Will polk ever bring out high end speakers

hearingimpared

lightman1 wrote: »

SDA is a gimmic. Nothing more and nothing less

lightman1 wrote: »

Shut up, Karen

Shed ep Russ!:p

hearingimpared

how can audiophiles take a product seriously if the owners has to modify it in order to get the full quality that the product is capable of

F1nut wrote: »

Really? There are not many products in the audio world that couldn't benefit from a little upgrading/tweaking.

There isn't one piece of gear that I own, and some of it is very high end, that I haven't tweeked for maximum performance.

If one is satisfied with the purchase of a piece of gear as is no matter what category it falls under, great! I have found over the years that I can squeeze more performance out of any piece of gear with some tweeking including a rack. As far as I'm concerned tweeking is all part of this hobby plus it keeps you happy with what you have so you don't have to keep upgrading to get the sound that you desire.

Why do you think there are so many modding companies out there that upgrade already good sounding pieces of gear? They can do better at a cheaper price than if the manufacturer used the same upgraded components which would drive the price of their product out of reach of their target customer base.

I don't think that Polk offering upgrade kits for any speaker is cost effective for their business. How do they figure out what components to use in an xover kit that will fit everyone's taste? They already do that with their stock product.

I prefer Sonicaps and Mills resistors others prefer many of the plethora of caps and resistors available. I don't think Polk could cover the entire spectum with upgrade kits and make it cost effective.

Like Chuck says, "Everything Matters!" That being said how can a company provide everything that every audiophile wants. No, rather, they set themselves to have a target customer base and let the rest have the option of making their offering better.

I remember when companies used locktight on everything because, 1) they didn't want anyone to mess with the gear and 2) a broken locktight connection would void the warranty. Things have changed since then especially by the higher end manufacturers.

Amherst

Joe you have great points here. But if Polk was willing/able to possibly assign an engineer to crossovers built with custom components to tweek a box, I think it would take off. The stock board or one slightly larger to handle bigger caps would be a plus.

The buying power of components in bulk would probably also help costs. Just a thought.

Toolfan66

The idea of polk offering an upgraded XO to the consumer is not a good idea at all for the company, a dumb idea at that. Why should Polk offer you that, and trust those of you that are afraid to tackle the DIY to install it correctly, and offer you a warranty on the XO or not void the warranty you have on your speakers. If your that affraid to pull the XO out yourself then you have no buisness even turning one of the screws out.:rolleyes:

There are a few people here, and Polk's CS that are willing to help you get the best out of you speakers. There is no need for polk to offer upgraded OX's it would not be a good buisness move. and really how many of the average consumer of any speakers even know what the hell an XO is..:rolleyes:

Toolfan66

TECHNOKID wrote: »

We have to realize that many (even most) people don't have the ability nor willingness to do tweeking. Cheers!
TK

Then many and even most need to keep their speakers as is, and enjoy what they have..


Larry.

RuSsMaN

Can I buy a 99 cent cheese burger and throw a nice slice of organic tomato on it? Sure, you can tweak just about anything.

Good lord, does anybody actually LISTEN to their gear anymore, or just keep it jacking with it? Actually, I'd like to 'tweak' a few of you guys.

Oh, and as far as waving the Polk 'new sda - new high end' blah blah blah, ragged old flag..... How many of you would actually buy said speaker - 1%? Less? If a new SDA came out, it will only devalue and date your vintage models even further. If I were you guys, I'd be campaigning for better (and continued) legacy product support. I know how most of you listen to your SDA's, you don't take them out for a Sunday afternoon stroll, you put the spurs to 'em. I'd be willing to bet that just about everyones PR's (and drivers) are out of original spec (mechanical Q alone) just from use of the past 20 years. Some probably more than others. That's something I'd be getting in front of as an SDA fan.

Cheers,
Russ

mdaudioguy

I think sales figures would be very revealing in this discussion, but I don't expect Polk to give them out. It's probably something like:

LSi = 1
RTi = LSi x 10
TSi = RTi x 10

See where the $$ is?

heiney9

comfortablycurt wrote: »

As far as the LSi vs. SDA debate goes...I wouldn't really say that ones better than the other. It's an apples to hammers comparison. They're VERY different sounding speakers. I love the SDA effect and the huge soundstage that you get from SDA's. However, I think the LSi's are a bit more accurate in the upper registers, and have a slightly tighter bass response.

