Wire's too much or not enough
liv4fam
Posts: 311
I have a question about what everyone thinks about wiring.
I know we have been through this a zillion times but I really like to talk about wire since I feel that most of you think wire is all hype.
I see a lot of you own better,signal,AR,monster,kimber,etc.etc....What influences your wire decisions? Cost, performance, looks, easy to find? Do most of you listen to wires prior to purchasing them? How about speaker wires? How do you guys feel about mating the proper wires with the right speakers to improve on there strengths.
I know we have been through this a zillion times but I really like to talk about wire since I feel that most of you think wire is all hype.
I see a lot of you own better,signal,AR,monster,kimber,etc.etc....What influences your wire decisions? Cost, performance, looks, easy to find? Do most of you listen to wires prior to purchasing them? How about speaker wires? How do you guys feel about mating the proper wires with the right speakers to improve on there strengths.
I sense much dishonesty in you...............Sense much fear in you.
Lead you down the dark path they will.
Lead you down the dark path they will.
Post edited by liv4fam on
Comments
HBomb
but i'm with HBombToo, i could never see paying $500 + for interconnects or speaker wire. I'm sure lots of people would argue my point. but on a tight budget... i can't afford it. but i do shop around and do my homework too, i don't just buy something like monster cable.. just because that's all there is and that's what everyone else is using. so it must be good. I also use IXOS cables.. similar to Monster, but a little less expensive.
Oh yeah..i did buy a IXOS 1 meter cable.. to hook up the DVD-a player to the receiver... they were the only ones who were making a 6 RCA to 6 RCA at the time. cost $100
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
Along those lines I'm looking into doing some DIY. I can nail down what I would like to have, get the materials, etc, but time is currently at a premium.
Also I haven't found any store offering to loan out wire/cables. Either they're packaged or on a big spool. Either way, they are less likely to sell an open package or a section that has already been lopped off and terminated. I know I'd be hesitant to pay the same price.
I have come to the conclusion that HT is like a race car. You can make an 11 second car with some time, money, off the shelf parts, some hand tools and attention to detail. To make it into a 10 second car you start to require, specialty parts and tooling, and an excessive amount of time and money. Most people are happy with their daily drivers, some people need better proformance, and yet others need the HUMMER.
Just my 2 cents.....
Hey, I checked out your club site....cool. Brings back fun memories!
I use to run a '74 FJ40 Land Crusier, modified of course, down here in Maryland with a club called MORE4. I noticed that most of your guys are running Jeep's. Does anyone run a FJ40 or were they not imported to Canada? These days I'm into Formula 1..just watching, not driving.
BTW, without trying to start a war, I never met a Jeep that I couldn't out climb.
F1nut
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
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Something like: "Hi-fi is like racing. You can have a $100,000 racecar that goes really fast, but if you want it to go just a tiny bit faster you have to spend another $100,000. Is it worth it?"
I think not. I guess if I was a millionaire I'd buy some of the more expensive cables, but I'm not and probably never will be. So I'll stick with Monster/AR/ and other moderately priced stuff. Yes price is a huge factor, especially since the margain of value seems to decrease as the price goes up.
Mating wire with speakers? C'mon... I can believe mating amps/receivers with speakers, but not wire.
what he means by mating the correct wire with the amp/speaker combo....there is a sonic / tonal finding one might be after.....wire is a way to acomplish this goal......I know it sounds crazy to some...or most.....but , wire has different tonal properities.....for better or worse......I will add my opnion.
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
IMO I really think that wire is almost the most important part of any system simply because if the wire doesn't have the ability to just pass the signal without losing or gaining you will never truely see what your equipment is capable of.
Secondly, I want to address Phuz directly about mating speaker wire.
Everything has to be mated correctly in a system to include Amp to Pre-amp to sources to speakers to moniter and so on.............
I will am going to explain my views on mating with speaker wire since I just recently upgraded my own personal and why.
All wire manufacturers design there wires differently with networks, dielectrics, wire twists, strands, copper vs. aluminum, contacts, solder, blah, blah, blah............................
Well when the wires come out of production they all respond totally different and sound nothing alike.]
