This is sad
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Some of the other complaints I'm reading simply don't hold water.
Receivers with pre-outs being recommended ? Seriously, that's a complaint ?
I must have missed that? Did someone complain about that advice?
I'm also not buying the HT aspect of being 2nd Fiddle to 2 channel. While many here certainly prefer a good 2 channel system, the forum is loaded with HT advice, systems, support, graphs, pics.....just tons of information.....and guess what speaker brand is at the forefront of those discussions ?
I definitely agree with this. Years ago, audio set-ups with no video interface were the norm but not anymore. Now it's the other way around. Fewer consumers are purchasing home audio equipment purely to listen to music. There are plenty of people on here who are into HT. Most want a system that can do both as well as possible within their budget.
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The average person that likes good sound, even many audiophiles, do not even care about all the "expensive wires", and does not want to be bashed for not wanting to get expensive separates or disagreeing about needing those wires or cables.
That is why every cable or wire thread turns into a silly bash fest.
If some of you like some uber expensive "out there" stuff, fine. But just do not expect everyone else to share the same view or think it is a good idea.
Also and this may be crucial. I see good effort to welcome new people, until they disagree wtih "Advice or opinions" being given.
The overall vibe seems to be "Helpful", but do not disagree with us.
But fortunately overall there are many great people, but the bad seeds bring the place down a lot.
It's amazing how wrong and out of touch a person can be, but you make it look easy.
Says the guy that started this thread.......Ironic!
Yeah, it started a conversation, some good ideas have been shared and Polk addressed the collective, even asked for suggestions. You on the other hand have done your usual moan and beeotch routine.
You've been trying to change things around here since day one with no success. A wise person would realize they failed because this place works perfectly the way things are. Quit trying to rock the boat, it doesn't need or want your kind of help.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I'll make a suggestion. The 3 of you malcontents, km, gate and the reindeer start your own forum, which you can run the way you see fit. I wish you good luck.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
...
Yeah, it started a conversation, some good ideas have been shared and Polk addressed the collective, even asked for suggestions. You on the other hand have done your usual moan and beeotch routine.
You've been trying to change things around here since day one with no success. A wise person would realize they failed because this place works perfectly the way things are. Quit trying to rock the boat, it doesn't need or want your kind of help.
(emphasis added)
I would opine that the emboldened comment shows a "best practice"
approach to addressing an issue (and, FWIW, I concur wholeheartedly).
Some of the other shenanigans in this particular thread -- do not [represent "best practices"].
Folks on on-line forums have been getting ever more... brittle, especially in the last couple of years (it seems to me). This effect, e.g., has - sadly - run another of my longstanding favorite hifi forums completely into the ground.
I do hope it doesn't happen here, as well.
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"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything."
George Bernard Shaw
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......Gatecrasher wrote: »"Progress is impossible"
If you don't actually try or experience things yourself
2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »I'll make a suggestion. The 3 of you malcontents, km, gate and the reindeer start your own forum, which you can run the way you see fit. I wish you good luck.
Obviously, he only wants people at the forum that put up with his bad behavior and agree with him. Obviously, he tries to run off anyone else from this forum. I'm still waiting for this man to post a substantive reply where he provides evidence for and defends the thread he started and where he actually behaves as a mature person and interacts in dialogue with people of differing opinions. I have made several reasoned responses to the thread he started and have only got snarky remarks and name calling in return.
It is sad that the way he has treated so many others besides K_M, Gatecrasher, and myself has been going on for so long.
We are all Polk Audio product owners and we are here to stay. If you cannot deal with people of differing opinions, too bad, and too sad for you.
Yet your passive aggressive shots are so helpful.
Epic fail -
DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »I'll make a suggestion. The 3 of you malcontents, km, gate and the reindeer start your own forum, which you can run the way you see fit. I wish you good luck.
Obviously, he only wants people at the forum that put up with his bad behavior and agree with him. Obviously, he tries to run off anyone else from this forum. I'm still waiting for this man to post a substantive reply where he provides evidence for and defends the thread he started and where he actually behaves as a mature person and interacts in dialogue with people of differing opinions. I have made several reasoned responses to the thread he started and have only got snarky remarks and name calling in return.
It is sad that the way he has treated so many others besides K_M, Gatecrasher, and myself has been going on for so long.
We are all Polk Audio product owners and we are here to stay. If you cannot deal with people of differing opinions, too bad, and too sad for you.
There will never be total agreement on any audio forum.
That is normal.