Nope having owned both I can categorically say nope. Curt you need to get up here and hear my 1C's. One of the biggest weaknesses the LSi series has is it's poor, colored bass response. It can be improved with careful placement and I'm told most of this goes away with a X-over upgrade.

All that being said I am a HUGE believer in synergy and that plays a roll so I can see why people feel differently. I assume you are basing most of your opinion based on what you heard at Dave's. I agree the 9's almost sounded better than the 1C's based on how those were set-up. I've heard his 1C's in the basement and they sound a lot better.

No doubt stock LSi's are a great speaker. I got rid of the 9's because of their highly colored bass. They lacked the extension and naturalness I get with the 1C's. No doubt they sounded great for their size and I believe the midbass peak was designed in to give a little more lower end oomph.

The offer stands to come up and listen, so get yur a** up here :)

YMMV

H9

Toolfan66

RuSsMaN wrote: »

Can I buy a 99 cent cheese burger and throw a nice slice of organic tomato on it? Sure, you can tweak just about anything.

Good lord, does anybody actually LISTEN to their gear anymore, or just keep it jacking with it? Actually, I'd like to 'tweak' a few of you guys.

haha

tonyb

I can agree with both Brock and Russ on this one. Since the high end speaker market has more players these days than you can shake a stick at, with less and less consumers spending the cash in these times,Polk markets for the everyday joe,and tailors their sound to them, imho of coarse. Trick is,giving the consumer more speaker,year after year,and staying within a certain price point. Not a small task by any stretch. Polk has proven in the past they can put out high end, but can they make money on it ? After all,that is the bottom line. Obviously they can't, so they direct their speakers to the mass market...and do pretty darn good at it too. There may come a time when your wallet and ears need to move on past Polk, thats cool, then do it,alot of us have,but that in no way reflexs on what Polk does or puts out.

cfrizz

comfortablycurt wrote: »

As far as the LSi vs. SDA debate goes...I wouldn't really say that ones better than the other. It's an apples to hammers comparison. They're VERY different sounding speakers. I love the SDA effect and the huge soundstage that you get from SDA's. However, I think the LSi's are a bit more accurate in the upper registers, and have a slightly tighter bass response.

To be fair though, I've never own any LSi's. I'll hopefully be getting a pair of 9's later this year though, so I'll be able to make my own direct comparisons.

Great post Cathy. Agreed 100%.

I really don't think very many people would buy a factory direct XO upgrade kit. To the vast majority of people out there, the LSi's are as good sounding of a speaker as they'll ever need. What a lot of us seem to forget, is that Polk's main target consumer is NOT the crazy audiophiles. Their main target consumer is the average Joe blow that's looking to upgrade their audio experience, without spending an arm and a leg to get it.

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of LSi owners out there, are running them off of AVR's that aren't even rated for 4 ohm speakers. Most of these people are probably perfectly content with the way their rigs sound too. 90% of the owners of LSi speakers out there have probably never considered XO upgrades, or for that matter even realized that they could upgrade their XO's.

Like I said...a lot of us forget that the average audio product consumer isn't a crazy audiophile that spends thousands of dollars on IC cables, and hundreds of dollars on a single capacitor for a crossover. Let alone things like $30 "audiophile grade" fuses.

For the small 5% of the consumers out there that actually would consider modding the XO's...it's simple enough to do yourself, as long as you're halfway handy with a soldering iron. Even if you're not, there are plenty of people around the forums that have modded plenty of crossovers for people.

As for myself, I'd rather mod the XO's myself anyway. It's a fun project, and it's self rewarding. You also have the advantage of being able to try out different brands of capacitors etc...

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

The idea of polk offering an upgraded XO to the consumer is not a good idea at all for the company, a dumb idea at that. Why should Polk offer you that, and trust those of you that are afraid to tackle the DIY to install it correctly, and offer you a warranty on the XO or not void the warranty you have on your speakers. If your that affraid to pull the XO out yourself then you have no buisness even turning one of the screws out.:rolleyes:

There are a few people here, and Polk's CS that are willing to help you get the best out of you speakers. There is no need for polk to offer upgraded OX's it would not be a good buisness move. and really how many of the average consumer of any speakers even know what the hell an XO is..:rolleyes:

Thank you Curt. I agree with your statements as well.:)

I would be one of those people Tool.:D

I remember breaking into a cold sweat when I had to replace one of my drivers in my center channel. It turned out to be very easy, but I didn't like what it did to my blood pressure.:eek:

Everyone says that upgrading the tweeters in my RTA-8T's would make them sound much better. But with them being 20 years old, I'm not about to start messing with them.

