Bi Amping with a AVR
Comments
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Dan, just let it drop. You are never going to convince them there is any improvement and some seem to be hung up on terminology. I can see several conceptual reasons that you are hearing a difference and you seem to enjoy it more. That should be good enough.
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Dan, just let it drop. You are never going to convince them there is any improvement and some seem to be hung up on terminology. I can see several conceptual reasons that you are hearing a difference and you seem to enjoy it more. That should be good enough.
Agreed.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Head room for what? More dynamics , Louder? Tell me what I'm missing? Because when I listen to 2 channel in my AVR Passive Bi Amp configuration, I have all kinds of dynamic range, All kinds of SPL , I quite well before the Integra DRX 8.4 even remotely runs out of gas so show any strain or signs of weakness.
I really wish you guys knew more about what you're trying to talk about.
Headroom is about the reserves in the amplifier, it's not about loudness/spl's.
How much is left in the amplifier section when driving speakers @ louder listening levels.
Not bashing anyone's receiver but let's face it, a receiver is not a high watt/high current piece.
There may be some manufacturers that claim high current but I believe that's marketing. Some (Reciever's) could be considered high current, by a manufacturer, when compared to lesser receivers but not when compared to a dedicated high watt/high current amplifier.
What speakers are being driven with the receiver?
They work fine with most speakers but, when one tries to push demanding speakers they quickly run out of gas, the reserves (Headroom) just aren't there.
A good test for a receiver would be to see if it could drive a pair of Gen 3 SDA SRS.
They're a 4-ohm speaker and can be a little tuff to drive at louder levels. One needs reserves (Headroom) for speaker's like this.
Have a look at the specs and recommended wattage to drive them.
Forget about trying to drive the larger Kappa's, from Infinity, with a receiver. They'd put a receiver into protection quickly. Lot's of current needed when getting to this level of difficult speakers to drive... and it gets worse.
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A crucial point missing in this entire conversation is current. While virtually any quality AVR can drive 7+ Klipsch speakers to ear-bleeding levels, I know of NO AVR that can drive a pair of Infinity Kappa 9 to even remotely realistic listening levels. Why? It’s physics - High current requires BIG power supplies, numerous output transistors - or tubes. Most AVR amplifier sections limit each amplifier channel to 2-4 output transistors. High current separate amplifiers utilize 8-16 output transistors - per channel. Then theres the power supply - the heart of any solid state amplifier. With few exceptions, AVRs must tap the same power supply for all 7+ amplifier channels (plus all the other functions of the unit).
It helps to think of power (watts) as horsepower, and current as torque. A Camaro LT1 has 455hp and 455lb ft of torque. This is in line with a typical AVR.
A Chevy Duramax diesel however, actually has 10 LESS horsepower at 445, BUT it has 910lb ft of torque - double the Camaro, and at less than HALF the RPM…
Much like amplifiers, one is clearly more capable of handling difficult loads.
All of that said, at the end of the day, it is all about how it sounds to the owner - if it sounds good to you, and you’re happy, then by all means, carry on. But please don’t believe that the amp cards in AVRs are even remotely in the same ballpark as quality stand-alone amplifiers.
“Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn -
I wonder if my car will go faster with two accelerator pedals?
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Oh my!!!!
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skipshot12 wrote: »Head room for what? More dynamics , Louder? Tell me what I'm missing? Because when I listen to 2 channel in my AVR Passive Bi Amp configuration, I have all kinds of dynamic range, All kinds of SPL , I quite well before the Integra DRX 8.4 even remotely runs out of gas so show any strain or signs of weakness.
I really wish you guys knew more about what you're trying to talk about.
Headroom is about the reserves in the amplifier, it's not about loudness/spl's.
How much is left in the amplifier section when driving speakers @ loud listening levels.
Not bashing anyone's receiver but let's face it, a receiver is not a high watt/high current piece.
There may be some manufacturers that claim high current but I believe that's marketing. Some could be considered high current when compared to lesser receivers but not when compared to a dedicated high watt/high current amplifier.
What speakers are being driven with the receiver?
They work fine with most speakers but, when one tries to push demanding speakers they quickly run out of gas, the reserves just aren't there.
A good test for a receiver would be to see if it could drive the less efficient Gen 3 SDA SRS.
