights for your state. Go ahead, buy it; you only go around once.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited December 2010
    Keiko wrote: »
    np.... I hope you gave them to him on the condition you could have them back when your HD crashes. :eek: :biggrin: :wink:

    I'm never worried about that condition.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited December 2010
    If I lost all my music due to some weird cataclysm and all my back ups were eaten by feral animals that I never allowed in my house, I still wouldn't really care. Sure, that sucks but the music is in my head 24/7 and I just hum it when I feel like it. There are much bigger things to worry about.....like why I can't get that awful Pink, Raise your Glass, song outta my head. There's only one solution for that.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • DMara
    DMara Posts: 1,434
    edited December 2010
    Oops, posted in wrong topic :D
    Gears shared to both living room & bedroom:
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    Living room:
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited December 2010
    It's probably true that server-based source material will "replace" tangible-source material, but only in the way CD's "replaced" LP's. And it seems to me LP's are still holding market share since they almost became extinct a short time ago. I still love the cover art, liner notes and experience of handling LP's (and CD's).

    I guess I personally am a diehard because when I listen to a CD (or even a CD ripped to a hard drive) I let the tracks play through in the exact original order they were laid down on the album without ever skipping ahead :biggrin:

    As more people move to server-based and dump their CD's and LP's, my collection will grow bigger and bigger as I scoop up the bargains. If EMP ever hits I'll be in good shape.
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
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  • Polkitup2
    Polkitup2 Posts: 1,623
    edited December 2010
    I've had just as much, if not more fun setting up my digital music system as I did my analog. I thought I would miss the experience of physically handling CD's - wrong. Now I see my entire collection and all the individual tracks on my big screen. As far as sound quality, it beats any CD player I have owned. SACD? I think the 192/24 Hz gives it a run for its money, jury still out here as I haven't done a real head to head comparison yet.

    The one problem I have with digital is that I am still reluctant to shell out money for a digital recording. I wish they would package it somehow, like put it on a flash drive or even a CD :eek:

    I see HDtracks now has Steely Dan Gaucho on hi-res. This might be my first digital purchase as I would like to compare it to my SACD copy.
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