Atrium Sub100 Hookup

Need advice.

Devices:
Yamaha TSR-7850 A/V Receiver
Crown XLS 1002 Amp
Atrium Sub100

Not using any satellite speakers. Crown amp is solely to power the subwoofer.

Currently, since there are 4 leads coming from the Sub100, (Duel Coils), I have them wired in parallel and joined to a standard, 2 lead speaker wire.

Said speaker wire is connected to Channel 1 of the Crown Amp.

The Crown Amp (CH1) Input is connected to the Yamaha Receiver (Pre-Out Front) via RCA cable.

Result is a very weak signal on the Crown signal strength meter and very low volume on the Atrium Sub100. Increasing the gain of CH1 on the Crown has no visible or audible effect.

Can anyone provide guidance and/or expertise with properly setting up this system? I am clearly a novice.

Thanks.
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Comments

  • Hello,
    Welcome to the forum. As a test try wiring either the right or left channel of the amplifier to one pair of speaker wire connections on the sub. In other words, don't combine left and right wires at the sub. Just connect the left channel of the amp to the left channel of the sub and see what happens.
  • CGC
    CGC Posts: 51
    I’ll try. Thanks
  • CGC
    CGC Posts: 51
    Did not notice any difference. Adjusting gain on amp also made no difference.
  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,558
    How do you have the Yamaha set up for speakers?

    Are you using the bass management/crossover on the Yamaha?

    Why not use the sub outputs on the Yamaha?
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  • CGC
    CGC Posts: 51
    The Yamaha does not support a passive sub. Hence, the requirement of the Crown.
  • CGC
    CGC Posts: 51
    The Yamaha works great for the outdoor Klipsch speakers we have. Just not designed for an unpowered subwoofer.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 7,659
    edited August 2020
    Are you sure the Crown is working?
    If so, try a different pair of RCA cables from Yamaha.
  • A way to test where the problem is would be to use another device to feed a signal to the Crown. First turn the amp all the way down and use the right and left outputs of a CD/DVD player fed to the amp. Start playing a CD and slowly turn up the amp's volume.
  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,558
    edited August 2020
    I agree, confirm the Crown is working as well. Do you have speakers you can connect to it?
    CGC wrote: »
    The Yamaha works great for the outdoor Klipsch speakers we have. Just not designed for an unpowered subwoofer.
    How do you have the Klipsch speakers connected to the Yamaha? If you're trying to use the front preouts on the Yamaha, I'm not sure the front speaker terminals you're probably using for the Klipsches can be engaged at the same time.
    CGC wrote: »
    The Yamaha does not support a passive sub. Hence, the requirement of the Crown.
    Understood. You would only be using the sub output(s) to get signal to the Crown This would be looking at the Crown/Atrium combination as a powered sub.

    Check your AVR's configuration, and probably execute a factory reset for good measure if it was previously used elsewhere.

    You don't normally use the speaker channel preouts for a sub signal, but if you're going to do that, you need to make sure the AVR isn't set up to use a subwoofer with the crossover set to send the low frequencies to the sub output channels. You'll get practically no low frequency at the front preouts if it's set this way.

    If you want to use the front preouts to get signal to the Crown, your AVR would be set with front speakers available and set Large, and no subwoofer in the system. But not sure why you'd want to do that when there's a subwoofer option on the AVR. Just configure the AVR to use them. There are even two, so you might be able to use two channels of the Crown to power the Sub100.

    Page 113 of the Manual talks about speaker and subwoofer setup.
    https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/3/1188333/web_AV17-0350_TSR-7850_om_U_En_D0.pdf

    Atrium Sub100 Manual
    https://pdf.crutchfieldonline.com/ImageBank/v20181023104400/Manuals/107/107ATST300.PDF


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  • CGC
    CGC Posts: 51
    Wow! Above my pay grade that’s for sure. I am using the Yamaha to power my outdoor speakers. They work well.

    I do not have a way to test the Crown as described above.

    The only reason I am using the Front Pre Out is because that is the only Pre Out connection that lit the Crown gain meter and provided sound to the Sub100, though weak.