They're a 4-ohm speaker and can be a little tuff to drive at louder levels. One needs reserves (Headroom) for speaker's like this.
Forget trying to drive the larger Infinity Kappa's, from Infinity, with a receiver. They'd put a receiver into protection quickly.
Hello,
The speakers you are asking about are Monitor Audio Bronze 300 7g floor standing speakers.
Here are the specs
Power range (watts) 40-150
Sensitivity
88 dB
Impedance (ohms)
8
Frequency response
34-30k Hz
So they are not hard to drive. However , SPL wise they play lower at the same volume setting as my Focal Chorus 826V's. Their specs are
Frequency Response (±3dB): 45Hz – 28kHz
Low Frequency Point (-6dB): 37Hz
Sensitivity (2.83V/1m): 91.5dB
Nominal Impedance: 8 Ohms
Minimum Impedance: 2.9 Ohms @ 118Hz
Recommended Amplifier Power: 40 – 250W
Crossover Frequency: 300Hz / 3000Hz
So the Focals play louder with the same power.
I think since your curious about the amp section of my AVR, you should watch the YouTube video I posted about the Onkyo RZ70 which is a lower end version of my Integr DRX 8.4 BUT it has the same exact amp section, just D rated . it's rated at 140 per channel and mine is rated at 150. I don't think that is actually fully true unless Onkyo backed off the amp in the Onkyo. Either way, it's worth a watch. Gene does an excellent job testing amp output power. It's interesting.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
A crucial point missing in this entire conversation is current. While virtually any quality AVR can drive 7+ Klipsch speakers to ear-bleeding levels, I know of NO AVR that can drive a pair of Infinity Kappa 9 to even remotely realistic listening levels. Why? It’s physics - High current requires BIG power supplies, numerous output transistors - or tubes. Most AVR amplifier sections limit each amplifier channel to 2-4 output transistors. High current separate amplifiers utilize 8-16 output transistors - per channel. Then theres the power supply - the heart of any solid state amplifier. With few exceptions, AVRs must tap the same power supply for all 7+ amplifier channels (plus all the other functions of the unit).
It helps to think of power (watts) as horsepower, and current as torque. A Camaro LT1 has 455hp and 455lb ft of torque. This is in line with a typical AVR.
A Chevy Duramax diesel however, actually has 10 LESS horsepower at 445, BUT it has 910lb ft of torque - double the Camaro, and at less than HALF the RPM…
Much like amplifiers, one is clearly more capable of handling difficult loads.
All of that said, at the end of the day, it is all about how it sounds to the owner - if it sounds good to you, and you’re happy, then by all means, carry on. But please don’t believe that the amp cards in AVRs are even remotely in the same ballpark as quality stand-alone amplifiers.
I hear what you are saying and using HP is right up my alley, I'm a car guy.
Anyway I think you should also go watch the YouTube video I posted here on Gene's test results of the Onkyo RZ 70 which again has the same amp section my Integra DRX8.4 has in it.
I get you guys are trying to dig into the AVR and it's lack of ability compared to others you might have ran into or used. But this one is just a bit different. I think you really should check it out.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I wonder if my car will go faster with two accelerator pedals?
If you know anything about cars, the new Ford Mustang now has 2 intakes on it, 2 throttle bodies and makes more power and goes faster. 2024 model year and up 5.0 engines.
Guess what? It goes faster. 2 is better than 1. You do know women have 2 **** right? I like 2 **** better than 1 boob.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Not bad but... how many channels of amplification are packed in there?
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Spendor used to make speakers with three sets of binding posts on each speaker, one per driver section. They recommended using all of them in a tri-wire configuration. I think it was the SP-100 as well as the SP-200 in their Classic line. Not sure if any other mainstream companies did that for home speakers.
https://www.whathifi.com/spendor/classic-200/review
It's gone in and out of vogue. One of the weirdest things that ever passed through here was an Onkyo stereo receiver that was built to pair with Onkyo 3-way loudspeakers with no internal XO at all.
Come to think of it, I believe I got it from Mr. George Grand -- of the Jersey Grands.
The companion loudspeaker:
https://audio-heritage.jp/ONKYO/speaker/multiac-60.html
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You can lead a horse to water, but...Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
mhardy6647 wrote: »
Not bad but... how many channels of amplification are packed in there?
11Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
The separate power supply to one of my integrated amps weighs almost as much as your entire AVR.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I couldn't find an Onkyo page with specs, but here's a screenshot from Crutchfield.The separate power supply to one of my integrated amps weighs almost as much as your entire AVR.
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-bnwynIKDtHM/p_164DRX84/Integra-DRX-8-4.html
I will give Onkyo this: the heat sinks do appear to be cast and reasonably robust -- not something one see's every day. Still... 11 separate channels and 50 lb (not to mention all of the other stuff in that box... and four fans)...
Wasn't Onkyo the manufacturer that had lots of trouble with their early HDMI AVRs essentially self-immolating due to heat issues? They did seem to get that message... but still, a lot of stuff jammed into one box and running off of one (apparently unventilated) power supply.
source: https://archimago.blogspot.com/2024/10/review-integra-drx-84-multichannel.html
I do note that reviews and whatnot note that this particular receiver is fairly inexpensive for its power capabilities and feature set.
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The separate power supply to one of my integrated amps weighs almost as much as your entire AVR.
The power transformer in my solid state amplifier weighs almost double of that AVR. -
Jesse, that's not a relevant comparison. Didn't you recently say "I don't do HT" or something along that line? If that's the case, you really have no point of reference for this whole conversation.
AVRs have a very firm and rightful place in this hobby. For most people, a good AVR can provide an excellent home theater experience.
Yes, we all know separate amps are better, but honestly, the pre-pros for HT are often a few steps behind in the latest technology, and they are usually overpriced as well.
A good mid-range to high end AVR is more than sufficient to power a 7 or 9 channel system to levels that most consider loud for home use (80-95dB in loud movie scenes). Most speakers do not need more than 40 watts to play at that level assuming you have separate powered subwoofers. An AVR can supply that easily and in many cases, it sounds better than the typical theater experience.
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mhardy6647 wrote: »I do note that reviews and whatnot note that this particular receiver is fairly inexpensive for its power capabilities and feature set.
A comparable Denon is $3800 and a comparable Marantz is $4800. Yamaha Aventage is around the same price. At least feature wise.
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mhardy6647 wrote: »
I couldn't find an Onkyo page with specs, but here's a screenshot from Crutchfield.The separate power supply to one of my integrated amps weighs almost as much as your entire AVR.
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-bnwynIKDtHM/p_164DRX84/Integra-DRX-8-4.html
I will give Onkyo this: the heat sinks do appear to be cast and reasonably robust -- not something one see's every day. Still... 11 separate channels and 50 lb (not to mention all of the other stuff in that box... and four fans)...
Wasn't Onkyo the manufacturer that had lots of trouble with their early HDMI AVRs essentially self-immolating due to heat issues? They did seem to get that message... but still, a lot of stuff jammed into one box and running off of one (apparently unventilated) power supply.
source: https://archimago.blogspot.com/2024/10/review-integra-drx-84-multichannel.html
I do note that reviews and whatnot note that this particular receiver is fairly inexpensive for its power capabilities and feature set.
I gotta admit, it's a pleasure to own. I have owned many flagship AVR's , many separate systems over the decades I have been into this hobby and this Integra does not disappoint me in any way shape or form. It's amazing how good it sounds, it's amazing what it can do.
As far as failures are concerned , It was HDMI / Ethernet boards that heat failed, they were to close to each other and caused a lot of failures. Here's why I respect them. They made everyone whole. They warranted every single one we installed. They earned a high level of respect from me.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
My D*(K is bigger than yours , now WHAT!! Is this where we are at? Why don't both of you just call my equipment junk trash and be done with it. Beat your chest and tell everyone on the forum how superior both of you are with your awesome weight power supplies. While you guys are running around here with measuring sticks, I'll be enjoying my junk trash **** equipment, completey wrong and inferior Bi amped crap British speakers.
Glad we all can get along.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
mhardy6647 wrote: »I do note that reviews and whatnot note that this particular receiver is fairly inexpensive for its power capabilities and feature set.
A comparable Denon is $3800 and a comparable Marantz is $4800. Yamaha Aventage is around the same price. At least feature wise.
With those comparisons, You would be looking at the Denon AVR 4800H or the higher end model AVR-6800H, I picked the DRX8.4 over both of those. I looked at them pretty hard.
