Behold the future of high end audio retail

cokewithvanilla

Amherst wrote: »

Concentrate here Coke.

Someone who knows history and how we got here. Why have most people forgotten or choose to ignore while traveling on a backward spiral?

Sure, that's how we got here, but that doesn't mean progress halts. Before being industrial we were agricultural... I fail to see why change has to stop at industrial. (((i could be wrong))) I think it's more important to note that we got here by being first in many things. Perhaps we will be first in a new "revolution", as they call it.

sucks2beme wrote: »

But our ratio is all wrong. We import more than we export. And that ratio
gets worse all the time. We are outsourcing services such as IS support,
call centers, and billing paperwork centers at a record pace. Call your
local FBI office. The call is answered by somebody in India!
One of our larger exports is old steel. The last time this happened
was in the 1930's. Japan used it to build their war effort. Wanna know
who's buying it this time?


As my dad used to say, not all progress is good.

True, we are the largest exporter as well as importer. Perhaps we will find something that we are good at and start exporting more... perhaps not.

Agreed, not everything that people call "progress" is good.

kevhed72

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

In volume, right?

I think we export other stuff in higher value.

Yes, in terms of volume. But still.....not good.

cstmar01

sucks2beme wrote: »

But our ratio is all wrong. We import more than we export. And that ratio
gets worse all the time. We are outsourcing services such as IS support,
call centers, and billing paperwork centers at a record pace. Call your
local FBI office. The call is answered by somebody in India!
One of our larger exports is old steel. The last time this happened
was in the 1930's. Japan used it to build their war effort. Wanna know
who's buying it this time?


But back on subject. I am really going to miss the current dealer network.
I have several places where I can go listen to many high end products.
They also get in fine trade ins. I know they are all going to be in trouble.
There's not enough people willing to pay more to be able to see and touch stuff.
As my dad used to say, not all progress is good. Soon Chinese guys will
make it all, sell it on websites, and the only local involvement will be the
delivery guy. And everyone will blog how great their gear is, since nobody
will get the chance to ever compare products head to head. Cheap will be good.
Good will be whatever is hyped the most. Over at head-fi, the term
for the latest stuff is FOTM(flavor of the month). By the time the hype dies
down and all the reviews are in, thousands have bought some POS that
doesn't sound good, and the flea market fills up with the stuff. And it repeats
over and over.

Thank you.

cokewithvanilla

sucks2beme wrote: »

But back on subject. I am really going to miss the current dealer network.
I have several places where I can go listen to many high end products.
They also get in fine trade ins. I know they are all going to be in trouble.
There's not enough people willing to pay more to be able to see and touch stuff.
As my dad used to say, not all progress is good. Soon Chinese guys will
make it all, sell it on websites, and the only local involvement will be the
delivery guy. And everyone will blog how great their gear is, since nobody
will get the chance to ever compare products head to head. Cheap will be good.
Good will be whatever is hyped the most. Over at head-fi, the term
for the latest stuff is FOTM(flavor of the month). By the time the hype dies
down and all the reviews are in, thousands have bought some POS that
doesn't sound good, and the flea market fills up with the stuff. And it repeats
over and over.

Maybe the future holds something that isn't internet and isn't retail, who's to say?

Maybe it will be a combination, where it's not so much a shop, but a small place owned by the manufacturer to demonstrate the product, where nothing is actually sold. You can then order it online after testing. Maybe it won't even have a salesman, just a touchscreen to guide you through your listening... and some cameras, bolts and chains to guide you through your not stealing

Who knows. Maybe companies will ship free to your home and send someone there to install it free of charge and let you try it for 3 years before you make your down payment. If you don't like it, they will then come and uninstall it and pick it up, free of charge, of course

swb502

Coke:

read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Economics-One-Lesson-Shortest-Understand/dp/0517548232/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1282066568&sr=1-3

