Will polk ever bring out high end speakers

heiney9

MillerLiteScott wrote: »

I think the car analogy that may also work with this higher end Polk Audio speaker line is the Volkswagen Phaeton. Everything I read about it put it up there with the S class Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Lexus and Infinity but it was still a Volkswagen and it was difficult to get people to spend 90+k on a Volkswagen, which at the time was selling sub 20K Golfs, even though the Phaeton was a great car. Nissan and Toyota created their higher end brands to sell the more expensive and exclusive cars and created and image and marketed them as such.

Pabst Blue Ribbon, PBR, was my first beer.

Scott

Since I'm a Volkswagen fan I was thinking the exact same analogy when this idea was brought up. The Phaeton was a great car and extremely well engineered but even I, as a VW aficionado, would never pay $90K for a Volkswagen. Same goes for Polk and a $5K or whatever is the next step up from the LSi's.

My first beer was Olympia in a steel can.

H9

nooshinjohn

F1nut wrote: »

Really. There's dems that gets it and there's dems that don't.

I have yet to meet a dem that get's it:D;)

nooshinjohn

dkg999 wrote: »

Me too! It was a Grain Belt. Cured me of liking beer until way beyond legal drinking age.

Budweiser did that for me:p

Face

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Budweiser did that for me

Same here.

asmd

i have a pair of 25's that i did not pay retail for and if i was coming up to the price of B&W's 800 series (804 diamonds come to mind), i would go for the b&w's fo sure.

btw - i opt for miller lite for its 90 cals, but rather kilkennys for flavor.

comfortablycurt

One point that I don't believe has been brought up yet, is what level would these mods be at?

Many people have modded their LSi's, but that doesn't mean that everyone has the exact same modifications. The prices of capacitors are all over the map. You can get dirt cheap caps for a dollar a piece, there are Solens and Clarity caps in the $20-30/each range...Sonicaps in the $45 range...all the way up to ultra high end caps costing hundreds of dollars each.

What level would these factory mods be at? The dirt cheap caps obviously would be pointless...so the mods are going to be relatively expensive no matter what. Some people are willing to drop big bucks on the mods and buy ultra high end components, but that's far from the norm. Most people would opt for the Solen/Clarity range options, or the Sonicap options. So...does Polk have to produce multiple levels of upgrades? Clarity's at $30 each are significantly more affordable than Sonicaps at $45 each. Many people would opt for the more expensive ones...but not everyone.

So does Polk have to offer Level 1 mods for $700, Level 2 mods for $1100, Level 3 mods for $1500 etc...?

(note-All the prices above are just examples. I didn't feel like researching the prices of different caps before this post.;))

For the most part, the only people that are ever going to even consider modding their Polk's XO's are the people on this board...otherwise known as the crazy audiophiles. What a lot of you need to realize though, is that this message board does NOT represent Polk's main target consumers. We're all crazy enough to spend a bunch of time posting on the internet about our audio gear. The average audio product consumer buys it, sets it up and listens to it. They don't give a single thought to modding their XO's to tweak more performance out of it.

As I said in an earlier post, I'd be willing to bet that the majority of LSi owners aren't even running their speakers off of an amp that's rated for 4 ohms. The average person doesn't have external amplification for their surround sound system. Most of the time their speakers are improperly placed, improperly calibrated and barely even level matched. Despite that, most of these people are probably more than happy with their setups. Do you really think that these people are going to drop even an extra $500 on their speakers that already cost about $1500 or so? They won't. Most of them don't even know what a crossover is. The average audio consumer probably doesn't even know what a tweeter is.

It's a very small percentage of Polk's consumer base that would actually consider buying an upgraded XO. Take the RD0 tweeter replacements for the vintage Monitor/SDA lines. The RD0's are a vastly superior tweeter...but I'd be willing to be that the majority of the owners of vintage Monitor/SDA speakers are still running their original SL-2000/2500/3000 tweeters, and are still perfectly happy with them. They've never noticed the 12.5khz peak on their SL-2000's, they aren't even aware that there is an upgraded replacement available from Polk...and they get hours of enjoyment out of their speakers every day. The same would apply to the LSi's and XO upgrades.