Let's take Monster for example since they are a huge and well respected company. MCX pre-mades at 10ft. IMO have a degraded sound quality next to a lot of other manufacturers and they tend to be a little bright in the upper high freqs and have a really loud and boomy kind of bass response that during steady low bass passages seems to hang out and continue to boom because the wire is real slow in the lower frequencies.
Now when you step up to the top-of-the-line in M class the M2.2's you get a whole new wire and sound.
The 2.2's IMO have a much smoother top end not showing any signs of brightness or harshness and the soundstage gets much deeper and cleaner and the Bass has a much quicker response to it without ever being boomy or chesty sounding.
I think the 2.2's present a very natural and pleasing listening experience without ever bringing attention to themselves because they simply do not add or take anything away and just pass the signal as clean and as clear so I get to experience all the sonic characteristics of my equipment.
Moving on IMO Kimber Kable which is also a highly respected cable manufacturer has speaker cables that goes well into the high-end realm for cost and my experience with them has been that they tend to exaggerate the highs and mid-range a little bit. Most people that have a speakers that seemed to be a little too laid back or have a rolled off high range might want to look into kimber as you can breathe some life back into the speaker with a simple wire upgrade
Hence the Mating theory.
Transparent is the same way. They make a very musical sounding speaker wire that I really like and I actually that about upgrading to them but I choose monster because I don't care for how the transparent networks handle bass. I feel that transparent rolls off the low end a little too much so they get a really smooth and warm low end and same thing with the highs are a little rolled off as well but I feel that there mid-range is to DIE for but then again if your speakers would not gain from the rolled off highs and smoothed out lows then you will actually end up taking strengths away from the speakers unless they would benefit from that.
So in the end MATING is very crucial to any system for it to perform it's best including electronics, wire, power(line conditioning), moniter, correct set-up, and placement.
Cost should not influence performance.
Correct balance and Mating will result in a balanced cost to you.
Lead you down the dark path they will.
all joking aside,
It's one part of any system that I feel should also be addressed as carefully as you would your speakers,pre amps,amps,receivers,sources,monitors,etc.
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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Testing
Much harder to do is to get enough information to preserve spatial and timing cues: phase. This is the biggest difference I've found - the ability to correctly portray a soundstage.
Even harder: get the bass extension and the phasing correct.
As far as bucks go: I've had Kimber Select KS-3035's in my systems [$3,500 for a 3m pair last time I checked], and they're blown away by TG Audio cables at a 1/10 of the price. Likewise, Audience cables trounce the Selects.
Bottom line: I don't think you should have to strain so hard you get hemmorhoids to hear a difference between wire. If you do have to listen that hard for a difference, you're probably fooling yourself, and should save your money for something more important. But if you easily hear a difference, and want the best performance, trust your ears and open the wallet, and enjoy your improved system.
A review I wrote
How much youll pay for what you used to get for free
Wire, or the high-end wire market, is largely built on marketing. Sort of like the guys who tell you that you need to spend 10-20 percent of your budget on wire. Who is telling you this? The wire guys that's who. Go to Tweeter and try and get ou the door without hearing 5 sales pitches for Monster wire. Why? That's where the greatest markup is. The high end wire market is a relative newcomer to the audio world. Why? Money. The profit margin in electronics and speakers has shrunk over the years and wire has been the treasure trove of profits for many. This is my opinion, but, it would explain why that for many years, audiophiles used lampcord and thought nothing of it.
Look, I'm not saying that there isn't a difference in wire. I think that the differences are subtle in most cases and that the really expensive wire is sheer lunacy.
BDT
I believe very strongly in wire as I have heard a lot of different companies wires and interconnects and I can tell a noticeable difference almost immediately. I really have become very fond of Transparent interconnects and yes I feel that they are really expensive but worth the money considering the performance gain you get compared to Monster and Straight.
Lampcord?
I'll admit that I used to own lampcord when I was like 15 years old and I had a pair of Technics rattle boxes hooked up to a Panasonic amplifier. And you know what? It was fine for back then but then I got into Radio Shack 14awg and then Monster XP with the little crimp on Pins because almost all speakers had spring clips or screws.