And crossover? What's a crossover? I don't know what it is, what it looks like, what it even does. I guess mine are working since my speakers sound great!:D (And please don't bother telling what it is, I'm really not interested in knowing!:D)

I appreciate that a lot of you guys like messing with the innards of your gear, but you are the exceptions to the rule the vast majority are like myself & On3s&Z3r0s.

Poee7R

RuSsMaN wrote: »

Good lord, does anybody actually LISTEN to their gear anymore, or just keep it jacking with it?

Amen.


Dave

juliusbk4

heiney9 wrote: »

That's as high end as it will get for Polk................the LSi's aren;t without faults but they put many much more expensive speakers to shame. Depends on what one means by high end. If high end to some is a price tag then no they aren't high end, but if it's about a higher end sound, then yes they are on the cusp and compete very well with some so called higher end speakers.

+1 to what H9 said. When I bought my LSi's I demo'd many of these so called "higher end" speakers, I had no real budget I planned to buy whatever I liked. I listened to some of these 5-7K speakers in the secret show rooms and my LSi25s won hands down..Not even close in my opinion, and if it was close it was too close for me to justify the price tag. It also probably has a lot to do with the type of music you I like to listen to as well (Classical, R&B and Jazz), but Law of diminishing returns is the rule I live by. These speakers are just what my ears like, So LSi was a no brainer in my case.

FTGV

A limited production SE version of the Lsi's series might fly?Something like what Theil are doing with their 2.4SE with upgraded xover components.

Face

TECHNOKID wrote: »

We have to realize that many (even most) people don't have the ability nor willingness to do tweeking. As a business I am convinced that Polk realises this fact and for the sake of the majority of its clients maybe offering a quality Xo as an option could be a gain for Polk. We must realize that most of the electronics come from China and with larger tolerances specs nowadays and I would imagine the upgraded Xo has much smaller tolerance scale and comes from much better quality supplier. If a company only stick with the bottom cost-quality and do not offer the better quality as an option it loose some of its potential clientele.

I would not call their parts "bottom cost" as most of their parts, even from the SDA era, are still in spec. But in spec does not have a direct correlation with sound quality.

Yes, products can always be improved and wouldn't be time for Polk to improve those Lsi? If the community proved that the tweeks are a must to get the better out of the Lsi, I then think Polk should move in that direction, right?

It depends on how many people want this tweak. It appears that most consumers are happy with these speakers, it's not until they find their way over here that they want an upgrade.

FYI, most speakers under $20K can be tweaked. It's not until you spend crazy amounts of money until nothing can be improved.

cnh

I have to agree with Curt's statement that the average Joe OFTEN runs LSis off an AVR. If you DOUBT that. I have an eyeopening proposition that should surprise a lot of you.

Use the search engine and go back to the most oldest incarnation of this site currently available.
And look at
some of the POSTS MADE BY SOME VERY WELL KNOWN MEMBERS ON THIS SITE. A number of current 'tweakers', tubologists, and vinyl aficianados OWNED LSis and were powering them with AVRs...of course much of this just reflects that fact that everyone was once a newbie, many of us still are to our 'elders', i.e., the tweakologists above.

So Curt's comment is a bit revelatory and, unfortunately, we do seem to 'forget' our own history as we swap out caps and start to audio-babble about sonicaps, mills resistors, auricaps, crossover values and resistance and...and....and...and. Like Kathy says above...that's cool and all these guys can do what they want. But most people, as Russman points out so well, just want to listen to their gear...they want to relax not have a hypertensive fit because their soldering gun slipped and the blew out their crossover.

My experience listening to LSi-9s did not register this colored bass phenomenon, maybe it was the gear, maybe it was the room...don't really know. But now I'm just babbling.

My only point is REMEMBER ''your" history don't forget it.