Some of you are making it sound like Polk absolutely HAS to offer this, because the LSi's sound like CRAP without them. This is not the case. The LSi's are truly some fantastic sounding speakers, with or without XO mods. The XO mods take it to a higher level...but there's hardly a piece of gear out there that couldn't benefit from some mods. If you want modded XO's, it's easy enough to do it yourself or have another board member do it for you. The statements regarding not being able to do this without an engineering degree aren't really significant. There is no reason that the average DIY'er wouldn't be able to improve the stock XO's. It's not as if you're actually changing any of the XO architecture though...you're simply replacing the components with higher quality components. All of the XO values remain the same.




Regarding Polk needing to offer a truly high end offering...how many would actually buy it brand new? I wouldn't. I don't buy any of my gear brand new. When I get myself a pair of LSi9's eventually, I'll probably snag a pair off of Polk Direct...and that's about as close as I'd ever come to buying new.

VR3

That was a very long post

comfortablycurt

I could make it longer, if you'd like.


That's one of the things about posts. Sometimes they're long. Other times they aren't. You never can tell until you're done typing them and re-reading it.


Chalk it up to me not having anything better to do at the moment.

polkfarmboy

I think curts post made sense

I also went outside the forum to search for answers to the question in my op

It seems that the name polk gets ridiculed among high end snobs because polk mass markets its products . For that reason even if polk did do an ultra high end it would never make it into the high end dealerships because it has the name polk

This brand discriminating is mainly evident with the lsi15 . I read so many threads about how polk made a speaker that was too good to be sold in high end retail stores . The problem was that it outperformed speakers that cost way more . Some manufacturers were so fearful of the lsi15 that they threatened to pull out there whole line from dealerships that sold the polks

Imagine just how successful the lsi line could have been if they gave it a larger price tag and changed the brand name on them. Imagine the POLK LSI15 had been branded with some stupid pretentious high end snobbish name like _______ The LOMANCO 5000's _______ I bet alot of rich audiophiles would have had owned a set at some point

For me I love my martin logan because of my small room but when I get a larger space ..... I will be first in line for a HT system when these new lsi lines get released and my logans will be put on ebay


Long live polk audio

dubradio

I would like to pose a question to all of you who support the idea of having an upgraded crossover made available by Polk Audio.

Taking into account the generaly DIY tweaks people are doing and porting that to a Factory made Crossover (i.e. - Electrolytic caps, tighter tolerances, etc..)

How much would you be willing to pay for said crossover?

tcrossma

KyleShufelt wrote: »

I would like to pose a question to all of you who support the idea of having an upgraded crossover made available by Polk Audio.

Taking into account the generaly DIY tweaks people are doing and porting that to a Factory made Crossover (i.e. - Electrolytic caps, tighter tolerances, etc..)

How much would you be willing to pay for said crossover?

For me, with my LSi15's, $500 is probably the "quick sale" limit. Above that I'd have to really give some thought as to whether or not to do the mod, keep them as they are, or invest in some different speakers.

Another pretty big factor for me is ease of installation and down time. If I have to take my XO's out and send them to somebody for 4 weeks, probably not going to happen.

I also do not like the idea of an external XO, so whatever is offered has to fit inside.

polkatese

Kyle,

For the "SE" version of the LSi15 (or future similar model) X/O, I am willing to pay between $300 to $700.

Just as a comparison, on CDP mods, I think the rule of thumb is actually more like 3 times of the stock price. I paid about 2.5 to 3 times on my two CDPs. The price goes higher for tube mods.

LessisNevermore

It's tough to answer, not having heard the finished product. Maybe some of the guys that have done the upgrade can chime in, and help put a dollar amount on the improvement.

Personally, anything approaching 50% of the cost of the speaker would be too high. 30%, IMO could be a sweet spot.

dubradio

1 thing to keep in mind is that any "upgrade" would need to still fit an utalize the original XO board. The greatest cost of any crossover is the tooling required to print/etch the circuit path.

nooshinjohn

KyleShufelt wrote: »

1 thing to keep in mind is that any "upgrade" would need to still fit an utalize the original XO board. The greatest cost of any crossover is the tooling required to print/etch the circuit path.

