Vinyl Snap, Crackle & Pop Issues and Solutions!

hearingimpared

Fongolio wrote: »

I have to run a humidifier in the the winter months to keep the static down on the TT setup. Humidity up to about 70% Milty zerostat and carbon fiber brush before each play. All that and I still get a little static. I use a Herbie's mat and I find if I actually wash it in mild dish soap then rinse and let hang dry every few days it attracts less static. Left alone it really builds up a lot of static on my Pro-ject 6.9.

Kel, as noted in a previous post, when using a humidifier it would be prudent to check the area around it for a mold build up from time to time as LPs are mold magnets and the mold behaves like cancer in vinyl.

Fongolio

Yes, I meant VTA on the fly. With the Pro-ject there are two allen bolts that you loosen and then move the whole arm assembly up or down in a tube. Not easy, not handy, and inexact. I've seen the dial type ones that are much more functional. If I could adjust either on the fly I should head straight to medical school and become a surgeon!!

I keep the humidifier far from my precious vinyl. My place is small so I go more for a whole place approach to humidity instead of just a room. The windows tell me when I'm over doing it as they start to develop moisture. Also I have hygrometers in three different locations and never let it get above 72%. I find that around 65% is ideal. Interestingly 65 to 68 is where I feel most comfortable where I start to loose static build up and where my cigars in my humidor smoke the best.

hearingimpared

Fongolio wrote: »

Yes, I meant VTA on the fly. With the Pro-ject there are two allen bolts that you loosen and then move the whole arm assembly up or down in a tube. Not easy, not handy, and inexact. I've seen the dial type ones that are much more functional. If I could adjust either on the fly I should head straight to medical school and become a surgeon!!

I keep the humidifier far from my precious vinyl. My place is small so I go more for a whole place approach to humidity instead of just a room. The windows tell me when I'm over doing it as they start to develop moisture. Also I have hygrometers in three different locations and never let it get above 72%. I find that around 65% is ideal. Interestingly 65 to 68 is where I feel most comfortable where I start to loose static build up and where my cigars in my humidor smoke the best.

LOL!!! No kidding! My tonarm is the same with two allens on the base which must be loosened to adjust the VTA. I did try it once and the whole tonearm slide on the rails!:eek: Good thing it was a scrap record I was using plus I near s%it a brick thinking I ruined the stylus.

jm1

hearingimpared,

Lots of good information here for all to consider. Thanks for the effort.

On the subject of the thread, has anyone considered trying or using ultrasonic cleaners instead of the more traditional methods? I almost purchased an appropriately sized unit to try but decided to experiment building a plinth from a different material first. I would be interested to hear the results of ultrasonic cleaning from anyone who has access to or owns a unit big enough to clean an LP.

bikezappa

I used heated ultrasonic cleaners at work to clean parts for the semiconductor industry.
IMHO they are the best way to clean a LP. We would use a cleaning solution diluted with DI water followed by two DI rinses and dry it with a dionized nitrogen.

They are very expensive however.

jm1

bikezappa wrote: »

I used heated ultrasonic cleaners at work to clean parts for the semiconductor industry.
IMHO they are the best way to clean a LP. We would use a cleaning solution diluted with DI water followed by two DI rinses and dry it with a dionized nitrogen.

They are very expensive however.

An appropriately sized unit (6L) is less than the VPI 16.5 I currently have. I was planning on ultrasonic cleaning first then using the RCM to remove the remaining fluid from the surface. Not sure if any other steps would be necessary after the ultrasonic clean.

From your post, I am not clear if you tried cleaning an LP this way or you think it would be the best way.

Dawgfish

george daniel wrote: »

If you like,I'll post,or pm my impressions of his re-tip--got my Dynavector 20 XL-Lo mc in for a re-tip--should have it back in about a month.