It was written at the end of WW2 while old it still holds the basics of understanding national economics. Its exceedingly easy to read and should take you all of 3 hours to finish. Most Public libraries will have a copy. It was considered minimum reading for a long time, in college but the ‘new age’ economics of the 90s apparently nearly whipped it out. The recession pulled it out of the gutter.
He speaks about fair trade, in that dollars must be trader for dollars and there should be a neat gain. That book doesn’t get into the creation of capital, which one really needs to understand to get the jist of what we’re talking about.
Super basic explanation, capital is only produced by a) value adding process. This includes turning seeds into wheat, wheat into bread, or ore in to metal, metal into wire, wire into a motor, manufacturing or b) movement of goods By taking something available one place and taking it to a place its not available you have increased the value. That’s were agriculture normally falls. Like your banana issue.
Now the flow of capital is a zero growth transaction when related to services rather then capital investment. (Capital investments being anything that produces capital, so machines to produce things) Money changing hands should be a zero sum game. IE, I had 10 dollars, I pay you 10 dollars to mow my lawn, and then you pay someone 10 it fix your sink, and then he pays me 10 to paint his house. We all had 10 dollars, we all did work, but nothing new was made or created. However we were in fact all busy. This system means that everyone should always have ‘work’ but the totally wealth of the country doesn’t change.
This is what Western European Countries have opted for. Service work, low inflation and high unemployment. But since most of the European countries have created trade tariffs this keeps out too much import good destroying the system as quickly. Also the size of their relative economies makes this less important.
Also your assertion of China for any X country is wrong. The national decisions of China has allowed it to keep those 10%+ growth figures, but funding American debt to buy Chinese goods. If it were any X country it wouldn’t matter as much either, since again it would be defused across many places.

Anyways, read that book, and then I’ll find some further reading for you to explain capital.

apphd

BlueFox wrote: »

Sorry. Just because one has visited China does not make one an expert. Trying to equate modern China to the U.S. of 100-200 years ago is a red herring. When China starts playing on a level field with the rest of the world then we can start making comparisons.

I work everyday, and have been for 20 years, with Chinese engineers who are glad to be out of there. Of course, I also wonder which ones are spies for the Chinese government, or all just stealing IP for their friends back home. But that is a different issue.

Sorry try reading my post again. Not claiming to be an expert or even close, and as I said to start my comments,
" Not commenting on the politics involved that have fostered this "
I too work everyday, except for Sunday and most Saturdays, and have been for 33 years. Not like in China where the normal work week for many is 6 days. May I ask what you base your knowledge on this? What you have read or seen on the news? I'm sure the engineers you work with are glad to be out of there, would you want to be in 1910 America?;)

cokewithvanilla

Ah, my only post that I was joking.

Don't worry, I won't miss your audience

munk

In the late 60's and early 70's there were high end audio stores all over Los Angeles Ca, and in every major city. Those are nearly gone, and have been for decades.

Under a free market, if China or Taiwan can make it cheaper, then that's where it will be made. If manufacturers cannot control their product and there is a gray market, that becomes part of the sales dynamic. In pure capitalism, even monopolies are expected and accepted. That shocks many people.

I won't say all of these things are good, just that they are better than other systems of distribution and incentive. I'd wager many of you live in large urban areas and have grown up under Walmarts. They crushed many mom and pop stores.

Most people buy used components; how does that fit in with supporting worthy companies who make decent products that last? Should they make amps that last twenty years?

The old rule that summed up capitalism was, 'buyer beware'.

It is infuriating that a music CD that costs a buck to make sells for 16. That's a monopoly- an informal one. Someday I hope someone breaks it open, but note what happened to many free download internet sites. It was infuriating the music CD was so badly designed, with such poor sampling. It's infuriating that my son spends hundreds on an Ipod which depends upon software programs not known for high fidelity.

But as long as there are Polk folks, and all the other music lovers and equipment hounds, then someone will find a way to make and deliver a product to us. I hope. The born into CD generation does not appear to know what was lost when the LP fell.

If the mark up on electronics is so great, why do so many worthy companies go bankrupt?
I've seen an awful lot of snob stereo salesman, but not many rich ones.