But telling people to leave, calling them trolls, and name calling, Basically falling back on L.C.D. tactics tends to hurt one's credibility immensely, not bolster it. -
I'll make a suggestion. The 3 of you malcontents, km, gate and the reindeer start your own forum, which you can run the way you see fit. I wish you good luck.
I'm not the one trying to run things around here. You are. As far anyone can see you are the only malcontent. It's your way or the highway. Zero tolerance for anyone else's opinion and zero respect for anyone who isn't in your little clique.
And who the heck are you to tell anyone what to do on this forum? You aren't "jack". You're just another member like the rest of us.
The shame is you can be OK from time to time when you want to be. Everyone on here isn't out to get you or change "your" forum.
The only thing that needs changing is staring you in the mirror.
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Hey Tony,
It looks like I called it right on the money, but naturally I was told that I was being negative.
The plain truth of the matter is that a good many of us are way beyond Polks target audience and demographic, and the advice we give on here shows that.
There are many on here who are JUST into two channel, or into tubes, vinyl, and SDAs, which is most likely not what a new customer is looking for advice on.
Yes we usually recommend improvements to their systems that will save them money later on down the road, but most are not interested, or maybe working on much smaller budgets, or simply don't have the patience to wait to save more money to put a better ie more expensive system together. They want what they want now.
Many of you have forgotten how you were when you first started out, and are teaching from experience. But to a newbie just starting out, it's already an intimidating process, and coming on here can make it terrifying. Especially if some get their noses bent out of shape and then become condescending and rude.
I have said time and time again, that the MAJORITY of people just want a good system that works, and sounds good without making themselves bankrupt in the process. A good chunk of the info offered on here might not achieve that.
That doesn't mean it's not good info, but if it isn't what the person is looking for and it scares them off, then it isn't doing much good except preaching to the choir.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »DarqueKnight wrote: »I can understand why they did it. We are more of a "What speakers, gear should I get?" Rather than a "How do I set up my gear kind of a board."
I partially agree. This forum offers a lot of setup advice, but it is heavily oriented toward audiophile two channel systems, which the majority of Polk's customers are not interested in.
Conversely, a home theater built around a receiver is not a system most of the active members of this board are interested in.
How many times has someone stopped here asking for advice on receivers and they get twenty recommendations for a separate amp and preamp or a receiver with pre-outs for future upgrading at the very least?
So yeah, I would understand why an ad advising people to research the right receiver would not point to this forum.
These comments are the main reason I would send someone new to home theater and 2 channel audio to either the Emotiva or the Audioholics website/forums and not this forum.
If you are looking for "under $200" RCA cables to go along with your $700 speaker wires, $2,000 Benchmark DAC, $1,200 pre-amp, etc. etc. the Audiogon forum s/b the place to go for advice, and not the Polk Forum. The Polk Forum s/b the home to people that are mid-fi enthusiasts that love Polk's mid-fi products, but it often is not.
People that buy Polk speakers also buy $10 to $20 dollar RCA double shielded cables made by MediaBridge or KabelDirekt and $40 dollar rolls of 12 gauge OFC speaker wire at Amazon. These are the kind of products that are appropriate for and within the budget of the vast majority of those that buy Polk speakers.
When I mentioned the MediaBridge OFC wire, one of the comments made about it at this forum was to call it garbage. At Audioholics and Emotiva forums, Blue Jeans Cable are high end and too expensive for many. MediaBridge and KabelDirekt are value products that many have used and recommend, not $200 RCA calbes or $700 speaker wire. And guess what? My system has MediaBridge wire and KabelDirekt and MediaBridge RCA cords and it sounds fantastic. I've done 2.1 channel stereo using a Yamaha receiver and Polk RTI A5 speakers for well under a $1,000 (I know, receivers are garbage -both two channel and AVRs!). I also have a fantastic sounding USB DAC (the HiFiMe Sabre 9018) that cost $80, not $800 nor $8,000.
Can you put together a 2.1 channel stereo setup using Polk Products for under $1,000? How about a 5.1 channel home theater set-up for $1,200 to $3,000? People at the Audiohoics and Emotiva forums can and are doing these kind of set-ups.
I would respectfully disagree with that highlighted statement. Also, one of our forums motto's has always been "good sound can be had with any sized wallet". Been that way since day one. We've put together Polk systems for 500 bucks, even less, that would give you good sound.
Reason being is, we have many members brought up through the ranks of Polk products over the years. They have good insight to what works well with what. We like to call that "experience".