I love the way my Soundsmith retipped Dynavector 20XH sounds on my SL-1200, so you should be in for a real treat! The only thing is I bought mine already retipped from Soundsmith, so I don't know how it compares to the original Dynavector with stock stylus. The guy I bought it from off the Gon says it's much more musical and tracks better, with more detail, but I can't say for sure personally. I'm very intersted to hear your report on it and how it compares to stock. This should be interesting. Oh yeah, I had always heard that the Soundsmith retipped Dynavector 20Xs are very sensitive to VTA. I definitely found this to be the case! I tried several VTA adjustments and experimented with different thickness mats (I ended up liking the Herbies 4.7 mm thick matt better than the recommended 3.7mm thick mat) before coming up with my current set-up, which is excellent.

bikezappa

[QUOTE=jm1;From your post, I am not clear if you tried cleaning an LP this way or you think it would be the best way.[/QUOTE]

I gave up on playing LPs many years ago. All though I have two turnatbles,
60s Thorens and a B&O. I never tried to clean a LP by ultrsonic however. But we would spend many hours looking at cleaned ultrsonic surfaces. The little ultrasonic bubbles would explode in the DI water on the surface of the part or lp groove and remove all the small particles nondestructively. That was the advantage of ultrsonic, no solids touched the part only liquids or energetic vapors.

Another more even expensive cleaning method would be snow cleaning with dry ice. A fine shower of very small dry ice particles would be sprayed on the surface and these dry ice paricles would warm up and sublimate, go from solid to vapor. The vapor would dislodge any small particles. Once again no solids remove particles from the surface just gases.

But the real problem is that after the best cleaning the room air starts to add new particles on to the LP right away.

jm1

bikezappa wrote: »

The little ultrasonic bubbles would explode in the DI water on the surface of the part or lp groove and remove all the small particles nondestructively. That was the advantage of ultrsonic, no solids touched the part only liquids or energetic vapors.

Yes, that is why I would like to try ultrasonic cleaning; cavitation. Thanks for the reply.

Fongolio

I'd love to try ultrasonic cleansing. Even new records still have mold release compound on them that can be noisy if not cleaned well. I really like the idea of non friction cleaning.

DarqueKnight

bikezappa wrote: »

Just for kicks and chuckles turn off all the lights in your room and turn on a high intensity flash light and you will see many particules floating around and landing on your LP while it's playing.

bikezappa wrote: »

And some of it falls into your record grooves to make pops.

It's really amazing that there are so few pops with all the dust floating around.

bikezappa wrote: »

But the real problem is that after the best cleaning the room air starts to add new particles on to the LP right away.

Why would dust suspended in the air be a problem for a spinning record?

Wouldn't the speed of the record repel almost all of the suspended atmospheric dust that comes into contact with the record surface?

Wouldn't the movement of the record's surface make it particularly difficult for a dust particle to settle in a groove?

Since an atmospheric dust particle is light enough to be picked up and suspended by air molecules, wouldn't coming into contact the much more massive spinning record surface and stylus exert a repulsive rather than attractive force on the dust? (This assumes some attractive force such as moisture or static electricity is not at work)

A 12 in LP has a circumference of C=pi*d=3.1416*12=37.7 inches.

The outer rim of the LP rotates at a speed of 33.33 revolutions per minute or

33.33 rpm * 37.7 inches per revolution = 1256.54 inches per minute. Converting inches per minute to miles per hour gives:

1256.54 inches/minute * 1 ft/12in * 60 min/hour * 1mile/5280 ft = 1.18 miles/hour.

The average LP label is 4" in diameter, which equates to a rotational speed of 0.4 miles/hour for the outer circumference of the label. Therefore, points on the record surface between its outer edge and the beginning of the record label travel at a speed of 0.4 mph to 1.18 mph (7 inches/second to 21 inches/second).

Is this fast enough to "bounce back" an atmospherically suspended dust particle?

I can see where dust settling could become a problem with LP's left to sit motionless on the turntable platter for long periods of time...but I wouldn't expect anyone here to be doing that.

Such good physics.

schwarcw

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Is this fast enough to "bounce back" an atmospherically suspended dust particle?

Probably, but maybe not if it's charged.

