my first hifi system. Input greatly appreciated!

Kex

be83663 wrote: »

... Compared to NAD C 355BEE, 375 has twice as much power and, most importantly, half the THD of 0.009%. ...

You may be overthinking the numbers far too much here, even if the C375BEE would be an excellent choice, as would many of the other suggestions.

Kex

eddylight wrote: »

Geez. Stereophile and Goodsound and one other guy had nothing but nice things to say about the Outlaw receiver. It may very well be what will drive my lsi's.

The last time I based a decision on rave reviews for a new product, I didn't even keep the product for one month. It was total hype, and I won't be making that mistake again in a hurry.

I don't know how good this Outlaw unit would be, and there's every chance it's a decent product, but I would put any NAD integrated in a blind listening test against it with total confidence ... even those rated at a mere 50w/ch.

If you start looking at shiny faceplates, sexy blue LED lights, hyped reviews, printed specifications in the minutest detail and such, then you're most likely to fall victim to some marketing strategy thought up in some boardroom somewhere IMO, and that may or may not get you the best value for your listening money. There's no guarantee that you'll like NAD either, simply because NAD is not about hype or sexy, but there's only one way to find out.

be83663

By the way, my system that my Outlaw Model 7700 7-Channel Balanced Amplifier drives without any clipping problems consists of two pairs of LSi9, a LSiC, and a pair of LSiFX.

eddylight

i used similar site reviews to come to my choice in polk and nad. Outlaw has a link on the 2150 page to reviews and there are a lot. google shows a few more. seems to be a very unique product. is it's thd that bad? .03%.

one reviewer used it to power 90K worth of speakers and described it as being surprisingly adequate.

I can understand that a dedicated NAD amp will be better, but I wonder by how much? I might just have to take the risk. Can always trade up later.

But the Outlaw is a very neat product, isn't it? It has everything!

I'm also "listening" to anyone who thinks they can convince me to go with Lsi7's instead. I'm intrigued by the idea that they might be even better. Also interested in the crossover upgrade as my first little project later on. My main concern is I wouldn't want to cross the sub up too high to where it's localizeable. The 7's go adequately low?

Zitro

eddylight wrote: »

i used similar site reviews to come to my choice in polk and nad. Outlaw has a link on the 2150 page to reviews and there are a lot. google shows a few more. seems to be a very unique product. is it's thd that bad? .03%.

one reviewer used it to power 90K worth of speakers and described it as being surprisingly adequate.

I can understand that a dedicated NAD amp will be better, but I wonder by how much? I might just have to take the risk. Can always trade up later.

But the Outlaw is a very neat product, isn't it? It has everything!

I'm also "listening" to anyone who thinks they can convince me to go with Lsi7's instead. I'm intrigued by the idea that they might be even better. Also interested in the crossover upgrade as my first little project later on. My main concern is I wouldn't want to cross the sub up too high to where it's localizeable. The 7's go adequately low?

It depends on the room. I find in mine the bass is adequate, but the room is only 11X13. I also don't listen to hip-hop or heavy rock extensively on that system. That's where the 200 wpc Sansui G-9700 and Polk Monitor 10's come in

The Outlaw is definitely a cool product with a lot for the money. How good is it? I don't know. You should find out if they offer a home trial for 30, 60 days or whatever. Then, you can try it risk-free, save some shipping. If you don't like it, I would go the NAD route.

Kex

It seems to me that you're getting a case of option paralysis at this point, but if you want other options, then I would go with this one, at less than $350 shipped to your door for 120w/ch. It has been tried by several Polkies along with the LSi9 and every one of them, to the best of my knowledge, thought it was a stellar unit, which makes it an absolute bargain (but having tried both, I still think NAD is a notch above h/k).

http://www.harmankardon.com/EN-US/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?PID=HK 3490&accT=1&tsT=0&ovT=1
http://www.amazon.com/Harman-Kardon-3490-Performance-Radio-ready/dp/B00198F89A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1273183971&sr=8-1

$500-1000 for whatever NAD is a lot of money, but people still jump on NAD products that are twenty years old, so you could reasonably expect to keep it for twenty years. If you think you might flip it within a year or so, then you should probably not buy it unless you don't mind losing some value.

$600 seems like too much for an Outlaw stereo receiver to me, and I don't think you will be likely to keep it for twenty years, but who knows? I'm sure it will get the job done, and if you think you must have it, then by all means, get it.

$350 is not much for a good stereo receiver with the capability to drive the LSi9, and the harman/kardon Polk Audio match seems to be good one. It even manages to make the Outlaw look ridiculously expensive. If you don't keep it for twenty years, it won't have cost you all that much.

As for the THD question: I think the C.W. is that anything lower than 0.1% is meaningless in real terms (anything below that is considered good, and using differences below that level to compare different units is of no real value).

Zitro

Kex wrote: »

It seems to me that you're getting a case of option paralysis at this point, but if you want other options, then I would go with this one, at less than $350 shipped to your door for 120w/ch. It has been tried by several Polkies along with the LSi9 and every one of them, to the best of my knowledge, thought it was a stellar unit, which makes it an absolute bargain (but having tried both, I still think NAD is a notch above h/k).

http://www.harmankardon.com/EN-US/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?PID=HK 3490&accT=1&tsT=0&ovT=1
http://www.amazon.com/Harman-Kardon-3490-Performance-Radio-ready/dp/B00198F89A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1273183971&sr=8-1

$500-1000 for whatever NAD is a lot of money, but people still jump on NAD products that are twenty years old, so you could reasonably expect to keep it for twenty years. If you think you might flip it within a year or so, then you should probably not buy it unless you don't mind losing some value.

$600 seems like too much for an Outlaw stereo receiver to me, and I don't think you will be likely to keep it for twenty years, but who knows? I'm sure it will get the job done, and if you think you must have it, then by all means, get it.

$350 is not much for a good stereo receiver with the capability to drive the LSi9, and the harman/kardon Polk Audio match seems to be good one. It even manages to make the Outlaw look ridiculously expensive. If you don't keep it for twenty years, it won't have cost you all that much.

As for the THD question: I think the C.W. is that anything lower than 0.1% is meaningless in real terms (anything below that is considered good, and using differences below that level to compare different units is of no real value).

Oh wow, great price on that H/K. Definitely worth a look, just out of H/K's reputation. I personally have only heard their A/V's; I'm not a surround guy, but the one's I've heard sounded pretty good.

eddylight

Hey Zitro, my room is slightly larger than yours. But I am gonna need this sytem to cover all music because I do indeed listen to a lot of heavy rock and even hip hop. I need my kickdrums punchy.

I mean, I own a lot of mellower music too and classical, jazz, etc, but let's be real here, a great vast bulk of my collection is progressive rock/metal. These speakers will need some balls. And you don't even listen to that stuff with your Lsi7's, huh? You move to a whole different stereo. Lol. Lsi9 then.

Wow Kex! Thank you for the link to that receiver. I'm about to dive into all that reading on it. Here's my plan, I will get the integrated or receiver last. Because the Outlaw has a 30 day in home demo period and if I decide that's what I wanna do, it makes sense to get that last. If it doesn't impress, I can go another route.

Zitro

eddylight wrote: »

Hey Zitro, my room is slightly larger than yours. But I am gonna need this sytem to cover all music because I do indeed listen to a lot of heavy rock and even hip hop. I need my kickdrums punchy.

I mean, I own a lot of mellower music too and classical, jazz, etc, but let's be real here, a great vast bulk of my collection is progressive rock/metal. These speakers will need some balls. And you don't even listen to that stuff with your Lsi7's, huh? You move to a whole different stereo. Lol. Lsi9 then.

Wow Kex! Thank you for the link to that receiver. I'm about to dive into all that reading on it. Here's my plan, I will get the integrated or receiver last. Because the Outlaw has a 30 day in home demo period and if I decide that's what I wanna do, it makes sense to get that last. If it doesn't impress, I can go another route.

OK, OK, I know you already have tons of options but I came across this and I think it's a cool unit, a lot of stuff for the money like the Outlaw, but from NAD. $399 tuner, dvd/cd player and 50wpc integrated amp all in one box

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=NAL54

I do listen to hip hop/rock on the LSi7's; they are part of my main rig where I do most of my listening. But let's be honest, for hard rock/hip hop at higher volumes, you can't compare any bookshelf to Polk monitor 10's being fed by 200wpc. The LSi7's still do a decent job with it, and are the more "musical" speakers of the two. I'm not sure how much "better' the 9's sound, but if you want all all-purpose speaker I'd imagine the 9's are a better go than the 7's. No matter how good a bookshelf speaker is, I just don't think a single 5 1/4" woofer is going to give you the kick you want w/o a sub in a room bigger than my small one.

eddylight

Well, I've got a few more days before I can make my first purchase. Found a Marantz cd5003 for a stupid price so I'm gonna start there. Going to see if I can find a place around here that has them (7 and 9) so I can take a listen.

I think I'll write the first ever review of a person going from pc speakers to a hifi rig with the Mx-5021 as a (lol) reference system. Haha.

Anyway, if anyone else has some advice I guess I'll post again later as the goods begin to arrive.

This has been a very great forum. Really appreciate it. I came here after trying like mad to post on Audiogon as a new user and getting nothing but "waiting for moderator approval" message. I'm still waiting btw.

Club Polk ftw.

eddylight

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?homesubw&1275842841

Would that be considered a musical sub?

Kex

Zitro wrote: »

... No matter how good a bookshelf speaker is, I just don't think a single 5 1/4" woofer is going to give you the kick you want w/o a sub in a room bigger than my small one.

That's what I'm thinking. He needs at least one sealed subwoofer, but it won't be cheap.

(I do not have the necessary experience to comment on the AudiogoN listing above.)

eddylight

What do you think of this sub? It's a kit, but PartsExpress seems to have a solid reputation, and the Dayton Reference 12" driver sure looks beefy. I could afford to add a second later and have two warranteed subs.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-742

and some performance charts and good pictures : http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Rs1200

Um.

*cough* while we're at it *cough cough*

what do you think of these (they look very nice):

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-951

(hides)

eddylight

http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Usher701


More on the Dayton/Usher 701 kit. They look nice! (hides for bringing up non Polk mains)

cfrizz

Eddy, there is NO rule or law that states that you have to get every component of your system all in one fell swoop. In a perfect world, yes this would be possible. But in the real world it usually isn't.

So instead of trying to cut corners to get the entire system, take your time & get the best that you can within your budget, and what you TRULY want 1 or 2 pieces at a time.

If you WANT an all Polk system, then utilize a bit of patience & wait until you have the money.

In the long run you will have the system you want, without any regrets or buy overs when you aren't happy with what you SETTLED for.

Zitro

cfrizz wrote: »

So instead of trying to cut corners to get the entire system, take your time & get the best that you can within your budget, and what you TRULY want 1 or 2 pieces at a time. In the long run you will have the system you want, without any regrets or buy overs when you aren't happy with what you SETTLED for.

Excellent piece of advice, even though as a newbie its hard to be patient (I'm still fighting this lol).

eddylight

not cutting anything just thinking out loud. I'll be making the first purchase in a few days. Oh and probably that HK refurbed for 270 shipped. Dayton (not titanic the reference) subs anyone?

eddylight

You guys are going to kill me but, well, I've made my final decisions on parts. Based on info taken from here and about a dozen other forums I've joined in the past month. Via threads, PM's to old audiophiles and tech heads. I've put quite a lot of time into this decision and I feel I've come to the right conclusions for my first hifi.

Zaph Audio SR71's (seriously excited about these)
(2) Dayton RS 1200 subs
H/K 3490
Marantz CD 5003.

I'd like to stick around and see what Polk does for their next gen speaker system. But as of now, the very clear winner for my application is gonna be the SR71 (via the Madisound kit, $599 pair) and not the Lsi.

http://zaphaudio.com/SR71.html
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_425&products_id=8306

The RS 1200 kit:
http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Rs1200

Once completed and broken in I'd be willing to meet anyone in Seattle/Bellevue area for a sound off against Lsi's. Would be fun for sure.