Maybe we might travel in different audio circles, but all of us started somewhere or have been where some are currently at. Nobody I know spends 1000 bucks or more on speakers and looks to buy 10 buck cables to hook them up. That would be akin to putting fiberglass tires on a Corvette....and using 87 octane gas in the tank. Then complaining it's Chevy's fault when the car doesn't perform as it should.
Good sound is certainly subjective, your good sound could be horrible to me or visa versa. There simply is no one size fits all things in audio and to proclaim media bridge cables is all Polk customers need for their products is doing just that. They may work for you, rock on, but to suggest everyone should be satisfied with them ?
The novice don't look at audio like the money pit it can be, nor do they know all the options available to them. Most don't care either, they just want sound, good sound, cheap as possible. Heck, don't we all ? Reality though is a bummer sometimes. The novice believe that only speakers are the determining factor to good sound. Hard to convince them that everything in the chain matters....because they have little to no experience with anything, especially anything outside of what a big box store sells. It's that very lack of experience that sometimes turns them off to this forum, because some simply refuse to accept either that they don't know much about audio, or what is being preached is hogwash to them. This is where the contention starts, between those who have decades of experience in audio, or just the Polk brand, and those who do not.
We at least try to be informative, while being helpful, to any budget for a given system and needs. We do that while having some fun too, nobody likes a forum resembling a funeral home. Unfortunately in this thin skinned world of everything being offensive, internet chatter can and often does get taken out of context or misunderstood meaning. Certainly not always the case though.
I'm not one to turn a blind eye either, we can certainly improve on some of our responses, and the tone. One gets what they give though, so keep that in mind.
Audio is played on many levels, many wallet sizes, each has their own products within certain price ranges. Doesn't mean because one can't play on a higher level than others, those levels should never be discussed or discarded as hogwash. I'll never be able to afford Boulder amps like Joey, but I certainly can drool and appreciate what the man has put together.
I for one, appreciate this forum. We have such a range of membership, characters too, that make it enjoyable to visit. Not to mention the vast array of collective knowledge between all walks of life, all levels of audio. To nitpick about this or that is grade school stuff. XYZ is being mean to me....so handle it and move on. Somehow I think it isn't going to change your life or send you to a Psychiatrists couch. Take it to PM's, is all I ask, so the rest of us don't have to be involved. Unless it's highly entertaining.
Good comedy is hard to come by these days. HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Forum members, thank you for your input. We will be getting together with a few of you very soon. If others have questions they want answered or addressed either tag me in a post or email me directly at ken.carter@soundunited.com
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Nobody here as EVER said that you have to spend "$$$$$" for your system to sound good.
What I have seen, expect "x" or "Y" result if you chose X or Y products. Many here educate and speak from experience and allow people to chose their audio products; like an adult.
We are LUCKY to have people from all levels on this forum and many of them contribute. You have people on here with speakers that cost more than many people's cars that will happily give advice on a $200 speaker purchase. Guess what they are not doing, talking down about it.
As others have said, some of the most common suggested wires and interconnects on here are BJ cables, Signal, Canare, and Douglas Connection.
All of them will give you good sound. But many of us CHOSE to refine and experiment. We move on, we invest. I get itchy when I have something in my system for too long. I actually just passed on a killer deal of Totem speakers simply because I've already heard enough Totem and I need to move onto something else. I love Totem, but I just need something else before I move in another Totem speaker...
That's me, and many of us on here are like that. However, we also understand that many of us are coming from a different direction. We make suggestions and offer advice, based on experience, since an educated decision is a better decision.
The only thing that I'v seen on here from the members you guys like to complain about, don't comment and judge something that you have not tried and given a chance.
Heck, many awesome members on here have organized IN HOME TRIALS for Polk members for several products!
EVERYTIME I've seen someone come into a discussion and say something to the effect of "I've tried/heard it, it was not for me. I felt it was ______." It has been well received.
But if someone walks into a conversation with an attitude of, "I can't believe people spend money on it, it's pointless/a waste and here is some graph/article I found online". It's not going to end well.
I've had F1 tell me to "go f*** myself (in a round about way), I was not offended or upset. It's an internet comment, nothing personal. I don't take any offense to it. I'm an adult and I can get into disagreements with other adults and move on. If you can't handle someone being gruff with you, I'm sorry you were not prepared for real life; with real people.
