Question: upgrading cartridges

Joey_V · October 2020

Hey guys -

Question - for those experienced. How different are cartridges from each other - from your upgrade experience?

Is it similar to a component upgrade? Or are we just splitting hairs?

ZLTFUL · October 2020

Cartridges can make a huge difference. Definitely a component level upgrade.

Especially when you consider how cartridges work with other items in the signal chain. There is a very good reason why good, high end phono pre-amps have so many settings adjustments.

I am not a hardcore vinyl-phile but even within the MC cartridge world, there are definitive gains to be had as you move up the food chain. There are exceptions...budget cartridges that punch well above their price-class. But those are the exceptions and not the rule. And that disparity is considerably more evident in the MM world.

Joey_V · October 2020

Yeah
I’m going to have to test this out and compare.
I will also bring in a Project RPM 10 and compare to the Avenger Reference.
So much on my todo list

jdjohn · October 2020

Cartridge brands definitely have a 'house sound', with some of the same descriptors as other components - warm, bright, analytical, neutral.

Cantilever design/material, and stylus shape are where some of the biggest differences can be found within a brand's line of products.

Matching cartridge compliance and tonearm mass is another thing to consider.

Have we mentioned this is a rabbit hole?

mhardy6647 · October 2020

Different cartridge manufacturers have different - sometimes very different - perspectives on tone. Choice of cartridge, as already stated, will make an enormous difference in the overall presentation of reproduced music from a record.

Matching of arm to the cartridge requirements is also very important, as is alignment in all three dimensions. Ideally the stylus should manifest perfect tangency (or is that tangence?) to the groove at all points across the record, and be able to respond to all of the peaks and valleys (in three dimensions) cut into the groove, irrespective of groove "velocity" (which takes into account signal amplitude and frequency, as best I understand it).

Because records are cut with a tangential arm, and most tonearms are pivoted, there is always, always, always tracking error. There are multiple schemes to "optimize" the stylus aligment to give the best possible overall performance -- given that the stylus will be perfectly aligned at only one, or two (depending upon alignment) points on the record.

PS Ortofon SPUs are bitchen.
(but they're not for everyone, nor for every arm)

PPS

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Cartridges can make a huge difference. Definitely a component level upgrade.

Especially when you consider how cartridges work with other items in the signal chain. There is a very good reason why good, high end phono pre-amps have so many settings adjustments...

Oh, yeah, there is that, too!

load resistance and capacitance matter quite a bit for MM and MI cartridges.
MC cartridges are slightly "better" in that regard (as load capacitance is essentially a non-issue for MCs).

PPPS We probably shouldn't even tell him about strain gauge and piezo cartridges, should we?

ZLTFUL · October 2020

mhardy6647 wrote: »

PPPS We probably shouldn't even tell him about strain gauge and piezo cartridges, should we?

Now yer just being mean.

Joey_V · October 2020

So is a linear tracking arm theoretically the better move, doc @mhardy6647 ?

I wanted to try out a koetsu or an airtight cart as a secondary to my Lyra.

This can get expensive real quick... and outta control

Joey_V · October 2020

I was looking at maybe this one as an end table some day - Clearaudio Master Innovation with TT1 or TT2. Linear tracking and magnetic platters. Plus the black is awesome.

Someday... but I’m really enjoying this Avenger Ref!

So no rush at all. Maybe in 5 or 10 years - hahaha

Clearaudio Master Innovation at Paragon

jdjohn · October 2020

Joey_V wrote: »

This can get expensive real quick... and outta control

Not sure what you mean...

Those are obviously ones not currently installed on turntables...of which I have more than a few

Of course, I don't think the value of all mine in total add up to the cost of your one Lyra Etna. Cartridges are relatively easy to store - don't take up much space - so easy to get carried away without realizing it.

jdjohn · October 2020

Joey_V wrote: »

I was looking at maybe this one as an end table some day - Clearaudio Master Innovation with TT1 or TT2. Linear tracking and magnetic platters. Plus the black is awesome.

Someday... but I’m really enjoying this Avenger Ref!

So no rush at all. Maybe in 5 or 10 years months - hahaha

Fixed it for ya

jdjohn · October 2020

ZLTFUL wrote: »

mhardy6647 wrote: »

PPPS We probably shouldn't even tell him about strain gauge and piezo cartridges, should we?

Now yer just being mean.

Don't forget about step-up transformers.

displayname · October 2020

Joey_V wrote: »

So is a linear tracking arm theoretically the better move, doc @mhardy6647 ?

Welcome to the rabbit hole. You've entered one of the most heated topics in high end turntables. Many people have designs they swear by, but good luck finding a universal answer.

Linear vs unipivot vs gimbal
Detachable headshell vs integrated
Direct Drive vs Belt Drive
Baerwald vs Stevenson vs others (cartridge alignment)
Suspended platform vs Ridged
Cartridge tonearm matching
The list goes on!