But look at speakers and electronics now. We are in the digital age now and speakers are extremely clean and clear not like the speakers of the past we they we running Tape Decks, Tuners, Cheapy Turntables(not bashing good tables as I still own one), and reel to reel. There was no high resolution sources nothing that demanded sonic purity. Not that I am saying old speakers weren't good it's just that they do not compare to speakers of today. Speakers of yesterday were made to play loud not clean.
It was the digital revolution in our industry that produced high-end speaker wires and interconnects. Audiophiles spoke out that they needed better cabling so the manufacturers responded. That is what pushes our industry forward is Customers feedback and Ideas.
You know I keep my mind open to all new possibilities of wire and I try everything to see what sounds the best. I heard from a friend that 12/2 Romex (electrical cable) was the best sounding speaker wire ever so before I passed judgment on him I went to try it (even though I already knew that it was going to suck) and what I heard was pretty shocking. It sounded completely sick it was the nastiness tingy and whiny sounding crap I have heard with no hint of any bass response. Horrible!!!!
Same thing goes with the Home Depot wire 12 or 14awg. It sounds absolutely horrible. If any wire oxidizes and turns green after the first time you send current through it immediately put it in the trash as it is no good. I challenge anybody to go listen to 12awg Home Depot wire and then compare or better yet side by side to Monster XP or Liberty 16awg bulk wire which is actually cheaper and bet you that either one will sound better for the same price.
Sorry, it sounds like I am preaching..........................
I have learned over the years that the biggest upgrade you can make is in your wiring not the electronics,sources,or speakers.
I think of wires as the veins in your A/V system....................if the signal can't get there the heart of your sytem is going to die!!!!
Lead you down the dark path they will.
I beg to differ. I think you need to brush on your history a little bit. Dismiss the DQ-10, but ML has been building electrostats for a long time. The KLH 9 dates back to the mid-sixties. Ever see a pair of the big Dayton Wrights? Old Maggies? Sources? I think that the vinyl crowd would definately take issue with that. Amplification? The sixties were the heyday of tubes. How about a Marantz 7C preamp. Those things are highly sought after and expensive to this day. You need to hear some of this gear before dismissing it.
GOOD hifi has been around for MANY years and contrary to what you may believe it didn't start with the advent of digital sources.
BDT
Actually, you're quite wrong about this.
The first company to bring high-end wire to the attention of the American audiophile was Polk.
Way back in those crusty old days of analog Japanese audiophiles were enjoying high-end speaker wire and IC's.
Polk was the first company in America to bring high-end wire to the market with an import of a high-end Japanese wire.
Long before "the digital age".
How much youll pay for what you used to get for free
But why? He's an installer and knows everything about everything.
How much youll pay for what you used to get for free
Well, there are a LOT of folks who actually believe that high-end audio started with the proliferation of CD.
BDT
Warning: contains quite a bit of truth and technical detail.
How much youll pay for what you used to get for free
Q: How many members use 18 guage or less on their rigs?
It was apparent to me that Ohm/FT was very different from the 18/24 guage wires compared to the premium brands. It would be interesting to see what 12 guage stranded for a 1$/Ft from the shack would perform under these test conditions.
I tried to find the electrical specs on the Shack cable but could not.... Does any1 have this info by chance?
HBomb
How much youll pay for what you used to get for free
no way can any test blind or not, drunk or something... convice me otherwise.
More money is BLOWN on cable than could be justified?
IMO
with respect
HBomb
Huh? I don't quite follow you here. What am I wanting to demo? Am I just being really dense, even for a guy that likes some high-end wire?
How much youll pay for what you used to get for free
r/w,
is that nessary?If you don't already know.......when people post comments like that,your offending me as well.
Look his opnion is not a fact...it's what he/WE see in the field ...over the years.WE both have worked for high end companies,got the blessed opportuinity to meet alot of different types of Audiophiles.......really cool I feel.
The speaker comments and wires non the less are natural progression in the industry.Most if not all companies try to improve on there technology.The wide rattle box speaker design compared to the sleeker todays style tower design........in our opnion sound a hell of alot better.
I'll go one step further.....2 speakers from Polk costing around the same and you could account for the times.......SDA-2B'S which I owned........and now my LSi 15's........Without a single standout quality the sda2b's get dominated in everyway possible.The SDA-2b's are nice speakers......sound pretty good.But I even perferred my rt1000p's over them in a side by side demo I conducted in my livingroom.My opnion......