I would pay 350.00 +/- a bit for an upgrade. If Polk were to do such a thing, it should be retro to the earlier speakers as well and could be done as a swap. The replacement, upgraded crossover could be sent to the customer and the original boards sent back in a return package. This may reduce costs for the boards as they can/will be reused.:)

If you build it, they will come. Put me in for a set.:D:cool:

maximillian

KyleShufelt wrote: »

1 thing to keep in mind is that any "upgrade" would need to still fit an utalize the original XO board. The greatest cost of any crossover is the tooling required to print/etch the circuit path.

That's interesting. I design electronics for a living and the bare PCB is one of the cheapest things. So I would have thought the components would have been the highest cost. This is for 1 or 2 oz boards though. I guess audio boards have to utilize much thicker traces, and that probably makes them more expensive.

Cost for me... it depends on how you implement it and how good the reviews are. I would probably pay $300-$400 for good reviews. It really depends on the components that Polk uses. Realize that people have already done the LSi9 mod and calculated the cost to be around $270 after shipping using Sonicaps. So Polk would have to use equivalent quality components if they are to charge considerable coin for the mod. Otherwise I would just do the work myself.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?p=911143#post911143

reeltrouble1

I would budget and pay between 10-15 thousand for a pair of hi-fi Polk Speakers.

RT1

concealer404

If i had LSi series, i would consider paying $500 for upgraded xovers on LSi15s/25s. A little less for 9/7s.

fatchowmein

Kyle,
I'm not a DIY'er but if you guys unveiled a new LSi line and the new sonically superior LSi15 pair was going to cost $2,000+, I wouldn't mind paying $300 to upgrade/refresh my 15's to keep up with the replacement if the package came with detailed instructions and there are youtube instructional videos to watch (or I could take it all to Russman with a 12 pack but he's kinda intimidating in those dark sunglasses).

I would hesitate on $500 just because of the economy, the euro, and North Korea but would eventually get it done.

polkfarmboy

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

i would budget and pay between 10-15 thousand for a pair of hi-fi polk speakers.

Rt1

lmao:d

TECHNOKID

The discussion has suddenly turned around , after Doro's and RussMan's response I tought this thread wasn't worthwile pursuing anymore.

One point that I don't believe has been brought up yet, is what level would these mods be at?

In order to be viable for Polk and the users, there should be only one SE mod kit.

Many people have modded their LSi's, but that doesn't mean that everyone has the exact same modifications.

That is where the engineering comment is all about. Yes all parts are of the same value but furthermore they should fit at the exact same location be of the same size etc... If not, you can worsen ratter than improve. Many of today's improvement came from the DIYers and I believe there is enough meat (info) on this site for Polk to implement such mods at a competitve price.

The prices of capacitors are all over the map:
-You can get dirt cheap caps for a dollar a piece: I believe that is the typical caps used in the factory right (basically consumer grade)

-Solens and Clarity caps in the $20-30/each range...Sonicaps in the $45 range...all the way up to ultra high end caps costing hundreds of dollars each.

From my reading on this site, weren't Sonicaps suppose to be avoided?

The mods are going to be relatively expensive no matter what. Some people are willing to drop big bucks on the mods and buy ultra high end components, but that's far from the norm. Most people would opt for the Solen/Clarity range options, or the Sonicap options.

We are on the same page here so that is where the price point should be 20 - 30$ caps and while Solen and Clarity seemed to be the favored brands)

So...does Polk have to produce multiple levels of upgrades? Clarity's at $30 each are significantly more affordable than Sonicaps at $45 each. Many people would opt for the more expensive ones...but not everyone.

So does Polk have to offer Level 1 mods for $700, Level 2 mods for $1100, Level 3 mods for $1500 etc...?

While Polk would have a basic SE or enhance kit available for the DIY if one has the money to go for better quality components, the client could be led to an aprroved Polk tech shop (which uses approved Polk selected High End components) for any special request (I figure at that point money is no object).

For the most part, the only people that are ever going to even consider modding their Polk's XO's are the people on this board...otherwise known as the crazy audiophiles. What a lot of you need to realize though, is that this message board does NOT represent Polk's main target consumers. We're all crazy enough to spend a bunch of time posting on the internet about our audio gear. The average audio product consumer buys it, sets it up and listens to it. They don't give a single thought to modding their XO's to tweak more performance out of it.