The Lsis need an upgrade yes! .and I'm sure that's what Doro has referred to above. You want high end...there are a s-load of HIGH END speaker manufacturers so MANY its a wonder that they can all stay in business. So many that I bet NONE of us knows them 'all'. So what's the point of POLK entering the land of "I make speakers for a few dozen people!"



cnh

cfrizz

RuSsMaN wrote: »

Good lord, does anybody actually LISTEN to their gear anymore, or just keep it jacking with it? Cheers,
Russ

Actually Russ, I listen to my MUSIC not the gear. The music cannot be jacked with!:p;):D

F1nut

On3s&Z3r0s wrote: »

We all should make our own decisions about how we want to spend our money and the living room real estate we dedicate to audio and the level of effort we want to expend in modifying what we have purchased. That's pretty much the point of this thread. Polk has to respond to the economic decisions we all make around home audio purchases in the aggregate. Just because I don't appreciate the extra complexity of the SDA's, no matter how slight it might be, doesn't mean I don't deserve to own them.

I appreciate the speakers and am glad I own them. It was worth what I paid and the effort to fix the interconnect to hear my music on them. But, the interconnect is proprietary. It gets broken or lost. I wouldn't pay retail money for a new pair knowing what I know now. No disrespect intended to those who are waiting for SDA + LSi.

So, you had a problem with the interconnect cable and now you're down on SDA's? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Tell you what, try to find another speaker company that still supports their product with proprietary replacement tweeters and drivers 20+ years down the road.

F1nut

Amherst wrote: »

Have to disagree here Curt, I own the 9's and would absolutely consider an XO mod purchased directly from Polk. I was not satisfied with the room response in the environment the speakers were placed in. Because they had to be tucked away close to corners of the room the upper low frequency seemed to over take everything else. I do realize the rear porting has a lot to do with the problem, but I'm guessing some XO tweek in one direction or another would help.
The customer would need to be able to buy a custom spec unit, using Polk's knowledge to obtain a desired result.

For smaller rooms a mod to relieve this issue would have me keeping mine.
And if 5% of owners were willing to purchase a mod, what kind of numbers does that translate into?

That's called corner loading and there's nothing a crossover tweak can do to fix that issue.

F1nut

TECHNOKID wrote: »

We must realize that most of the electronics come from China and with larger tolerances specs nowadays and I would imagine the upgraded Xo has much smaller tolerance scale and comes from much better quality supplier.

If anything, the tolerances are tighter these days than 20 years ago. That said, even if you had a 1% tolerance electrolyic cap and a 10% tolerance high quality film and foil cap chances are greater that the high quality film and foil cap will sound better.

hearingimpared

Amherst wrote: »

Joe you have great points here. But if Polk was willing/able to possibly assign an engineer to crossovers built with custom components to tweek a box, I think it would take off. The stock board or one slightly larger to handle bigger caps would be a plus.

The buying power of components in bulk would probably also help costs. Just a thought.

Stu I have to disagree. Just how many orders per year do you think they would get? IMHO not that many on new speakers or even speakers made since 2001 to warrant paying an engineer to be assigned for such. As far as the buying power of comonents in bulk, take my low figure and raise it , now they've got bulk components sitting around taking up space and not making any money not to mention WHICH components do they go with?

I think making their stock boards a bit larger is a good idea as it will enable a DIYer to make any improvements with bigger caps easier but again at what cost? Take into consideration all the speakers they sell in a year. Then add the cost of a larger board in each one for the few who are going to be upgrading their xover components. I still don't see how this would be cost effective for them.

Look at the xover boards in any of the SDAs. Anyone who wants to upgrade their caps can figure out a way to fit them on the board no matter how small. Look at Darqueknights upgrades to the SDA/SRS . . . lots more caps needed to upgrade, compared to the other versions, on a pretty small board but he did it and it looks and sounds good.

I just see offering an upgrade kit as a major pain in the butt without much ROI. Besides if one wants to upgrade their speaker xovers but knows jack schitt about doing the job, there are plenty of shops who would be willing to do the work not to mention the people here who could do it for them plus they would be getting the caps and resistors of their choice rather than what Polk might have available on an off-the-shelf xover upgrade kit.

Just my humble opinion.:)

ben62670

Very well written Joe.

FTGV

F1nut wrote: »

That's called corner loading and there's nothing a crossover tweak can do to fix that issue.

Exactly it's not a crossover issue,it's a room placement problem combined with the somewhat bumped up mid -upper bass response.According to these measurements http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/polkaudio_lsi9/ the designer chose a port tuning that accenuated the 80-100hz region and near wall placement will boost this even more.

hearingimpared

RuSsMaN wrote: »

Can I buy a 99 cent cheese burger and throw a nice slice of organic tomato on it? Sure, you can tweak just about anything.