If you think wire doesn't make any difference, then don't buy it.Get what you feel is accurate for the rest of the system you spend all that money on.
Liv4fam and I will continue own search and never ending journey to better understanding.I for one wish wire didn't make such an Impact on sound quality....my bank account could use a break....but I lust after every last bit of sound quality I can squeeze out of my rigs....
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
Uhhhhhhh, Dan, I think that you will find that the slim tower design is purely cosmetic. If they sound better to you, obviously, that's fine but the slim cabinet design is a market driven thing. People want slim and unobtrusive speakers. In performance terms, big cabinets (well constructed) have more pros than cons. Think B&W Nautilus 800's, JM Lab Utiopias
Again, I sense that you and your partner feel that if it wasn't built in the last 10 years (or less) than it certainly can't be worth listening to, which is simply not true.
As far as the RT/SDA/LSi comparison, that's your opinion and you are welcome to it. IMO, I think my RTA's, overall dust the RTi series, but we could make these comparisons all day.
BDT
Dan,
The plain fact of the matter is that you and your companion (although he has been far more civil of late) come off like JUST because you installers that you automatically know everything there is to know about audio and that the rest of us are blithering dolts who have no right to hold or express an opinion much less question yours. I say this not to be harsh, I say this because it may help explain (although this isn't the first time this has been said) why folks make the comments that they do.
The fact of the matter is, just because you are installers means little. It doesn't mean that you hear any better or know any more about gear. There are electrical engineers on the forum but they don't claim to know any more than the rest of us about amp design or what have you.
Take it for what it's worth.....
BDT
So I've offended another installer who can't spell, use punctuation properly, and is willing to tell all of us that we don't know what we're talking about.
Wow. Am I going to lose sleep over that, or what?
BTW, I'm not impressed by your lack of credentials. Conserve your keyboard, and stop telling me how long you've thought you were so great.
Oh, and since you addressed your comments to me, you might want to learn how to read. I'm the guy who believes that wire does make a difference. I'm the guy who is a dealer for high-end wire.
But I'm also willing to discuss this topic with others who disagree, and not pound my chest about my vastly superior experience. If what I say/write doesn't make sense on it's own, then no matter how much chest-thumping I do, I haven't helped anybody, including myself, to understand the topic at hand any better.
How much youll pay for what you used to get for free
I'm not going to keep telling you this.I never once said I'm the be all end all because I'm an Installer...If I did,show me.I'll adress it.I'm a hobbiest like you,I love this stuff so I love posting in here as well.Like you I have my own opnions on things.Agree with them or not there my opnions.You have your opnions and are entitled to them.Nevber once did I say you opnions are wrong.There yours...........
When I think B&W N801's I think heavy,beautiful,and the mid and highs are allby them selfs, not in a cabnet.The bottom cabnet is large due to the 15 inch driver.Super good if not one of the very best speakers ever built.I personally love them alot.
Towers,rattle box,panel,whatever,I feel they get better as time goes on.I also think IMO that companies speakers get better and better,not worse.You gotta except that as my opnion and not yours.OK?????
r/w,
show me exactly where I told you or any other member on this forum that they don't know what they are talking about.Show me.
Punctuation,spelling........................so what,I'm not the spellingbee or ever claim to be.Maybe I should hire Russ full time...
My lack of credentials..........whatever.Didn't know you needed your extended list.Care to share so I and the rest of us can benifit from your long history?
Chest thumbing........dude get a life would yeah.
Sorry to tell yeah but I'm also willing to discuss this topic or any other.Also willing to learn.
I'm an Installer and proud of it.I actually love what I do for a living.I post my experience in the field alot so ,so if you can benifit what I get to learn each and everyday.If you feel the need to bash that.....thats your thing.I don't care for it.I don't remember personally attacking you in anyway shape or form.
So your a high end wire dealer......so what.........means little.You do wire everyday?So what could you possibly know anymore then the next guy.......That point isn't one I would like to come across to anyone,not just you,I so happen to be a hobbiest........like most people in this forum.
I got opnions like anyone else.Agree/disagree no comment....all fine and dandy here man.
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
Troy
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.