This is why vinyl is kind of it's own hobby inside the audio hobby. Have fun and figure out how to hide those receipts

marvda1 · October 2020

What happened to the rack being your last purchase of the year 🤔

invalid · October 2020

marvda1 wrote: »

What happened to the rack being your last purchase of the year 🤔

He must of had an empty shelf on his new audio rack.

Joey_V · October 2020

marvda1 wrote: »

What happened to the rack being your last purchase of the year 🤔

Did I really say the rack was the last purchase?
🤦🏻‍♂️

mhardy6647 · October 2020

I'm not really sure that a linear (tangential) tracking arm is better than a swingin' arm -- it just manifests whole a different set of issues. My limited experience with linear-tracking arms is that IGD is essentially eliminated -- which I do like a lot. But it can be beaten back for a normal arm by proper alignment, too.

jdjohn · October 2020

You'd be surprised what you can get (specs-wise) for your money with a vintage linear tracker in good working order.

I happen to have a Technics SL-Q5 linear tracker, and pertinent specs are:
Rumble: -78dB
W&F: 0.025%

VPI Avenger Reference comparable specs:
Rumble: -82dB [clearly better]
W&F: 0.03% [only a rounding diff.]

The Technics is limited to P-mount cartridges, but those can actually be VERY good, but it is still a limiting factor.

Having said that, gimme a TOLA Mitsubishi LT turntable that accepts standard 1/2" cartridge mounts, and I'd be happy. They sell at premium prices for a reason.

mhardy6647 · October 2020

maybe something more along the lines of this...?

One of my hifi colleagues is currently fiddlin' with this one. Fiddly it is, but he's a mechanically competent kinda fellow, and he likes it quite a bit so far.

jdjohn · October 2020

Very nice. Is that an air-bearing tonearm, by chance? I've heard that those are the schnizz-nit.

txcoastal1 · October 2020

@SCompRacer

Rich would be the guy to chime in on the air-bearing tone arm

Joey_V · October 2020

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I'm not really sure that a linear (tangential) tracking arm is better than a swingin' arm -- it just manifests whole a different set of issues. My limited experience with linear-tracking arms is that IGD is essentially eliminated -- which I do like a lot. But it can be beaten back for a normal arm by proper alignment, too.

I guess every design has compromises.

Might as well quit while I’m ahead

Clipdat · October 2020

Ortofon FTW.

Joey_V · October 2020

Ortofon 95 is well regarded

And the MC Anna

BlueBirdMusic · October 2020

Instead of thinking of a cartridge as a component, I think of a cartridge as its own compact audio system with multiple components. They are complicated and involved.

Don't just stick with the new stuff. The vintage cartridges and styli have their own entrance into the rabbit hole. Then you have all of the peripheral accessories such as extra headshells, tracking scale, record cleaner, preamp, etc to consider.

There is no stopping point!

Find you a vinyl enthusiast friend (guide), someone like jdjohn, who has over the years accumulated many different brands and models of cartridges and can provide you the "ropes" as how they perform and sound.

My main guide is a friend in NYC who has the same audio equipment as I have. He points out these vintage Audio-Technica cartridges that have been proven over time. He is also a treasure trove of styli for the vintage cartridges. Jody (jdjohn) has helped me too.

Good luck!

SCompRacer · October 2020

I use an air bearing arm on a DIY heavy plinth Lenco. It is said to be an inexpensive knockoff of a higher priced arm. A wealthy fellow in the Lenco forum compared it very favorably to the higher priced air arms he owned. VTA adjustment is a bit clunky compared to the higher priced offerings. Like a coarse thread versus very fine thread adjustment. I have had many nice pivoted arms with the best set up tools and, just my opinion, I would not go back to a pivoted arm.

My DIY Lenco idler build uses several layers of Baltic Birch. T-nuts were used for mounting components such as platter bearing and motor plate. Wood screws may eventually strip. T-nuts were mixed in alternating layers to help distribute any motor or idler vibrations into different layers. A larger, custom tight tolerance stainless platter bearing is used. Requires Turbine oil. An electronic speed control holds exacting speed. The torque available ensures no speed dropouts through difficult passages. The table is very quiet. It punches way beyond its price point.

When considering an air bearing arm, you have other things to think about. Where are you going to put the air compressor? The type of compressor is dictated by requirements of the arm. We are talking large fish tank size, not a 5 HP shop air compressor. You have to run an air line to the arm. I have a cat who would bite the hose. Maybe the pulsing, vibrations in the hose with the pump running excited him. I covered it with Techflex so it looks like a power cord.

Regarding compressor noise. Those without a basement put the compressor in a closet. I’ve seen some put them in an insulated cabinet in a closet. Mine is in the basement so I cannot hear it. I control the compressor with a remote-control AC relay. I simply push a button on a key fob and do not have to run downstairs or go into a closet to plug it in.

You need an expansion tank near the arm to smooth the pump pulses out. Some DIY and paint or fabric cover large PVC. Mine is a repurposed whole house water filter with just the outer layer of filter material. A small CFM or cubic feet per minute compressor will not push through a thick filter. Air noise from the arm is not an issue at the listening position. Some claim the air rushing across the record blows dust off the record keeping them cleaner.

