System Advice Requested

So, a guy I know had a pair of GoldenEar 2's IIRC, and he wasn't all that happy with them. He says, "They are very clean and true. Nonetheless, I couldn't quite find a sweet spot." He has now gone to a pair of Martin Logan Classic ESL 9 electrostatics, and says he likes the bass better on the ML's and he loves the mids and highs. He has a Belles 150 amp and a Prima Luna Prologue preamp, ProJect RPM 9.2 Evolution Turntable with a Sumiko Blue Point Evo II cart, Vincent PHO-701 phono stage, Marantz CD 6006, and a Yaquin tube buffer. He said he purchased the buffer because he perceived highs as harsher on CDs. He has top shelf tubes in the preamp and phono amp.

He asked if it would sense to upgrade his amp? He has a budget of 2K? I told him that Belles amps are well regarded around here but I thought I'd throw this out as a question to y'all. Perhaps people have suggestions for improvement in areas of his system other than the amp if he has 2K budget ? What would be the most bang for the buck? Are there upgrades to the Belles that can be done that would be a dramatic improvement or would going to a higher level Belles amp be advisable? All thoughts are appreciated. He has not identified any specific areas that he is dissatisfied with in his system and I don't know if he just has the upgrade bug or what, but he wants to improve his system in the most cost effective manner possible. Thanks.

Comments

  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,862
    He should not need a tube buffer if he has a tube preamp.
    What tubes are in the preamp?
    What cables are in the system?
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Puritan PSM156
  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,346
    A DSD capable DAC/music streamer would be on my list.
  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 9,969
    marvda1 wrote: »
    He should not need a tube buffer if he has a tube preamp.
    What tubes are in the preamp?
    What cables are in the system?

    He has some 1958 or '59 Valvo Hamburg ECC82 long plate slant O getter in the preamp, I think he just switched out the rectifier but not sure what it is. I will ask about the cables in the system but that is an excellent point.

    As far as the Belles 150 amp, is it fair to say that's a capable amp that would not be on the high end for replacement?

    Emlyn: do you have any suggestions on a DAC/music streamer that would be in the $1K or under area, assuming he needs better cabling which I bet is the case?
  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,346
    The Bluesound Node 2i is pretty popular as a starter point well under $1K. No DSD but it does support MQA from Tidal, and it's main virtue is getting a good foot in the door for network streaming.
  • rooftop59
    rooftop59 Posts: 7,952
    If you keep an eye on Cambridge’s eBay site you can snag either a CXN V2 or an 851n streamer for under a grand refurbished. I am about to have the latter for sale in silver...
    Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es; Squeezebox Touch with Bolder Power Supply
    Game Room 5.1.4:
    Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra

    Bedroom 2.1
    Cambridge Azur 551r; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer
  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 2,987
    Don't forget about power management. A good cord for his amp directly into the wall (maybe upgrade the outlet), a conditioner or regenerator for peripherals, good cords for those. That might remove some of the hash noise.
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,288
    Your friend is not the first person I know that has had good luck putting a tube buffer on a cd player. What is his main source? If it is more cd \ digital, I would suggest changing the dac to something like a Marv suggested Musical Paradise MP-D2 MK3 dac. I did not see a streamer on your list so, does he want to try one out?

    Since he has not stated what he feels he is missing or looking to get out of the system, it makes it hard to suggest anything. I think is preamp is solid. Maybe add a subwoofer in the mix?
    Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista 300, Audioquest Thunderbird Zero Speaker Cable, Tyler Highland H2, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,271
    Maybe a tube preamp with the 6sn7 tubes, I think the primaluna preamps use the smaller 9 pin tubes.
  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,862
    might mullards on the preamp. will know a little more when you get the cable list.
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Puritan PSM156
  • gyosa
    gyosa Posts: 675

    You beat me to it !

    I’d look for a refurb 851n

    Bk
    rooftop59 wrote: »
    If you keep an eye on Cambridge’s eBay site you can snag either a CXN V2 or an 851n streamer for under a grand refurbished. I am about to have the latter for sale in silver...