I liked the physics example, it kind of reminded me of the example problems in the physics textbook in college. The assigned homework problem would be like this. "Using the information in the example problem, calculate the velocity of the wind that would cause your full throat hocker to fly back directly into your face? Assume the hocker is spherical, and has the mass of a Hershey's kiss propelled from your mouth at 3.233 meters/sec.

Bonus: Does it hit you in your eye or your forehead?

bikezappa

Electro static forces are the problem here. The LP is plastic and is a dielectric material. This allows the LP to have an electrical charge on the surface. I think but I’m not sure that rotating the LP will actually increase the electric charge. That may depend on the moisture in the air. The electric charge will hold the dust particles when they contact the LP. The key force is called Vander Walls, not sure of that spelling.

Mechanical forces such as F=ma are not the problem with LPs and dust.

Maybe they should make LPs from metal?

schwarcw

You would make a good teacher.

DarqueKnight

bikezappa wrote: »

Electro static forces are the problem here. The LP is plastic and is a dielectric material. This allows the LP to have an electrical charge on the surface.

Yes. That is why I, and many other vinyl enthusiasts store our records in anti-static record sleeves (made by Goldring, Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs, Nitty Gritty, etc.) and use an anti-static treatment such as the Milty Zerostat Anti-Static Gun. From Zerostat's sales literature:

"Static electricity is an LP owner's enemy. It's what attracts dust and dirt to vinyl, and they can damage the surface over time. Sure, you can clean away debris, but why not help prevent it accumulating in the first place?

Zap static with Zerostat. A couple of trigger pulls does the trick. Zerostat 3 is the latest version of the original piezo-electric antistatic pistol that's been an audiophile favorite for years. It reduces static on insulating surfaces such as phonograph records, film negatives, and more."

bikezappa wrote: »

I think but I’m not sure that rotating the LP will actually increase the electric charge. That may depend on the moisture in the air. The electric charge will hold the dust particles when they contact the LP. The key force is called Vander Walls, not sure of that spelling.

Van der Waals forces in an electrostatic context refer to permanently charged molecules (molecular ions) and not to temporarily charged surfaces such as a vinyl record.

bikezappa wrote: »

Mechanical forces such as F=ma are not the problem with LPs and dust.

Dust only becomes a real problem when it becomes embedded in a record groove or gouges out vinyl material in a record groove. If mechanical force is not the cause of dust particles becoming embedded in and damaging record grooves, what is?

Dust settling in a record's grooves does no harm, similar to falling from the top of a 100 story building causes no injury. It is the impact with the ground that "hurts". Likewise, it is the mechanical grinding of dust against record grooves by the diamond stylus that causes damage rather than the settling of dust alone.

bikezappa wrote: »

Maybe they should make LPs from metal?

This would cause even more problems.

Good anti-static handling and maintenance procedures, along with thorough cleaning and handling procedures, works very well.

bikezappa

Dust only becomes a real problem when it becomes embedded in a record groove or gouges out vinyl material in a record groove. If mechanical force is not the cause of dust particles becoming embedded in and damaging record grooves, what is?.[/QUOTE]

I thought you were talking about how/why dust gets on a rotating LP?

Electrostatic forces cause the dust to be in the record groove.
Mechanican forces between the dust and needle cause the damage.

DarqueKnight

bikezappa wrote: »

I thought you were talking about how/why dust gets on a rotating LP?

Electrostatic forces cause the dust to be in the record groove.
Mechanican forces between the dust and needle cause the damage.

My points were:

1. For a properly cleaned and anti-static treated record, electrostatic forces are not a big concern.

2. The motion of the spinning record surface will repel most suspended dust from settling on it, similar to the way that a spinning merry-go-round would repel balloons falling on it from above.

bikezappa

DarqueKnight wrote: »

My points were:

1. For a properly cleaned and anti-static treated record, electrostatic forces are not a big concern.

2. The motion of the spinning record surface will repel most suspended dust from settling on it, similar to the way that a spinning merry-go-round would repel balloons falling on it from above.