    I could not find anything in the AVR settings that even referred to the Sub Preout. I too thought the sub Preout would be the logical choice for the Crown/Atrium connection but it didn’t work. If there is a Yamaha setting to turn this Preout on, I haven’t found it.
  • What do you have for source devices? Cable box, satellite dish receiver? Tape deck, maybe? Any high level (not a turntable that means) can be used directly into the Crown.
  • CGC
    CGC Posts: 51
    Hard to explain. All in-home entertainment devices are connected to a Bose Lifestyle system and not easily accessible.
  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,558
    edited August 2020
    You don't have to turn on Preouts. Just plugging something into the preouts sends the signal downstream. I've never tried running a speaker from a channel speaker terminal as well as trying to run a channel preout to an amp. I would think the output to the speaker terminals for these channels on the AVR would be disabled once the preout for that same channel is engaged, but I've never tried it.

    Once you confirm that the Crown is working, I'd take a look at these pages in your manual, and, in short, try this:
    1. Reset the unit to factory default; p154
    2. Set the speaker system; p109. Set the Front speakers to Small. None to center and surrounds if an option.
    3. Set the Crossover Frequency; p112. Set this to between 80Hz or 120Hz, whichever sounds best (Which Klipsch speakers are you using? Need to know their specs) This determines where the bass cutoff is for your Klipsch speakers, and what frequency is sent to the subwoofer preouts on the AVR for your Crown/Sub100 setup.
    4. Set the use of the subwoofer; p113

    Here are a couple of screenshots from your manual. Start here. In your setup, if it's outdoors and not in an enclosed patio, you might also want to see whether there's an option for "double-bass" or "extra-bass" or something like that. I couldn't find anything. But if it's an available option, it's away to run your Klipsch speakers full range as well as using the Crown/Sub. The benefit here would be fuller sound from the Klipsch, but if this setup is wide open outside, I'm not sure what kind of results you'll see.

    You can right-click, Open Image In New Tab to view this full size, or just ref your manual. I pulled these pages from the link above and highlighted the sections for you to check out.
    0f0hz4c4sxjt.png

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  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,558
    edited August 2020
    You're going to want to check out the setup in your Crown XLS 1002, as well. I just saw that it looks like that's got a crossover control in it as well, with high-pass and low-pass filters. If these are set, it could be affecting what's going out to the Sub100.

    I'd also start with a factory reset of this device, too.
    What's this unit's history? Was it used somewhere else before?

    After resetting it, run the Crown full-range. The Yamaha is going to be controlling the bass management/crossover. If you set the high-pass and low-pass filters on the Crown as well, you may have unexpected results since you'll be running one crossover into another. Use only the gain controls on the Crown.

    https://www.crownaudio.com/en/product_documents/5055568_xlsdc2_mnl_print_050615-pdf

    And here's a link to the specs for the Atrium Sub100 for anyone following along. I've never used one of these before, but looks like it's meant to be driven with the same speaker outputs as mains/satellites. I don't see any reason you can't power it with the Crown, though, with the subwoofer output(s) of your Yamaha. Just watch the setup and levels on the Crown. Start low.
    https://www.crutchfield.com/p_107ASB100T/Polk-Audio-Atrium-Sub100-Terracotta.html

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  • I understand. How about a smart phone or computer, anything with a headphone output jack? You might need to find a cable that has 3.5mm mini plug on one end and RCA plugs on the other. Same procedure, turn down the amp, plug in the other device and get some music and slowly turn up the Crown. The only way to figure it out is to have another way of providing a reliable source and see if a proper signal is given to the amp it will work.
  • CGC
    CGC Posts: 51
    Outdoor speakers: Klipsch AW650’s

    Thanks for all the info. It will take a week to digest it all with my pea brain, I think. Crown tech had me set the Crown’s crossover as close as possible to match the specs of the Sub100 so as not to damage it with too much power.

    I just wanted to make a good thing better. Sit with a beer and enjoy the music. Why so complicated? Ha!

    Oh, open air deck by the way.
  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,558
    Yeah, it's a lot to take in, but once you get a grasp on a few concepts and confirm a few things it's pretty easy.