The members you're upset with treat people like adults and try to provide some form of education to other members with questions. Treating consumers like they can't make an adult decision and "it's all just too much" is a joke. -
Gatecrasher wrote: »I'll make a suggestion. The 3 of you malcontents, km, gate and the reindeer start your own forum, which you can run the way you see fit. I wish you good luck.
I'm not the one trying to run things around here. You are. As far anyone can see you are the only malcontent. It's your way or the highway. Zero tolerance for anyone else's opinion and zero respect for anyone who isn't in your little clique.
And who the heck are you to tell anyone what to do on this forum? You aren't "jack". You're just another member like the rest of us.
The shame is you can be OK from time to time when you want to be. Everyone on here isn't out to get you or change "your" forum.
The only thing that needs changing is staring you in the mirror.
The amusing part of this is that you think F1 and I agree on everything.
The part that makes it so amusing is I own an Emotiva XPR-5 and think it sounds great. Jesse has made it abundantly clear what he thinks of Emotiva.
I use pro amps in my theater system. Jesse has made his feelings on pro amps abundantly clear.
I enjoy my turntable. Jesse has made his feelings on us vinyl spinners abundantly clear.
You want to know the number one reason why F1nut and I get along?
I don't try to shove my opinions down his throat and he respects me enough to do the same for me.
Maybe if these folks who think Jesse is picking on them would stop trying to shove their views down everyone's throats if they don't agree with them, maybe he wouldn't have to call them out.
Party A asks about subject A.
Party B expresses their opinion of subject A and does so in the manner of "only *YOU* can determine what you like best".
Party C expresses their opinion of subject A based on their agreement with equipment specs, double blind testing, reviews...etc. Then goes on to say that Party B is wrong because party B doesn't use the same testing methodology as party C.
Instead, Party C should inject their opinion (because fact is, that's all any of us are doing even though Raife does so with data to back it up) and then step back, take a breath and realize that neither party B NOR party C has *ALL* of the answers.
It is a matter of perspective. Both sides are stating truths. But only one side is so hung up on being right that they can't see that the other side is right too.
Anyway, I fall somewhere in the middle with a bias towards the "believers". Not because of what I have read or what someone else has said, but because of (and here is the key) *MY OWN EXPERIENCES ON THE SUBJECT*.
K_M, you have been combative since the first day you got here. And you continuously go around sending IMs to try and sway others to your POV.
Gatecrasher, I have nothing against you but the fact that you take everything so personally. You tend to make coherent arguments but if someone disagrees with you, they are wrong and there is no other way to it. Not a good way to win friends and influence people.
DonnerUndBlitzen, you're a shill. You have always been a shill. Your mission here isn't to enlighten anyone but to stir the pot and then play the victim. To be honest, you remind me a lot of Sal. Except with a much lazier spellcheck.
But I haven't made it some personal mission to sway or change any of your minds. That I will leave to you (K_M and DonnerUndBlitzen). I don't need to sway anyone but me, myself and I. I am the one who spends my money on what I want.
(K_M, to your expectation bias, if it was such a powerful influence on us, then the $268,000 speakers that were stunningly beautiful that I heard this weekend should have knocked my socks off. Instead, they were outstandingly BAD. They were harsh, brittle, clinical and not pleasant sounding at all. While the kooky unknown speakers that were set up with mediocre gear at best stole the show for me and sounded amazing...even while I expected nothing more than mediocre from them. Guess my expectation bias is broken...
Also, to your DBT mantra...I tried it this past week. I tried to blindly **** in both bathrooms in the house to see which one I liked best but my wife got angry when I pooped on her desk. Point is, you don't need some off kilter testing methodology to determine what *you* like the best. You just need to open your ears and your mind. You don't even need a Fifty Shades of Grey blindfold from Walmart to do it! Imagine that)."Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
Let's not split hairs, while we might not say you have to spend $$$$$ to have a good system, the fact remains that the recommendations made end up being $$$$$ for some people.
Sometimes people simply get sidetracked, and are so busy making recommendations that weren't asked for that they never get around to answering the question.
I will never forget the time I asked a question probably about an amp, and the whole thread ended up about talking about tuners! I didn't ask about tuners, I wasn't interested in tuners, and nobody with the exception of George Grand answered my question. And even he noted that NOBODY else was talking about or answered my question! I laughed, but really up until George answered my question the whole thing was ridiculous.
If a newbie comes in asking a serious question, instead of wisecracking, or going off on tangents that have nothing to do with what was asked, just be helpful and answer the question. Save your routines for your stint on Comedy Central.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
Gatecrasher wrote: »I'll make a suggestion. The 3 of you malcontents, km, gate and the reindeer start your own forum, which you can run the way you see fit. I wish you good luck.
I'm not the one trying to run things around here. You are. As far anyone can see you are the only malcontent. It's your way or the highway. Zero tolerance for anyone else's opinion and zero respect for anyone who isn't in your little clique.
And who the heck are you to tell anyone what to do on this forum? You aren't "jack". You're just another member like the rest of us.
The shame is you can be OK from time to time when you want to be. Everyone on here isn't out to get you or change "your" forum.
The only thing that needs changing is staring you in the mirror.
I can't wait to address this, but I'm busy right now, so it'll have to wait. This is going to be like shooting fish in a barrel.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Let's not split hairs, while we might not say you have to spend $$$$$ to have a good system, the fact remains that the recommendations made end up being $$$$$ for some people.
Sometimes people simply get sidetracked, and are so busy making recommendations that weren't asked for that they never get around to answering the question.
I will never forget the time I asked a question probably about an amp, and the whole thread ended up about talking about tuners! I didn't ask about tuners, I wasn't interested in tuners, and nobody with the exception of George Grand answered my question. And even he noted that NOBODY else was talking about or answered my question! I laughed, but really up until George answered my question the whole thing was ridiculous.
If a newbie comes in asking a serious question, instead of wisecracking, or going off on tangents that have nothing to do with what was asked, just be helpful and answer the question. Save your routines for your stint on Comedy Central.
I don't consider that the "norm" though.
Usually someone gets a couple of good answers, then the thread turns into an open mic night!
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DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »Well, more name calling, this time by ZLTFUL:
"DonnerUndBlitzen, you're a shill. You have always been a shill. Your mission here isn't to enlighten anyone but to stir the pot and then play the victim. To be honest, you remind me a lot of Sal. Except with a much lazier spellcheck"
has he even posted in this very long thread up to now? I may have a "lazy" spell check but I am not intellectually lazy. Zltful - what is your mission here other than to stir the pot?
I did not read thru his novella length post, only perused it.
Please tell me you see the irony in this post, right? -
"On Audioholics...<insert whatever inane argument you choose to use again>"
You are more apt to point someone to another forum than you are to actually have a discussion. And don't try to take some shaky moral high ground. You are as guilty of the name calling as anyone. Just because you try and hide it behind thinly veiled insults doesn't make you any less guilty. But I admire your attempt at deflection.
In fact, in your very post, you flat out said that my opinion isn't valid. But your repeated posting in this thread somehow makes your opinions more valid than mine?
But thank you for making my point for me.
Just a side note, stating a fact is not name calling. You are a shill. It is like me saying a zebra has stripes or a giraffe has spots."Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
Upstatemax wrote: »DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »Well, more name calling, this time by ZLTFUL:
"DonnerUndBlitzen, you're a shill. You have always been a shill. Your mission here isn't to enlighten anyone but to stir the pot and then play the victim. To be honest, you remind me a lot of Sal. Except with a much lazier spellcheck"
has he even posted in this very long thread up to now? I may have a "lazy" spell check but I am not intellectually lazy. Zltful - what is your mission here other than to stir the pot?
I did not read thru his novella length post, only perused it.
Please tell me you see the irony in this post, right?
It is glaring isn't it, Max?
"Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
I think some of you guys have been doing the same routine for so long, you all have zero idea how you seem to the rest of the forum.
@ZLTFUL.....Your "truth thing was interesting for sure, but pointless.
It does nothing to address the "Jerk Mentality" and Immature behavour of some here.
Or is that something you condone and just go along with?
I see a lot of excuses for bad behavour, but very little acknowledgement of it being wrong. -
Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it is pointless.
The difference is, I am not trying to shove it down your throat as you are wont to do to others."Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
Rest of the forum, or three people?
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DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »Hi Upstatemax
I just got up from a long nap and am a bit slow, that was in part why I perused that post, I read thru most of your posts (almost as long). If you could explain the irony that I should see that would be great. I am feeling terrible right now. I just stumbled on how to make smiles appear and was not trying to be a smart alek by putting a smile above,
I hope all is well,
DuB
What I found Ironic:
You claim to not be intellectually lazy, yet you admit to not actually reading a post yet feel a need to comment on it.
That seems like the definition of intellectually lazy, not bothering to learn about the subject matter, yet you're going to make a decision about it.
Seems like a common theme, and kind of the crux of the conversation around here...
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Max, I believe they call that "Not being able to see the forest for the trees.""Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
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