I ran the air compressor tubing through the wall to an existing media plate (video, LAN and phone). A hole was drilled into media plate. A brass push-lock fitting was installed making it a very neat install with high WAF.

I use an SUT or step up transformer for LOMC cartridges. IMO you end with less amplification noise using an SUT (passive amplification) and good quality lower output phono stage than without an SUT and a good quality high output phono stage. The SUT must be properly matched to the cartridge.

pitdogg2 · October 2020

Joey_V wrote: »

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I'm not really sure that a linear (tangential) tracking arm is better than a swingin' arm -- it just manifests whole a different set of issues. My limited experience with linear-tracking arms is that IGD is essentially eliminated -- which I do like a lot. But it can be beaten back for a normal arm by proper alignment, too.

I guess every design has compromises.

Might as well quit while I’m ahead

yea man you had better pull the chute .....IT'S a DEEEEEEEEEP hole you just fell into.

maxward · October 2020

But it’s sooo much fun! Thanks for sharing your setup ^.

nooshinjohn · October 2020

Joey... get a ClearAudio Goldfinger Statement and be done with it. Head and shoulders the best cartridge I have ever heard. It retains all the warmth of vinyl while also getting into 100db dynamic range, which is cd quality... You will never feel the need to look elsewhere for a cart.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa1d0i-clearaudio-goldfinger-statement-mc-cartridges

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649653064-clearaudio-goldfinger-statement-gfs-mc-cartridge-very-low-hours-excellent-condition/

Joey_V · October 2020

SCompRacer wrote: »

I use an air bearing arm on a DIY heavy plinth Lenco. It is said to be an inexpensive knockoff of a higher priced arm. A wealthy fellow in the Lenco forum compared it very favorably to the higher priced air arms he owned. VTA adjustment is a bit clunky compared to the higher priced offerings. Like a coarse thread versus very fine thread adjustment. I have had many nice pivoted arms with the best set up tools and, just my opinion, I would not go back to a pivoted arm.

My DIY Lenco idler build uses several layers of Baltic Birch. T-nuts were used for mounting components such as platter bearing and motor plate. Wood screws may eventually strip. T-nuts were mixed in alternating layers to help distribute any motor or idler vibrations into different layers. A larger, custom tight tolerance stainless platter bearing is used. Requires Turbine oil. An electronic speed control holds exacting speed. The torque available ensures no speed dropouts through difficult passages. The table is very quiet. It punches way beyond its price point.

When considering an air bearing arm, you have other things to think about. Where are you going to put the air compressor? The type of compressor is dictated by requirements of the arm. We are talking large fish tank size, not a 5 HP shop air compressor. You have to run an air line to the arm. I have a cat who would bite the hose. Maybe the pulsing, vibrations in the hose with the pump running excited him. I covered it with Techflex so it looks like a power cord.

Regarding compressor noise. Those without a basement put the compressor in a closet. I’ve seen some put them in an insulated cabinet in a closet. Mine is in the basement so I cannot hear it. I control the compressor with a remote-control AC relay. I simply push a button on a key fob and do not have to run downstairs or go into a closet to plug it in.

You need an expansion tank near the arm to smooth the pump pulses out. Some DIY and paint or fabric cover large PVC. Mine is a repurposed whole house water filter with just the outer layer of filter material. A small CFM or cubic feet per minute compressor will not push through a thick filter. Air noise from the arm is not an issue at the listening position. Some claim the air rushing across the record blows dust off the record keeping them cleaner.

I ran the air compressor tubing through the wall to an existing media plate (video, LAN and phone). A hole was drilled into media plate. A brass push-lock fitting was installed making it a very neat install with high WAF.

I use an SUT or step up transformer for LOMC cartridges. IMO you end with less amplification noise using an SUT (passive amplification) and good quality lower output phono stage than without an SUT and a good quality high output phono stage. The SUT must be properly matched to the cartridge.

That's awesome man.

Joey_V · October 2020

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Joey... get a ClearAudio Goldfinger Statement and be done with it. Head and shoulders the best cartridge I have ever heard. It retains all the warmth of vinyl while also getting into 100db dynamic range, which is cd quality... You will never feel the need to look elsewhere for a cart.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa1d0i-clearaudio-goldfinger-statement-mc-cartridges

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649653064-clearaudio-goldfinger-statement-gfs-mc-cartridge-very-low-hours-excellent-condition/

I looked at the CAGFS.... impressive unit. It appears to be in the top echelon of carts. Some have felt it was a lateral move from the Atlas, and back. The Etna should compete well.

GFS on a fatboy gimbal 12" arm on the second post.... wowzer, I am sure that'll be amazing. I hear it's a little finicky with set up especially given the extra long cantilever.

displayname · October 2020

Joey_V wrote: »

I hear it's a little finicky with set up especially given the extra long cantilever.

Once it's set up you really don't need to mess with it until you're replacing or servicing it. And you can usually pay experienced dealers for set up services.

Question: upgrading cartridges

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