Then there is Marantz, sexy as the day is long in the Cinema 50, the Integra kills it. The Cinema 40 is a better compare but I feel the Denon 4800H is the 40's equal in many ways. 125 watts of power by only 9. You have to step up to the Cinema 30 to compare to the Integra DRX8.4 but you're looking at over $1000 more and I feel it's not as good in many ways especially sound quality. Subjective here but I extensively listened to to all these models and came away with Integra. They are all fine choices for various reasons. I'll sell each and everyone of them if the system requires such. For me I like the DRX8.4 better than all of them.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
mhardy6647 wrote: »I do note that reviews and whatnot note that this particular receiver is fairly inexpensive for its power capabilities and feature set.
A comparable Denon is $3800 and a comparable Marantz is $4800. Yamaha Aventage is around the same price. At least feature wise.
exactly.
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AVRs, akin to AM-FM stereo hifi receivers before them, are a study in compromises. Lots of stuff in one box, sharing one power supply. No more and no less to say.
I have no doubt that this is a very good AVR. It serves a purpose, it fills a niche.
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mhardy6647 wrote: »AVRs, akin to AM-FM stereo hifi receivers before them, are a study in compromises. Lots of stuff in one box, sharing one power supply. No more and no less to say.
I have no doubt that this is a very good AVR. It serves a purpose, it fills a niche.
I'd argue that separates fill the niche for obsessive types who pursue that next upgrade instead of just enjoying the media. Receivers and all in one boxes have been the preference for the vast majority of consumers since the days of console TVs. Heck, most now prefer a soundbar to an AVR with separate speakers. -
The DRX8.4 kind of straddles the line between receivers and separates. Reason is it has balanced preamp outputs for the front three channels and two subwoofer channels. Integra wouldn't have put them there if there is no demand for them in the market place.
For owners who do have demanding speaker loads it's most likely the demanding ones will be the front three and not the surrounds or height speakers. The Integra design is smart because it means their dealers can get by without having access to a separate AV processor but can also upsell high-end separate amplification if a buyer wants it. -
mhardy6647 wrote: »AVRs, akin to AM-FM stereo hifi receivers before them, are a study in compromises. Lots of stuff in one box, sharing one power supply. No more and no less to say.
I have no doubt that this is a very good AVR. It serves a purpose, it fills a niche.
I'd argue that separates fill the niche for obsessive types who pursue that next upgrade instead of just enjoying the media. Receivers and all in one boxes have been the preference for the vast majority of consumers since the days of console TVs. Heck, most now prefer a soundbar to an AVR with separate speakers.
So just listen to music on your Alexa -
I don't see what's such a big deal here. We're just discussing the 2 channel performance of Dan's beast of a Integra AVR. It has power out the wazoo, plenty of current & headroom to drive his new speakers to ear splitting levels without breaking a sweat.
Now as far as the bi-amping goes, why not give it a shot. The AVR is set up for it. Dan has a lot of unused cables so no extra cost to him. Hook it up & let your ears be the judge. It already sounds like he has experienced some positive results. It looks like it was a fun experiment that delivered positive results. Sounds good to me.
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The DRX8.4 kind of straddles the line between receivers and separates. Reason is it has balanced preamp outputs for the front three channels and two subwoofer channels. Integra wouldn't have put them there if there is no demand for them in the market place.
For owners who do have demanding speaker loads it's most likely the demanding ones will be the front three and not the surrounds or height speakers. The Integra design is smart because it means their dealers can get by without having access to a separate AV processor but can also upsell high-end separate amplification if a buyer wants it.
If someone needed more power than what the Integra and offer for the front 3, Yes it has both Balanced connections which is pretty unique in any AVR made and also both Sub 1 and Sub 2 outputs so that is also very unique.
I have setup many Theater rooms Family Rooms and even media rooms, none of the rooms I have worked in required more power than that the Integra can bring. Now this also greatly depends on the speaker array. if your trying to push a full panel Martin Logan system or Maggies, yeah your going to need external amps especially for the front 3. Again a very awesome and unique feature set this aVR brings to the market.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Gustard X26 Pro DAC
Belles 21A Pre Upgraded with Mundorf Supremes
B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
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Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)
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