    Parasound A21 , Yamaha wxc-50 , Polk SDA 1c’s ( my first love .. ) , Kimber Kable 4TC, Sony 42” - BEDROOM

    B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Yamaha wxc-50 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL

    PS Audio Stellar S300 , Eversolo DMP-A8 , Yamaha wxc-50 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Salk Supercharged Song towers ( difficult choice between these and my family if I had to choose ... 😩 ) , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED - DEN , MAIN RIG

    Cambridge Audio 851n - sitting in the closet , for now

    Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sharp 65” TV - PATIO

    DAYENS AMPINO ( thanks Verb ! ) , KEiiD streamer ( this was only 60 bucks ?? ) , Polk atrium 8SDi’s - KID’s BEDROOM
  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 9,969
    marvda1 wrote: »
    might mullards on the preamp. will know a little more when you get the cable list.

    He tried a bunch of tubes including Mullards. Those Valvos are really nice, on Heiney9’s top five list.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    Dedicated 20 amp lines and MIT cables.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 9,969
    I’m awaiting word of from him on what cables he’s using but I had the same thought about MIT’s. I will also ask whether he has dedicated 20 amp lines. Thanks
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    edited November 2020
    I've never heard the Belles 150A but I do own the 350A Reference. The mids and highs are very detailed. Subwoofer frequencies are detailed but not as pronounced. Maybe a good subwoofer is what he needs to enhance those frequencies as stated earlier. Also a good higher end speaker cable can make a difference as well if that isn't being used.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 2,987
    If he's really into his vinyl playback, adding an SUT might provide some added excitement there.
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,559
  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 9,969
    He said he is currently using "slightly above mid-level Morrows" and I discerned from his message that he means interconnects. He seemed to indicate he wasn't sure what speaker cables he had, but he got all his cable from a local audio salon in the mid-80's. He said he paid $300 each for two 3 footers back then which made his wife flip. (As an aside, I used to purchase a lot of gear from the same salon, the owner would let you take gear home to try out prior to purchase) I suspect that a compliment of decent MIT cables would be quite helpful, as well as a quality power cord on the Belles. If anyone is familiar with Morrow cables especially older ones would you please let me know what their general characteristics are? I suppose that depends on the model but perhaps they have "house" tendencies. In the back of my mind I seem to remember listening to some Morrows in the past and not being particularly enthralled with them, but I could be thinking of a number of cables that didn't do much for me. I also remember some of the cable in the early days commanding big bucks but $300 each for IC's would have been lots of dough in the mid-80's and that was purportedly the "friend" price.
  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,271
    Cables may help, but it can be difficult to match the right ones to your system. You may want to look into a DSD dac or Maybe a tube dac.
  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,862
    If I'm not mistaken, I think Monster was the big kid on the block and some of their wire is known to become corroded over time.
    I am writing a review on some Audio Envy cables and am impressed.
    $158 3ft. interconnects, $412 8ft speaker cables with a 45 day return policy.
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Puritan PSM156
  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,350
    edited November 2020
    I had ESL's for several years. Some amps can't handle an ESL speaker which can cause harshness or distortion.

    Magnetic speakers presents a mostly resistive load to an amplifier. Electrostatic speakers present a capacitive or reactive load to an amp. If the amp can't handle it, or you have high capacitance speaker cables, harshness can be the result. IIRC ESL's can range from 2 to 120 Ohm, or more, depending on frequency. I know the Belles is a great amp but I don't know how it behaves with ESL speakers. Worth looking into. If folks say the Belle's works great with ESL's, you look elsewhere.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 9,969
    Thanks much. Anyone have thoughts on how the Belles 150 would behave with the ESL speakers?
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    SCompRacer wrote: »
    I had ESL's for several years. Some amps can't handle an ESL speaker which can cause harshness or distortion.

    Magnetic speakers presents a mostly resistive load to an amplifier. Electrostatic speakers present a capacitive or reactive load to an amp. If the amp can't handle it, or you have high capacitance speaker cables, harshness can be the result. IIRC ESL's can range from 2 to 120 Ohm, or more, depending on frequency. I know the Belles is a great amp but I don't know how it behaves with ESL speakers. Worth looking into. If folks say the Belle's works great with ESL's, you look elsewhere.

    Good point. I had to go back and read the OP's original concerns. My original thought was he wasn't happy with the bass output but now I'm thinking the highs are fatiguing on the ML's and the Belles could be considered too detailed for a naturally bright speaker. As for not finding the "sweet spot" with the GE2's I'd almost suspect room acoustics / speaker placement.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus