my first hifi system. Input greatly appreciated!

eddylight

Hello everyone.

Upgrading from a set of multimedia speakers that I've been using for years and years. Altec Lansing-MX5021. I had another Altec Lansing Multimedia set before that that I used for years and years. And, well, the system before that one was a, you guessed it, an Altec Lansing multimedia speaker set. Fantastic for what they are, but also inexpensive and therefore more than a few shortcomings.

Never spent money on speakers, always on cd's. I've bought at least 10, and usually more cd's per month over the last six or seven years, and haven't stopped since. It's quite a beautiful site, my little collection.

My requirements for this new system:

2.1 cd music only. Small room (14*16 apartment bedroom). I'm looking for an astonishing quantum leap in performance over my current speakers. Shouldn't be too hard, right? I want my mind... just blown by these new speakers. I want vivid resolution, air, warmth, clarity, power, and punch, lots of punch. I want sub bass that is fast, musical, and adequate, but don't require anything 20hz as I have neighbors.

In fact, a main requirement is that this system play exceptionally well at low to medium volumes where it will spend the bulk of its time, at least for the near future.

I don't have access to any fancy listening rooms, none of my friends have anything fancier than earbuds, so this is where I rely on you to confirm my choices. These selections were made after reading dozens and dozens and dozens of glowing professional and customer reviews:

Polk Lsi 9
NAD 356 bee integrated amplifier
Marantz CD5003
pair of (2) Yamaha YST-SW315 subwoofers.

The reason for the two subs is I've found a fantastic deal on them and I can use two subs not for increased loudness but increased smoothness and less distortion.

On the Polks.. I have a feeling they're perfect. Or do I really just need Lsi 7's?

For the Lsi 9 will the NAD 356 bee suffice? Or... should I get two small NAD 316 bee's and bi-amp the Lsi? Again, I have no experience with this gear. Maybe I should get a Yamaha amp?

Wildcard question: my initial thought was to get a pair of Klipsch Reference RB-61 bookshelfs and a Klipsch Rw-10d subwoofer. How right on was that idea?

Thanks! I plan on purchasing all this stuff this month, so pretty excited first real stereo!

Amherst

The NAD is a good choice.

As far as difference between the LSi7 and LSi9, you may want to head out and listen to both. The 9 is a powerful speaker and requires good power behind it.
The 7 still has stiff power requirements thou maybe not so much as the 9's.
For music after owning the 9's, I would recommend the 7's for your space.

Don't leave out the DSW Micro Pro 1000/2000 sub from Polk from consideration.
A single one of these will adequately fill your space and is very musical.

eddylight

Okay so I guess I Can start with a single NAD 356 bee and add a second one later if needed. Rather than starting with two small 316's. Okay done.

Do you really think Lsi7's would keep me happy long long long term? I mean I won't be using them in this space forever. And I am a fan of good midbass. I won't miss the extra driver in the speaker? The larger cabinet?

Most importantly: will the Lsi 9 perform well in my current space (14*16) at low to medium volumes given an NAD 356?

The Yamaha's I found for a ridiculous price. Again, dozens and dozens and dozens of glowing reviews, over several sites. It would be very hard to talk me out of purchasing this very highly rated new warranteed pair of 10 inch subs.

Thank you!:)

jdhdiggs

I would say that at your budget level, I'd go with the 7's and use the difference in money to upgrade another part of the chain. I'd go 9's if you don't use a sub

eddylight

A few hundred dollars savings between the 7 and the 9 is not a major issue. Just want the best one. But you guys like the 7 huh?

cfrizz

Welcome Eddy.

Since you are thinking long, long term, get the LSI 9's as you originally want. But be warned they do LOVE power & sound thier best when they get it. That goes for the whole LSI line up.

Because you are thinking long term please DON't take the cheap way out. If you can get your hands on some used seperates, that would be the best way to go. You will be much better served with a preamp & a 200wpc (minimum This will ensure you get the best out of the speakers) 2 channel amp.

Look on Audiogon for Nad, Adcom, Parasound, Rotel, Sunfire, B & K, Outlaw, Emotiva.

Polk's DSW line of subs are out of this world. If you can get 2 DSW 400's you would be all set for bass.

cfrizz

My Brother has the 7's. He originally had them paired with Rotel seperates including a 50wpc amp. I gave him my Parasound 1500A 205wpc amp & they really came alive.

While for a small speaker they have good bass, getting a Polk DSW 500 really took a lot of pressure off of them & cleared up the mid range which sounded kind of muddy since it was struggling to prodruce really low notes.

Again since you are thinking long term go with the LSI 9's I think you will be happier that you did.

eddylight

cfrizz wrote: »

Welcome Eddy.

Since you are thinking long, long term, get the LSI 9's as you originally want. But be warned they do LOVE power & sound thier best when they get it. That goes for the whole LSI line up.

Because you are thinking long term please DON't take the cheap way out. If you can get your hands on some used seperates, that would be the best way to go. You will be much better served with a preamp & a 200wpc (minimum This will ensure you get the best out of the speakers) 2 channel amp.

Look on Audiogon for Nad, Adcom, Parasound, Rotel, Sunfire, B & K, Outlaw, Emotiva.

Polk's DSW line of subs are out of this world. If you can get 2 DSW 400's you would be all set for bass.

Excellent. But please explain to me more on the amp issue. So I want a preamp (still fuzzy on the purpose of this device) and an amp rather than two amps?

Should I buy the NAD 356 Bee and some sort of nice preamp, and then add another 356 later? Or some other plan?

Holla at a player.

cfrizz

The preamp is the brains. It's where you plug in the cd player etc., it has the volume control. If you get a powerful enough amplifier, you won't need 2 of them.

Either one of these will take care of your power needs

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1276804833&/Parasound-2250-New-Classic-250
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1275750617&/Parasound-HCA-1500A-205-watt-x

This will take care of the preamp

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1278020597&/B-K-Componets--Ltd.-PT5-Tuner/

eddylight

so I need a seperate preamp too? Swore the NAD has a preamp. Is that what you mean by "a seperate" you mean a seperate preamp and amp?

Benefits?

So biamping is useless if I have enough power with one?

Kex

Eddylight, I haven't seen any 356BEE in the U.S. at this point, so I'm not sure what model you are considering exactly. Perhaps you meant the C326BEE? In any case, IMO, you can play the LSi9 with any NAD integrated all day long: it will never clip IME. Will it be your best choice? Will adding any external amplifier rated 200w/ch make a significant difference? Nobody can say for sure because everyone has their own tastes and some of us here consider that all watts are not created equal.

Some prefer a NAD integrated with good clean power at a mere 50w/ch rating to many separate amplifiers rated at 200w/ch. I've never known a NAD to lack power, and have never heard one clip either, even when driving a difficult load (speakers with an ohms rating of less than 6 ohms and low sensitivity/efficiency ... below 87dB for example). Either way, nothing will stop you from trying out the NAD with an external amplifier at some point and deciding for yourself if you prefer it to the integrated amplifier section of the NAD.

C326BEE: http://www.spearitsound.com/nad/C326BEE.asp
C355BEE: http://www.spearitsound.com/nad/C355.asp

For music, I would certainly prefer the LSi9 instead of the LSi7, because for my taste, the lower the -3dB frequency range of the speaker the better (within reason, that is: a speaker is not a subwoofer). The subwoofer is again something that some will say you should have, even for music and others will say not (except for movies and LFE). If you decide you do need a subwoofer output, then this model may be worth considering also:

C725BEE: http://www.spearitsound.com/nad/C725Bee.asp

For low volume levels, and a musical priority, you may actually want to try something with tubes IMO, in which case, a tubed pre with a solid state amplifier may be another interesting option to explore. I only have limited experience with that option, so I won't suggest any models ... and that's a whole other discussion, so you might end up with options paralysis if you go down that road!