My personal decision is to support worthy products when I can. There is a future for electronics on the net- just like the net is changing every other business too. I thought the emotiva model pretty smart. One day, the net may leave those Walmart stores looking for new leases.

cokewithvanilla

munk wrote: »

Under a free market, if China or Taiwan can make it cheaper, then that's where it will be made. If manufacturers cannot control their product and there is a gray market, that becomes part of the sales dynamic. In pure capitalism, even monopolies are expected and accepted. That shocks many people.

Exactly.

We can talk about how it should be all day long, but the majority of consumers have spoken with their wallets and many high end audio stores have gone out of business because of it.

snow

Its interesting now that people have pointed out whats wrong with cokehead's way of thinking that he doesnt have any rebuttals but only attempts to change the subject.

I said this in the hopes that you may start to actually think

(To see into the future all you need to do is look into the past)


swb502 brings up what I was hoping you might see if only you could get past the its all about me, I want it now and cheaper selfish way of thinking, here are a few things that he said that correlates to what I said in the statement above.

The question of why America should manufacture things show a horrid ignorance of the world

If we dont start producing things our economy will utimately fail.

Also bear in mind while the US is importing disposable crap the Chinese are importing capital goods. Machines, Presses, injection molders etc. It’s a transfer of wealth.

Once you take away the ability to produce things and give the technology away you are digging your own economic grave.

Also one of the biggest factors you seem to ignore in that is, rising cultures understand there not doing well but as a society there willing to take it on the chin for a generation or two to get there

Japan is a perfect example of this, anyone rememember the transistor radio? thats where it all began, the Japanese goverment was willing to loan billions of dollars so that the companies making them could actually sell at a loss to gain market share. The rest is history. And thats why I said (To see into the future all you need to do is look into the past)

If we continue to give away all our ability to produce things in the name of hey its cheaper to buy someone elses products so to save money I will, irregardless of the fact that to save a few dollars in the short term we all are losing in the long term.

staring at a wonderful 10% unemployment for 2 years is pointing out the lack of social character the US has. Again you don’t see American Made cars in Japan ever, soon you will not see them in China or India because as a people they understand they need to buy domestically to raise there quality of life. Americans don’t,

Get my point now about buying american and why its important?

A couple of classic remarks from you.

And about american workers... if a lazy **** american worker builds a POS car for $20,000, and a hard working chinese guy builds a better car for $15,000, which one should I buy? Don't I have the right as a consumer to purchase the better quality vehicle?

I'm sick of all this American BS... if america wants business, america needs to make better products. I refuse to buy a piece of crap just because crack smoking john american built it.

Why do you assume that americans are lazy crack smokers? And why do you assume americans build crappy stuff?

America actually does benefit from buying Tv's from china

Now that is just plain stupid :rolleyes:

sucks2beme summed it up pretty well here why its important to buy american and why we need to start manufacturing products in america rather than buy from over seas if we have any hope of ever recovering.

If you don't make things
you become poor. End of story. Wealth comes from selling raw materials,
agricultural products, and manufacturing. That last one is where the real
wealth comes from.

But our ratio is all wrong. We import more than we export. And that ratio
gets worse all the time. We are outsourcing services such as IS support,
call centers, and billing paperwork centers at a record pace. Call your
local FBI office. The call is answered by somebody in India!

Do you get it now?


Now on to your lack of Character. By posting the drivel and lies you did in your useless poll shows that. Never once did I say you or anyone else had to buy american, I said if you want the future of your children to be bright you might want to think about doing so.

Here are a couple of your twisted comments so that everyone can see what an idiot you really are.

I asked because Snow over there thinks it is more American to "buy american" than it is to have the choice to buy whatever you wish.

It's a simple question that 90% of americans should answer "yes" to. But when I told snow that people appreciate their freedom in america more than they appreciate being told to "buy american" (because that is snows solution to the poor economy) he thought I was crazy.

Not crazy just selfish thinking only of your needs and not the future of america.

The problem is, as I saw it, snow thought that everyone should be made to buy american... and lose their freedom of choice... and I told him that was unamerican (and he thought I was a fool for saying it)

I still believe your a fool.

REGARDS SNOW

swb502

Coke is young, hasn’t gone to school yet, hasn’t been in the ‘real world’ yet. He’ll likely learn these lessons, or like a great deal of America contribute to a problem that will correct itself. Markets always correct, its just a matter of time and understanding. Mind you it took 70 years for the USSR to correct and Russia is still trying hard to survive a correction of that magnitude.

A little reading and a little life experience will fix him up yet. Its not different then when I showed up here and thought all Tubes were good for was surviving an EMP.

cokewithvanilla

yes, I've gone to school. No they don't teach the same thing they taught 50 years ago (ie, ignore the world economy). Yes, snow, we can benefit from a world economy (or buying stuff from other countries). I am not gonna bother explaining how, because you purposely misunderstand everything i say.

Try to grow your banana's domestically, try to dig up your diamonds here in the u.s., try to make stuff here that is too expensive for most people to afford... say "we need more tariffs"... whatever, if it makes you happy.

We need to do what we do BETTER than other countries, not what we do worse. That will never help us. If you don't agree with me, fine. Talk to an economist. Ask him why we can't cut off the entire world and go 100% domestic.

I am not saying to import everything, I never said that. But importing has it's purpose, and benefits. If you don't believe it... well, I can't help you.

I'm done here.

nedh84

I assume swb502 and snow have never purchased anything from a Walmart before? Otherwise you are just being hypocritical. How many mom and pop shops has Walmart and the like put under? Where do you buy your eggs? Albertsons? Stater Brothers? Vons? Or the local grower down the street. Your avocados typically come from Chile by the way. Who knows where your tomatoes come from.

At the end of the day the USA has to put out a better product at a fair price to compete. In todays world market the world consumer is looking at two factors: quality and cost. Without those incentives no one will purchase anything.

I'm all about buying products made in the USA but face it. Most products that we buy aren't made in the USA. Its a world market out there... we don't live in Cuba.

snow

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

I'm done here.

I thought so, now that you know your wrong and was proven so by everyone involved in this thread. Sad that you cant admit it though, of course that leads back to the lack of character and selfish way of thinking your parents would be proud.

REGARDS SNOW

snow

nedh84 wrote: »

I assume swb502 and snow have never purchased anything from a Walmart before? Otherwise you are just being hypocritical. How many mom and pop shops has Walmart and the like put under? Where do you buy your eggs? Albertsons? Stater Brothers? Vons? Or the local grower down the street. Your avocados typically come from Chile by the way. Who knows where your tomatoes come from.

At the end of the day the USA has to put out a better product at a fair price to compete. In todays world market the world consumer is looking at two factors: quality and cost. Without those incentives no one will purchase anything.

I'm all about buying products made in the USA but face it. Most products that we buy aren't made in the USA. Its a world market out there... we don't live in Cuba.

Are you and cokehead butt buddies? just curious?

REGARDS SNOW

TECHNOKID

Good grief, you guys are back at it... you must be exausted of trying to prove to each others that you are right I guess this thread could qualify for Doro's threads of shame list :cool:

cokewithvanilla

snow wrote: »

I thought so, now that you know your wrong and was proven so by everyone involved in this thread. Sad that you cant admit it though, of course that leads back to the lack of character and selfish way of thinking your parents would be proud.

REGARDS SNOW

Lol. You somehow think that snide remarks constitute an argument. I didn't say I am wrong, I said I am sick of repeating myself over and over only for you to say stupid things like, "why do you think americans can't produce good stuff?" which I never even said in the first place.

Surely you will bring up the 15k and 20k quote, which says IF not "this is the case". But, you lack the mental capacity to understand the difference, so, I am done with you, as it were.