Anyway, well, later, and thanks again everyone. I learned a lot!

cnh

Zaph Audio? Never heard of it....but then again, there are a LOT of things I've never heard of--I'm sure some of our illustrious long-time members know all about this!

In any case....Your other options I have heard and I think this looks like a 'plan'

Good Luck with the project...and give us a 'review' when you're done?

cnh

eddylight

Thank you, of course I'll give my impressions. Won't be much of a review as I really am a novice, I've just read a lot on this subject. Anyway, I'm still only slightly hesitant on the subwoofer part but I'm a step or two away from buying those. And I'll likely start with one just to see how I like it. But I'm pretty sure I'm going to like it. I mean it's a small sealed box with a low distortion, high xmax woofer with a decent amount of wattage behind it.

But if I find something neat on Audiogon in the interim, l might adjust the plan on those.

So yeah, I'm really super interested in the SR71's. They have what looks to me like a very nice looking crossover, and by all accounts a very well designed one, as well some pretty nice drivers there inside a very small vented enclosure.

By all accounts they put out a large and impressive soundstage and are capable of clean high spl levels and good midbass despite their small size. The 7" driver is a Seas ER18 reed paper. The tweeter is the Seas Prestige 27dcfc textile dome tweeter. Both are apparently very sweet drivers.

I've read the highs being described as "ethereal" and "crystalline". That sounds cool to me. All the owners just love this thing and talk about it's all day listenability and also importantly for me, their ability to also play well at low volumes.

I'm just really excited to try it out and $600 is a nice price for the kit as certainly a fully built, turnkey model would probably be way the heck out of my range. The enclosures aren't too pretty but there are specs included and I can learn to make my own box later. Google the SR71, there are some pretty sweet build pix out there.

It's just a more intriguing prospect for the money right now than going on an older, you know with all the overhead and everything, commercial device, even as good as it probably is.

I still want to hear a pair of Lsi's and plan to make that happen.

rooftop59

I know you've made up your mind and I will also be VERY interested in reading review as I have been following this thread.

But I will go ahead and make one suggestion - the 12in sealed subwoofer from ED. Its cheaper, better driver, enclosure, similar amp, and you don't have to put in together. You get a discount on two, and often they will extend the discount even if you start with one. Just a thought. Good Luck!

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_138&products_id=681

eddylight

Oh that's funny! I didn't know Elemental Designs did home audio too. People really like their car subs. I remember they came out with a really cool looking flat cone woofer that looked amazing but tore itself apart after some use. But they've consistently advanced since then. I'm gonna take a look at that link, that's a great alternative! Ok, I'll be around eventually.

eddylight

.... just discovered Emotiva. Every board seems to like Emotiva except this one (and honestly, I'm new to buying audio gear but I am very very familiar to the phenomenon of message board forum bandwagons. People who haven't even heard the thing will chime in with a seemingly valid opinion that is nothing but parroting the highest post count. Half the people on message boards are clinically insane so bashing must be taken with a grain of salt or three).

The board I respect the most (DIYaudio.com - some brainy ****'s on this site) has nothing but nice things to say. I mean, those guys build their own amps.

Need another few days to collate. Speakers haven't changed, but I might be doin' all Emotiva on the rest (except subs, they're ugly, apparently that's their 'low' line and their 'high end' subs haven't been revealed yet). I can take an extra week or two if need be. Thinking of going all Emotiva, from the preamp to the amp to the cd player. Might still get a H/K 3490 to start with and just combine it with an Emotiva ERC-1.

Yeah... I lost out on the $200 Marantz cd 5003. Could be a blessing in disguise.

Kex

eddylight wrote: »

... People who haven't even heard the thing will chime in with a seemingly valid opinion that is nothing but parroting the highest post count. ...

Just FYI, I came to my opinions about an Emotiva amplifier and pre/pro I had purchased some time ago after a blind listening test, when I compared it to a harmon/kardon receiver. I only bought it in the first place because, like you, I had read all the rave reviews and all the hype. I was trying to convince myself I liked it and that it was a big improvement, until the blind listening test convinced me that I was throwing my money away, so I didn't keep it.

There were no negative comments whatsoever about Emotiva products on Club Polk at the time. That has certainly changed, but there are also those right here in C.P. (and elsewhere) that recommend Emotiva products without ever having heard them either, sometimes based simply on specifications and price (which is a very flawed measure of a product's true audiophile abilities IMO). If we bought cars with that logic, there would be far more Hyundai Genesis and Kia Amanti on the road, and far fewer Mercedes-Benz and BMW.

None of this means that you should never buy Emotiva, or that you will hate their products, but do your research carefully and read between the lines.

Zitro

Kex wrote: »

If we bought cars with that logic, there would be far more Hyundai Genesis and Kia Amanti on the road, and far fewer Mercedes-Benz and BMW.

The Genesis coupe is a sweet car though lol. Hell, after driving one I want it!

eddylight

well the most useful info I've taken was that the gear may sound a bit bright on speakers that are already considered bright. That's the only real knock I can find. However, as the SR71's are considered laid back and "all day listenable" then I can infer that there shouldn't be a problem. Otherwise, all rational, seemingly credible sources like the gear for the money. The rational, credible people who don't like the Emo (I do hate that moniker) gear, are so because they already own much nicer, more expensive gear.

The gist I get is that they are at least a top five consideration for the money. That said, a five year transferable warrantee and a 40% owners discount on new generation Emotiva gear is a hell of a bait. That and I think they are just gorgeous pieces of equipment.

...I at least want to try the cd player, I'm about to pull the trigger on one. Saw one for $325 shipping inc. but I think it's gone or pending.

All I have to go off really is the incredible build quality (there is a youtube vid of "Lonnie" showing off the hardware with it's seperate power supplies for everything, and apparently very nice DAC's, etc). I don't think I'm going to spend $700 for the amp though, but if I can get a good price I might have to snag it, and then try the preamp too. 300 watts is a hell of a lot of headroom and I only need 80. But if I can't find a good price I'll go ahead and get the Harmon Kardon you suggested. It's still available $270 shipped with a warrantee (refurb). However, an all Emotiva setup would be quite sexy in my room.

The hard part is the guilt of knowing that all that manufacturing is taking place in China and that's the magic behind the price.

... I just realized something. If I wanted to put a big screen on the wall behind the stereo then I need a preamp that also has an HDMI input huh. Oh no I guess I can go HDMI to the TV from the PS3 and then audio out (optical?) from the tv to the preamp of the stereo, right? (yes, I guess my idea of the system is expanding a bit)

Zitro

eddylight wrote: »

The hard part is the guilt of knowing that all that manufacturing is taking place in China and that's the magic behind the price.

That's true with most "budget" hifi equipment. My NAD integrated was built in China in 2004 and has operated flawlessly (knock on wood). A quality brand will build a quality product anywhere; don't let the location scare you.

eddylight

Naw I was thinking about jobs being lost.


Hey Zitro, explain this one too me (flying my noob colors): I have a PS3 and it's connected to my 25" Syncmaster via HDMI. The monitor has an optical out for audio.

So I understand that I need a receiver that has an optical input right? I was thinking of putting up a larger screen like a 52 inch on the wall behind the stereo after I get done putting it all together and it would be neat to lay in bed and also watch movies or whatever in addition to music.

Only the Harmon Kardon receiver has an optical input, pretty sure. What if I ended up getting an Emotiva preamp and receiver or Outlaw RR2150. Don't see an optical input on either of those. Is there an adapter? And if so, will using an adapter sound horrible on a potentially very revealing system like the one I'll end up with?

rooftop59

cant you run your ps3 hdmi out to the monitor, turn off the audio hdmi in the ps3 and then either run optical or stereo straight into the receiver? That's what I have done in the past. But if you are only doing a 2.1 channel system, you do not necessarily need to use any digital out. You could just run hdmi to the monitor and two channel rca to the receiver. The only reason not to do this is if the DACS in the ps3 are crap, which I have no idea about. but if you are not using your ps3 as a cd transport, then I really don't think it will matter all that much since you are not utilizing the surround capabilities.

Peace,
Paul

rooftop59

did you get your new rig going yet? Still curious to hear about the results...