Welcome to C.P. BTW!

eddylight

thank you for that but can you please clarify the following:

Kex wrote: »

Either way, nothing will stop you from trying out the NAD with an external amplifier at some point and deciding for yourself if you prefer it to the integrated amplifier section of the NAD.

And also confirm whether I need a seperate preamp or will an integrated amp alone suffice?

cfrizz

eddylight wrote: »

thank you for that but can you please clarify the following:




And also confirm whether I need a seperate preamp or will an integrated amp alone suffice?

You can choose one or the other Eddy. Kex swears by integrated amps. I swear by seperate preamp with a seperate more powerful amplifier to cover all the bases with any kind of speaker. But especially power hungry ones like the LSI series. I would rather have it and not need it. But there is also the fact that you will have greater clarity with more power than what an integrated can deliver.

The integrated amps listed have the preamp outputs available to add seperate amplification.

Kex

cfrizz wrote: »

... But there is also the fact that you will have greater clarity with more power than what an integrated can deliver. ...

YMMV ... IMHO.

Yes, any integrated can be used as a pre-amp. The way NAD does this is by adding a jumper on the rear of the unit that forms the connection between the pre-amp stage and the amplifier section. If you remove that jumper (for both channels), you can either:

1) Connect the pre-amp section to an external, separate amplifer, such as the NAD C275BEE (or any other two channel amplifier for that matter).
2) Connect an external pre-amp to the amplifier section of the NAD, which would bypass the integrated pre-amp section of the unit.

Option (2) above would not be very common IMO, but it would allow you to compare the pre-amp section of the NAD integrated to any other separate pre-amp to determine which you thought was the best.

As for the subwoofer, there are two ways to connect one:

1) Using the LFE connection, which requires a single RCA type cable (the same as the double ones used to connect left and right audio channels normally, such as those included with most CD players). This then uses an internal crossover, that determines what signal gets sent to the subwoofer and what signal gets sent to the speakers (80Hz would be a normal crossover point).

This is what surround sound receivers use also, BTW, so that the full benefit of the Low Frequency Effects signal in movies can be used for the reproduction of special effects and explosions etc. by the subwoofer. Speakers are not really able to reproduce such low frequencies with as much effect (there may be exceptions, but none that I have heard).

2) Using speaker wire and the speaker connections on the subwoofer. In this case, the subwoofer itself must manage the crossover frequency, and then send the signal to the two main speakers. The speakers would no longer be connected directly to the amplifier/receiver/integrated in this case. For a long time, this was often described here as the "Polk method", since Polk Audio usually recommended it in their subwoofer manuals.

You can use method (2) with just about any amplifier or receiver, since a specific subwoofer output is NOT required in this case. Some might argue that this is also a better way for music, but few (if any) would argue that it is the best solution for movies. I haven't tried it, so I won't offer an opinion.

Kex

I had a look at your suggested subwoofer choice, BTW. I haven't heard them, of course, which is the only real way to judge, but I don't think I would bother if I were you:

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=200489&CTID=5003300&ATRID=1020&DETYP=ATTRIBUTE

EDUBAG

Eddy,

it has been my experience that when it comes to audio gear there are many many different approaxhes to reach the level of sound quality a person is seeking.

I would recommend getting the 325bee or 326bee, trying them like they come (integrated) with the speakers you choose, if you feel that the speakers can get better sound with more power, meaning you do not feel the 325/326 is not strong enough, then get an external amp and only use the "pre" stage of the 325/326. If you decide to get an external amp i would suggest t stay with nad, the c372 is rated at 150 wpc and is very appreciated around here, also a los of people like, adcom, carver, b&k, and rotel.

If you want to experiment another road the get an integrated hybrid, that is a tube preamp with a solid state amp section. I think the jolida 1501 might be a good choice and it is rated at 100 wpc.

I hope that this gives you an idea of all the choices that can be made, but at the end of the day it is your ears that will decide, since everybodys taste is different.

Good luck and keep us updated on your choices.

Kex

EDUBAG wrote: »

... If you want to experiment another road the get an integrated hybrid, that is a tube preamp with a solid state amp section. I think the jolida 1501 might be a good choice and it is rated at 100 wpc. ...

Plenty of sound advice there EDUBAG, IMO, and the above would also have been one of my suggestions earlier, except that I do not think it is rated for 4 ohms, and the LSi 9 that Eddy is considering are known to dip below that ...

http://www.jolida.com/index.php?p=products&category=1&model=28

Used, it can sometimes be found for a bit less than $500 (for the remote controlled vesrion), but rarely so. Usually, the price is $550-650 and above.

Otherwise, I think the C372 you mention is another integrated amplifier. The C375BEE is the current model. The C272 is a separate power amplifier, if that is what you meant to suggest, and the the C275BEE is the current model.

eddylight

Have most definitely learned quite a bit here. Really thankful.

Hey Kex, so when you say:

Kex wrote: »

I had a look at your suggested subwoofer choice, BTW. I haven't heard them, of course, which is the only real way to judge, but I don't think I would bother if I were you:

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=200489&CTID=5003300&ATRID=1020&DETYP=ATTRIBUTE

you mean that the Yamaha's will be fine? I can get a pair for $400 so that's why I want them.

And I think I will settle on the NAD C372 as the amp.

Kex

eddylight wrote: »

Hey Kex, so when you say: ... you mean that the Yamaha's will be fine? ...

No, I mean they probably won't be fine.

The choice of a good subwoofer is difficult for movies, and impossibly difficult for music. Some prefer not to use one at all for music. Anything under $500 is probably marginal at best, when it comes to the latter, and Yamaha does not have any recognition when it comes to subwoofers AFIK. In any case, I'm not sure if I could justify any subwoofer that cannot dip below 30Hz (-3dB limit), but I don't have a huge amount of experience with them.

What type of music do you like to listen to? Some music is more forgiving of a sloppy subwoofer. I mostly don't use my sealed subwoofer (which I would NOT describe as sloppy, BTW) for two channel listening. Then again, it's hooked up via LFE, not via the speaker connections. Perhaps the result would be better if I changed that.

Ricardo

It is too bad you can't listen to both the 7 & 9's. Bigger not necessarily means better, and for music the 7's are wonderful speakers. Some prefer them over the 9's. Paired with a good musical sub, you can have a dream system with them. And they are easier to drive (not that they don't like/need decent power, but easier than the 9's).

be83663

I would consider upgrading to NAD C 375BEE, which is an integrated stereo amplifier, and not worry about getting a separate amplifier and a pre-amplifier.
Compared to NAD C 355BEE, 375 has twice as much power and, most importantly, half the THD of 0.009%. In my opinion, the 375 will be sufficient to power and a better choice for the LSi9's for the stereo music. Oh, it is also about $400 more than the 355BEE, by the way.

be83663

Also, being a Velodyne fan, I recommend to anyone to go Digital when it comes to a subwoofer. The Velodyne DLS-3500R, for $400 each, might be a little more than the Yamaha that you said you found a great deal of, but the Velodyne 3500R with its Digital Sound Processing (DSP) will give you a cleaner and a tighter bass that will go well along with the stereo music listening, especially if used as a pair with a pair of LSi9s.
http://www.velodyne.com/vproducts/docs/DLS-R%20brochure_lowres.pdf

eddylight

Kex wrote: »

No, I mean they probably won't be fine.

The choice of a good subwoofer is difficult for movies, and impossibly difficult for music. Some prefer not to use one at all for music. Anything under $500 is probably marginal at best, when it comes to the latter, and Yamaha does not have any recognition when it comes to subwoofers AFIK. In any case, I'm not sure if I could justify any subwoofer that cannot dip below 30Hz (-3dB limit), but I don't have a huge amount of experience with them.

What type of music do you like to listen to? Some music is more forgiving of a sloppy subwoofer. I mostly don't use my sealed subwoofer (which I would NOT describe as sloppy, BTW) for two channel listening. Then again, it's hooked up via LFE, not via the speaker connections. Perhaps the result would be better if I changed that.