Good lord, does anybody actually LISTEN to their gear anymore, or just keep it jacking with it? Actually, I'd like to 'tweak' a few of you guys.

Oh, and as far as waving the Polk 'new sda - new high end' blah blah blah, ragged old flag..... How many of you would actually buy said speaker - 1%? Less? If a new SDA came out, it will only devalue and date your vintage models even further. If I were you guys, I'd be campaigning for better (and continued) legacy product support. I know how most of you listen to your SDA's, you don't take them out for a Sunday afternoon stroll, you put the spurs to 'em. I'd be willing to bet that just about everyones PR's (and drivers) are out of original spec (mechanical Q alone) just from use of the past 20 years. Some probably more than others. That's something I'd be getting in front of as an SDA fan.
Cheers,
Russ

Give that man a ceegar!;)

TECHNOKID

F1nut wrote: »

If anything, the tolerances are tighter these days than 20 years ago. That said, even if you had a 1% tolerance electrolyic cap and a 10% tolerance high quality film and foil cap chances are greater that the high quality film and foil cap will sound better.

The tolerance is part of the quality in a circuit. I don't consider 10% tolerance to be that great (unfortunately it seems to be pretty much the standard nowadays for consumer's electronincs). We have to realize that this 10% can be seen below the value and above it and therefore you can potentially see up to 20% difference between 2 components of the same rating. If you were to talk some like 1 - 2% toloerance (unfortunately found mainly in military specs or high quality gear only). Just imagine at the end of a circuit the potential of out of spec a circuit can finally be.

Stu I have to disagree. Just how many orders per year do you think they would get? IMHO not that many on new speakers or even speakers made since 2001 to warrant paying an engineer to be assigned for such.

There is no need to assign an engineer permanently to such project as this could be combined with the original development. Basically use tighter specs with better quality components but the engineer doesn't have to start over the design process.

As far as the buying power of comonents in bulk, take my low figure and raise it , now they've got bulk components sitting around taking up space and not making any money not to mention WHICH components do they go with?

Of course such is not desired but the value of components is usually repetitive in Xo boards and therefore the amount of specific components for the multiple different Xos might be insignificant.

I think making their stock boards a bit larger is a good idea as it will enable a DIYer to make any improvements with bigger caps easier but again at what cost? Take into consideration all the speakers they sell in a year. Then add the cost of a larger board in each one for the few who are going to be upgrading their xover components. I still don't see how this would be cost effective for them.

I don't see any benifith what so ever for Polk to do such. There is no advantage for Polk to Encourage DIY, on the opposite if Polk offers modified or special edition Xo to their clients there is then value for Polk since they make profit.

Look at the xover boards in any of the SDAs. Anyone who wants to upgrade their caps can figure out a way to fit them on the board no matter how small. Look at Darqueknights upgrades to the SDA/SRS . . . lots more caps needed to upgrade, compared to the other versions, on a pretty small board but he did it and it looks and sounds good.

This goes along with Russ comment about many of the speakers out there being out of spec due to age but I go as far as saying out of spec because of people tempering with those specs! I am convince that very few of us have engineering degrees but however temper with their gear like if they were engineers.

I just see offering an upgrade kit as a major pain in the butt without much ROI. Besides if one wants to upgrade their speaker xovers but knows jack schitt about doing the job, there are plenty of shops who would be willing to do the work not to mention the people here who could do it for them plus they would be getting the caps and resistors of their choice rather than what Polk might have available on an off-the-shelf xover upgrade kit.

There is no befinit for Polk to encourage outsiders to tamper with their gear. In fact, if Polk can provide SE Xos for its clientele they can keep better control, make money which then encourage and give them a valid reason for keeping the parts to maintain the old clunkers. There is costs for Polk to keep inventory for the vintage speakers and if they do so, they should make profit by doing so. Any vintage on the market is potentially a lost sale for Polk. Any tweekers is also a lost for Polk unless they can provide and control that market otherwise the tweekers cost Polk money.

hearingimpared

Ugh!

Kex

^^^^ Burp!

Toolfan66

Are some people drunk today on the forum or are they drinking stupid water?

It is no longer their gear it is my gear when I pay for it, and can do as I please with it.

Kex

I am stupid, I drink water, and I'm as drunk as I'll ever be. Does that count?

Toolfan66

Kex wrote: »

I am stupid, I drink water, and I'm as drunk as I'll ever be. Does that count?

LOL!! Only if you share what your drinking.