The Lsi product is not an average product (at least in Canada) since you do not find them in big box store (where the mass do buy their speakers) and to be honest you have to do some research as even many high end store will not get involved with the Polk product. Why is that so? Marketting wise I think it is worhtwhile for Polk to find the answer to this. Marketting offering of such kits in the user manual will go a long way. Maybe something like a "Polk Enhance or HE" line could be introduced in boutique. That shouldn't be of great cost to Polk since it would be the same Xo with better components and maybe some extra luxury trimmings on the speaker enclosure???

Do you really think that these people are going to drop even an extra $500 on their speakers that already cost about $1500 or so? They won't. Most of them don't even know what a crossover is. The average audio consumer probably doesn't even know what a tweeter is.

I think that people that are willing to dump $1500 on speakers don't have to worry so much about budget and some would be definitely be opened to an enhanced product. Yes, it is not the majority but if it weren't viable High End Stores would all need to close! This is a niche market but usually niche markets are top dollars.

It's a very small percentage of Polk's consumer base that would actually consider buying an upgraded XO. Take the RD0 tweeter replacements for the vintage Monitor/SDA lines. The RD0's are a vastly superior tweeter...but I'd be willing to be that the majority of the owners of vintage Monitor/SDA speakers are still running their original SL-2000/2500/3000 tweeters, and are still perfectly happy with them. They've never noticed the 12.5khz peak on their SL-2000's, they aren't even aware that there is an upgraded replacement available from Polk...and they get hours of enjoyment out of their speakers every day. The same would apply to the LSi's and XO upgrades.

Marketting is the key to selling products. If Polk advertise their upgrades in the user manual that may surely help.

Some of you are making it sound like Polk absolutely HAS to offer this, because the LSi's sound like CRAP without them. This is not the case. The LSi's are truly some fantastic sounding speakers, with or without XO mods. The XO mods take it to a higher level...

I don't think anyone believes that the Lsi are crap however they are not considered high end by some user (we have seen them compared defavorably with other brands even HERE on this site). Maybe an enhance version could turn this around??? Polk doesn't have to do anything about it if they feel it is not viable however, if the High End niche interest them then this might make a difference.

Regarding Polk needing to offer a truly high end offering...how many would actually buy it brand new? I wouldn't. I don't buy any of my gear brand new. When I get myself a pair of LSi9's eventually, I'll probably snag a pair off of Polk Direct...and that's about as close as I'd ever come to buying new.

However, when your used speakers need an upgrade kit and if Polk can offer to provide you with most of the work done for you and at competitive pricing, wouldn't you go for it? If you go for this, this would also be good for Polk since they would at least make a little money with you and this not counting that their extraordinary CS would get exposure there too.

KyleShufelt wrote: »

I would like to pose a question to all of you who support the idea of having an upgraded crossover made available by Polk Audio.

Taking into account the generaly DIY tweaks people are doing and porting that to a Factory made Crossover (i.e. - Electrolytic caps, tighter tolerances, etc..)

How much would you be willing to pay for said crossover?

Considering Polk get a better price on larger order on components then a kit should be competitive with the usal consumer costs.

KyleShufelt wrote: »

1 thing to keep in mind is that any "upgrade" would need to still fit an utalize the original XO board. The greatest cost of any crossover is the tooling required to print/etch the circuit path.

As I and others pointed out, a one for one Xo exchange could be put in place and therefore help cut costs. Polk's manufacturing already being in place and only adding cost for higher grade components Polk should be able to offer the Xo for not much more than what the consumer would pay for the components if he was to order them from a consumer lsupplier. Probably plus or minus 500$ for a pair would be good price point???


Cheers!
TK

On3s&Z3r0s

Interesting recent NYT article about the overall lanscape of the audio market:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/10/business/media/10audio.html?scp=1&sq=fidelity&st=cse

dubradio

Techno,

Well Done on the response. :thumbup:

Everyone,

Thanks for all the input. Posts like these that have significant attention do get noticed. I will be forwarding this to some of our engineers as well as many other folks here at Polk to identify whether or not a crossover upgrade will be a viable option.

-Kyle

Amherst

Half MSRP of said speaker.