I read up quite a bit on subs the last few weeks, and every sub I checked in on, I read between the lines (but often didn't have to) for any sort of a clue as to whether the sub performs well with music.

The consensus (both professional and customer) on this particular sub is that it is extremely musical and is basically the steal of the century for the money.

However I've been following user Dkg999 and hounding him (or her) about his unorthodox subwoofer installation. Apparently he too lives in an apartment but runs two very large subwoofers. The advice he was given (by SVS, apparently) was that in a small apartment room he should run two large subwoofers across corners and set in phase so that they I guess cancel each other, and then he has them decoupled in some unique way from the floor. Says he gets no complaints. Says it's about moving air when it's a low listening volume.

So maybe a Velodyne or something and then add a second one in short order. I notice there are often subwoofer pairs for sale on Audiogon.

Then again, the two yamahas will likely suffice. They're only going to cover a narrow range as I should expect down the Lsi9 to go somewhat low.

eddylight

be83663 wrote: »

I would consider upgrading to NAD C 375BEE, which is an integrated stereo amplifier, and not worry about getting a separate amplifier and a pre-amplifier.
Compared to NAD C 355BEE, 375 has twice as much power and, most importantly, half the THD of 0.009%. In my opinion, the 375 will be sufficient to power and a better choice for the LSi9's for the stereo music. Oh, it is also about $400 more than the 355BEE, by the way.

It does sound like a nice amp that I could pretty much use to power anything, should I want to eventually upgrade from the Lsi9. I mean, it seems to put out quite a lot of power.

eddylight

Ricardo wrote: »

It is too bad you can't listen to both the 7 & 9's. Bigger not necessarily means better, and for music the 7's are wonderful speakers. Some prefer them over the 9's. Paired with a good musical sub, you can have a dream system with them. And they are easier to drive (not that they don't like/need decent power, but easier than the 9's).

Can you describe the 7's a bit better? Where are they lacking compared to the 9? And how might they be better?

Zitro

Being an owner of the LSi7's and a NAD C320BEE, I will tell you NAD will push those LSi7's just fine. It takes a heavy turn of the volume knob to make the NAD heat up with the 4 ohm load. They are the least demanding speakers in the LSi series, and a 50wpc NAD is a powerful 50 watts. Reserve current is key, and NAD amps always have plenty to spare. I would stick with an integrated to start with; you could always use it as a preamp if you decide to go the separate route later. Of course, the more power, the better; it all depends on how much you want to spend on an amp. I've never heard this receiver (or any other Outlaw product), but I like the idea and the price for a starter unit.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html

I won't chime in on subs because I know little about them and prefer not to use them because of the difficulty with room integration, but good luck!

cnh

I have to agree here. I'm thinking of upgrading to a pair of LSI-7s and a NAD integrated for 2 channel Home Office (probably forgo a sub for now--and see how it 'feels')--at least that combo is on the short list. Probably go with a NAD C355BEE--plenty of POWER to handle the 7s. As said above even the 320 will do the job. NADs have Fantastic headroom....huge power reserves for those dynamic music peaks.

cnh

eddylight

Yeah but wow that Outlaw receiver sure seems packed with goodies for a resonable price and 160 watts @ 4ohms.


Thoughts on this one guys? I've been pretty set with the idea of running an NAD unit but this other one looks appealing as well.

eddylight

Geez. Stereophile and Goodsound and one other guy had nothing but nice things to say about the Outlaw receiver. It may very well be what will drive my lsi's.

be83663

I am using an Outlaw amplifier for my home theatre setup, their Model 7700 7-Channel Balanced amplifier. As they are internet-based company, they can sell theirs at significantly reduced prices compared to companies that rely on dealers. Specification-wise, Outlaw amplifiers have a comparable THD, if not lower, while giving more watts or power, at a price that is half of its competitors.

But in your case, if you spend $600 more, NAD C 375BEE will give you about the same 150 watts at 4-ohms with three times less THD, 0.009%, than the $700 Outlaw Stereo Amplifier.

Willow

These would work if he still has them

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98866