Please, sit in on a world economics lecture. I am no economist, smarter people than I have found that trading is a good idea... if you choose to believe not.. thats great, i really don't have the time to care.

munk

If protectionism, tariffs, unions and State run manufacturing worked, the Soviet Union would still be here. The arms race did not kill the USSR, as many republicans like to believe, but the lack of capitalism did. The arms race was only the face of the Boot. The failure inherent in controling the means of production, the lack of self motivation, the absence of capitalism- killed the USSR. The same thing will happen to us if we attempt to correct intrinsic problems with our economy by State controls.

That said, historically, every nation that loses its manufacturing base seems to decline and fall.

We are attempting right now to fix our own problems by the government supporting auto industries and banks with tax monies. It won't work. Two of the auto giants failed because they could not pay Union scale and retirement benefits to the workers. The government taking the reins of a bankrupt model will only fail worse- and add to our national debt.

I don't really know anyone here, and I certainly wouldn't have said anything about 'lazy american workers', but Coke has made relevant points throughout regardless of his more colored statements. This is a dialogue, right? A discussion amongst peers with some regard? No one is a fool. These aren't simple problems.

The honest to God truth of the whole rotten mess is there are no 'answers' to many of these problems; there is only one generation surviving them long enough to pass the questions off to the next generation.

America is hurting right now, but wait until the emerging middle classes in India, China and Thailand own enough toaster ovens; they'll lose the cheap labor they enjoy now.

In the meantime, I'll pursue any legitimate american product I can, even knowing many parts are made overseas. You can rarely build anymore with all American stuff. There are some exceptions.

What's the name of that american bicycle component maker? Sram? They are kicking the Shimano butt right now. Shimano simply charges too much, makes 'advancements' that are unneccesary frequently, and lack interchangability.

snow

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

Lol. You somehow think that snide remarks constitute an argument. I didn't say I am wrong, I said I am sick of repeating myself over and over only for you to say stupid things like, "why do you think americans can't produce good stuff?" which I never even said in the first place.

Surely you will bring up the 15k and 20k quote, which says IF not "this is the case". But, you lack the mental capacity to understand the difference, so, I am done with you, as it were.

Please, sit in on a world economics lecture. I am no economist, smarter people than I have found that trading is a good idea... if you choose to believe not.. thats great, i really don't have the time to care.

I would hope you would tire of the same Banana etc posts yes. I lack the mental capacity to understand huh? and yet you accuse me of snide remarks? What you said in the poll were lies I never said the things you said I did you only twisted them to make me look like an **** which shows your true self.

And yes if I were to meet you in person I would say exactly what I am saying here and perhaps a lil sumthin extra



REGARDS SNOW

cokewithvanilla

snow wrote: »

I would hope you would tire of the same Banana etc posts yes. I lack the mental capacity to understand huh? and yet you accuse me of snide remarks? What you said in the poll were lies I never said the things you said I did you only twisted them to make me look like an **** which shows your true self.

And yes if I were to meet you in person I would say exactly what I am saying here and perhaps a lil sumthin extra



REGARDS SNOW

The only reason I would continue to post the same thing is that you continue to not understand. I figure, perhaps that if I word them differently each time, one of them will sink in.

I mention the banana thing because it would be so incredibly stupid to try to do that it is hard to argue against... alas, you conveniently ignore it.

rubin

I have had my fair share of misdealings with audio B&M retailers.The Internet is a great tool for finding information and recreational enjoyment.It's an easy and efficient way of doing product and pricing comparisons.I am using it now to purchase audio products, eliminating the middle man. This is unfortunate for honest retailers but I have no sympathy for the dishonest ones.

snow

This message is hidden because cokewithvanilla is on your ignore list.

cokewithvanilla

snow wrote: »

This message is hidden because cokewithvanilla is on your ignore list.

oh wait snow, why remove the quote... you're refusal to answer speaks volumes

Thanks.

swb502

ned:

O no, I most certainly have. Half the **** in my home is from China, in fact I worked on importing goods to sell to people. Do you know why? National policy dictates I do so or simple go bust. I’m just well aware of the damage it causes and understand its not something I can adjust on my own. It has to be adjusted at the Federal level. Because if I stop someone will fill my spot, in the nation as to stop then its ok.

Again I would encourage everyone to stay away from agriculturally based example because they are primarily dictated by place and nothing more. A guy in Alaska cannot grow sugarcane, a guy in Hawaii can’t choose to pump up oil.

Munk:

I whole hearty agree that capitalism is works the best, but as a country we have chosen a socialism-capitalism hybrid that can’t compete with a centrally controlled capitalistic market like china. We simple cannot set wages so low to get there. Again the two years now of 10% unemployment, with no minimum wage law, the wages would decrease until hiring people was. Most people in the US would agree making someone work for 2 dollars and hour so they can just barley afford food is unacceptable. As soon as that determination is made, a degree for protectionism is required to avoid a transfer of wealth. Like what we have now to China.

Your correct that lack of capitalist markets is ultimately what doomed USSR form day one. However, the USSR was more then capable of lasting if it had, an internal capitalistic market. In the late 80s China was starving to death due to his government run fars, the solution was the semi-privatize the farms. A few years latter there was a food surplus. What the US did was invent Trust Busting to make sure we had internal competition. This of course has been to mixed results. Even the USSR if you look at the works of Sukhoi vs Mikoyan. They still produce good aircraft because even under Stalin of the USSR there was competition between the two for the soviet defense money.
Also in your analysis of the soviet union be careful, because unions are not part of the USSR. There one of the things that brought it down.

snow

This message is hidden because cokewithvanilla is on your ignore list.

cokewithvanilla

swb502 wrote: »

Again I would encourage everyone to stay away from agriculturally based example because they are primarily dictated by place and nothing more. A guy in Alaska cannot grow sugarcane, a guy in Hawaii can’t choose to pump up oil.

The reasons examples like that are used is that they plainly illustrate a competitive advantage. Obviously you wouldn't try to produce sugarcane in Alaska, because even if you used greenhouses, etc, it wouldn't pay off.

Just as you wouldn't try to make textiles in the united states because china has a competitive advantage in labor (call it based on policy, call it what you like, but it is still a competitive advantage by definition)

I've just been trying to illustrate that simple concept. Once you believe that the theory of competitive advantage exists, it makes it simple to see that we can benefit from imports.

It's the same reason I don't make my own clothes, shoes, car, home, ect. Because I would take more time (which is money) in making a crappy pair of shoes than a shoe maker.

nedh84

This is just a satirical comment meant for some fun.

In a world of politics

Cokism = "It's all about the deals man"

Snowism = "It's all about America"

Rev. Hayes

snow wrote: »

This message is hidden because cokewithvanilla is on your ignore list

This is just wierd..........


I thought both of you made your point......


Why are you posting that you are not reading what is being said?

Once, I get it. Over and over?

cokewithvanilla

nedh84 wrote: »

This is just a satirical comment meant for some fun.

In a world of politics

Cokism = "It's all about the deals man"

Snowism = "It's all about America"

Hah. Well, considering I'm a not quite out of college yet, and snow is probably in his 70's, (:D) I guess it is to be expected.

Maybe when I am older and have more disposable income, I will try to seek out that elusive 100% american TV, or maybe I will go through the entire grocery store reading all the "made in" labels before I buy things. I might even shop at the mom and pop stores that generally have expired products cause they move so little inventory... who knows No one ever expects that they will act like old people when they grow up, but they all do. Hell, I can see it happening to my parents.

Rev. Hayes wrote: »

This is just wierd..........

I thought both of you made your point......
Why are you posting that you are not reading what is being said?
Once, I get it. Over and over?

Because snow really thinks that I, and presumably everyone else, care if I (we) have his audience.

cokewithvanilla

snow wrote: »

It is just to irratate him, its working too!!

There you have it. Presumably, he can't even see what I am saying, yet he thinks he is bothering me. Snow seems pathetic enough that he might have not even blocked me, but just says that he did. That's pretty weird for an old man

edit: I take that back, he must be retired... in which case I can't really blame him for having nothing better to do.