TECHNOKID

Amherst wrote: »

Half MSRP of said speaker.

Actually, I'd be more likely thinking in the are of 33% as we have to realize that for such to work it has to be significantly less then the product otherwise the consumer would potentially replace the speaker instead. With an upgrade in the area of 30 - 33%, you then get the consumer to evaluate options such as revamping a speaker he loved for years versus a replacement.

KyleShufelt, I just gave an opinion to your legitimate question. Polk is providing outstanding customer service for their product even for their vintage so I consider that it would fair if Polk could make the money on the upgrades instead of being left to the aftermarket companies. This is a two way street, Polk provide satisfaction to their clients but also make the money, this is what business is all about!

Cheers!
TK

hearingimpared

TECHNOKID wrote: »

That is where the engineering comment is all about. Yes all parts are of the same value but furthermore they should fit at the exact same location be of the same size etc... If not, you can worsen ratter than improve. Many of today's improvement came from the DIYers and I believe there is enough meat (info) on this site for Polk to implement such mods at a competitve price.

From my reading on this site, weren't Sonicaps suppose to be avoided?

Not true about the size of the caps TK! They are in most cases going to be larger that is why a DIYer needs to plan ahead as to how he his going to position them on the board, i.e., piggy back, standing on end etc.

I think you miss read the comments about Sonicaps. They are the favored caps in most cases, it is the SOLEN caps that were suggested to be avoided.:)

dubradio

tk,

I absolutley aggree with you, and just to clarify, I my self am not saying we wont do this or we will. Im simply a CS/TS rep, I dont have the power to make those decisions.... However I can bring items (like this entire forum post) to the attention of people who can, as hopefully sway them to look a little deeper into creating an XO upgrade



_EDIT - FYI Ive used Solen/Soni/Clarity caps and While I have been impressed with the Sonicaps I have actually utalized the Solen Caps on most of my speakers. As I personally have found them to offer the best Bang for the Buck

TECHNOKID

hearingimpared wrote: »

Not true about the size of the caps TK! They are in most cases going to be larger that is why a DIYer needs to plan ahead as to how he his going to position them on the board, i.e., piggy back, standing on end etc.
I think you miss read the comments about Sonicaps. They are the favored caps in most cases, it is the SOLEN caps that were suggested to be avoided.:)

Size: I understand due to the material utilized but that is some Polk could potentially work around.

Positionning (piggy backing etc...): This is area where I think it could lead to problems (too much variables that can affect a different placenent that in most cases should be left to the engineers)

Sonicaps versus Solen: I stand corrected

KyleShufelt wrote: »

tk,

I absolutley aggree with you, and just to clarify, I my self am not saying we wont do this or we will. Im simply a CS/TS rep, I dont have the power to make those decisions.... However I can bring items (like this entire forum post) to the attention of people who can, as hopefully sway them to look a little deeper into creating an XO upgrade



_EDIT - FYI Ive used Solen/Soni/Clarity caps and While I have been impressed with the Sonicaps I have actually utalized the Solen Caps on most of my speakers. As I personally have found them to offer the best Bang for the Buck

I fully understand this is strickly a discussion and Polk audio needs to evaluate if this is viable for the company or not.

Cheers!
TK

heiney9

KyleShufelt wrote: »

_EDIT - FYI Ive used Solen/Soni/Clarity caps and While I have been impressed with the Sonicaps I have actually utalized the Solen Caps on most of my speakers. As I personally have found them to offer the best Bang for the Buck

Odd, as most feel the Clarity's are better than Solens both in tone and bang for buck. But herein lies the issue, we all hear differently, all have different gear, and all like different flavors.

I will say the Solens are certainly better than stock el-cheapo electrolytics or even cheap film caps.

FWIW

H9

LessisNevermore

KyleShufelt wrote: »

Techno,

Well Done on the response. :thumbup:

Everyone,

Thanks for all the input. Posts like these that have significant attention do get noticed. I will be forwarding this to some of our engineers as well as many other folks here at Polk to identify whether or not a crossover upgrade will be a viable option.

-Kyle

Thanks Kyle, for taking the time to gather our input, and pass it up the chain. Whether this happens or not, it's nice to see this level of customer service!