1. We agree to disagree.

2. Then maybe they should make a record cleaner that spins very fast. Could work.
Spinning force << electrostatic force for very very small particulates.

DarqueKnight

bikezappa wrote: »

1. We agree to disagree.

2. Then maybe they should make a record cleaner that spins very fast. Could work.
Spinning force << electrostatic force for very very small particulates.

Similar to the clean room scenario you proposed, A rapidly spinning record cleaning machine would be overkill for removing speckles of light surface dust falling out of the air. An anti-static gun or similar static release device and a suitable brush work very well...followed by storage in a high quality anti-static sleeve.

Record cleaning machines based on a wet cleaning and vacuuming process work very well to address the major record contaminants in record grooves such as fungus (mold and mildew), mold release compounds, skin oils and buildup of dirt due to negligent maintenance and handling.

paradiddle

Here is a novice question. Is crackling back for one's speakers?

Tour2ma

Two things...

A spinning LP does generate static electricity... point to bike zappa.

There is one final, if all else fails, way to eek a bearable play out of an irreplaceable, but also unbearably noisy, gem... wet play. Simply mist the LP with distilled water and play.

The only cautions are that the LP must be clean (or else a ball of grundge will appear on your stylus) and some believe wet play further damages even a clean LP. I disagree with the latter, but offer it for consideration. Regardless, the intent is recording, not repeated listening.

inspiredsports

In the "for what it's worth" department . . .

I'm constantly experimenting with ways to enjoy the benefits of a great record cleaning machine without making the large investment (someday . . . )

After an initial wet cleaning with distalled water/dawn/anhydrous alcohol and rinse with distalled water, I have finally settled upon a daily dry solution that works quite well.

After a meticulous wet cleaning as above and when thoroughly dry, I store all of my LP's in Mobile Fidelity Original Master Sleeves. I then use a series of the following each play.

-- vintage Signet SK310 hand held Record Cleaner block (dry)
-- Thorens Anti-Static record cleaner brush
-- Mapleshade Static Draining Record Brush (plugs into wall outlet ground)

-- Every 3rd or 4th play I use the Mapleshade Iconoclast

The Mapleshade products make all of the difference in the world, eliminating about 99.9% of the static I used to experience before acquiring them.

DON73

I remember going through a lot of the cleaning steps outlined here and how much I "enjoyed" the ritual. Now I have a CD player and all I get to do is listen to the damn music.

inspiredsports

DON73 wrote: »

I remember going through a lot of the cleaning steps outlined here and how much I "enjoyed" the ritual. Now I have a CD player and all I get to do is listen to the damn music.

You would be interested to know the Mapleshade Iconoclast literature outlines the benefits of using it on CD's too.

I've just recently acquired the Iconoclsast, listening mostly to vinyl, but have just started to use it on my CD's and experiment/listen.

You can at least add that part back to your ritual :biggrin:

marly421

HB27 wrote: »

Excellent Post.
Let me add another tidbit or two of info I've found to help with the "crackle & pops".
My place is extremely dry and a humidifier has been a blessing when playing vinyl.
Humidity levels contribute to the static.
Don't be afraid of using Windex on some really nasty vinyl. IF you can't get it clean using recommended cleaners Windex loosens the tar and nicotine and cleans it up pretty good.
There is a lot of "smokers" vinyl out there. Careful on the labels because the ammonia will loosen the adhesive.

Record vinyl and their labels are NOT glued on! No adhesive is ever used. Never use ammonia or Windex, wow what bad advice and information.

rromeo923

Just bought this http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/sylvania-steam-cleaner/ID=prod6047652-product

Cleaned one album that I had deemed unplayable due to many cracks, pops etc.
Used Steam cleaner on RCM w/Vacuum, Tergitol solution and then distilled water rinse w/vacuum, Steam again and vacuum.

Album now VERY playable!!!

Even better my local Walgreens now has these on clearance for $7.49!

Very impressed w/ the improvement this process has made over just RCM w/vacuum.