    The Crown tech probably had you set the crossover because you would have been sending full-range signal to it the way you were trying to do it before. Yes, it would have been too "vocal" and trying to work like a regular speaker, not a sub. If you use the subwoofer output(s) on the Yamaha, you won't be doing that.

    This'll all make sense after after it sinks in. It's overwhelming at first.
    Gotta put in the work if you want the best sound! If you're not losing sleep for a couple of nights from obsessing over it, you're doing it wrong B)

    With the frequency response of those speakers (70Hz-20kHz (±3dB)) and the Sub100 (50Hz-110Hz (±3dB)), I'd say start by setting the crossover on your Yamaha at 80Hz, and experiment with it up to 100Hz. IF you use the subwoofer out on it.

    rpljxtcrjoce.png

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  • CGC
    CGC Posts: 51
    edited August 2020
    Lets back up a tad. First of all, the Sub 100 indicates duel cones, hence the four wire leads. Should they be connected in parallel? Right now I only have the two left leads connected to the Crown. The two rights are lying bare on the deck.

    As far as the Klipsch AW650's, the Yamaha tech helped me in the early going, pre Crown/Sub100 and they actually sound very good as things sit now.

    I know you have spent a great deal of time on this for me and I really appreciate it, but I am going to need a step by step guide on what to do here. I do not want to jump into the Yamaha settings and end up losing what I already have. Hope you understand.

    I am all for getting an education and trying to fix this, I just don't want to mess things up.
  • CGC
    CGC Posts: 51
    Sorry, The Crown's history is...no history. It's new. Just purchased it from Crown.
  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,558
    edited August 2020
    The Atrium Sub100 manual shows a few different configurations. Have you checked that out yet?

    Yes, you do need to connect both voice coils.
    You might be able to connect them in parallel to a single channel of the Crown, but the manual for the Sub100 shows preference for connecting each voice coil to a separate channel. If you connect two speakers in parallel, it halves the impedance. In this case, you'd go from 8ohm to 4ohm. The Crown is rated for it, apparently according to its specs.

    Some of the other guys can chime in here, but from what I'm seeing from the documentation, you have two options with the Sub100:
    1. Wire the sub in parallel with the L and R speakers from the front L and R speaker terminals of the AVR along with the Klipsch (1st page below)
    2. Use a second amp and wire the Sub100 using 2 channels (You could probably wire them in parallel to a single channel, but you might only do that if you only had one subwoofer out from the Yamaha, but you have two outs. Could also use a splitter) (2nd page below)

    I say go option 2.
    • Wire each coil of the Sub100 to a L and R channel of the Crown.
    • Next, run a sub cable from each of your AVR's sub outs to each of the L and R channels of the Crown.
    • Or, run one cable from one of the AVR's sub outs, and use a splitter at the Crown to split that signal into the L and R inputs.

    Or, possibly wire both of the Sub100's voice coils in parallel to a single channel of the Crown, observing polarity, and use one sub out cable from the Yamaha to the single channel of the Crown. This is getting a bit beyond my own experience so someone else will have to weigh in in this specific option of parallel wiring of the Sub100 to a single channel on the Crown.

    Someone check my math.

    q1n0xupvs83z.png

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  • CGC
    CGC Posts: 51
    Holy cow. What time can you get here?
  • CGC
    CGC Posts: 51
    I was about to start by resetting the Yamaha to default settings and I cannot find the Advanced Setup screen!! So I can't get past the first step for goodness sakes!

    I am using the TV to view the setup menu but Advanced doesn't appear.
  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,558
    edited August 2020
    Maybe try to go to Setup and look for Advanced. It looks like it's under that.
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  • CGC
    CGC Posts: 51
    That's where it should be but it isn't.
  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,558
    Hmm. Might have to do it from the AVR front panel.
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  • CGC
    CGC Posts: 51
    Well, I have kinda given up for today. Time to BBQ dinner and have an adult beverage. I will pick it up tomorrow and try and figuout how to get to the menu on the front display. I seem to remember there is a button combination required. I will update. Thanks for all your patience.
  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,558
    Sure thing. I'll be worth the effort once you get it set up.
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  • CGC
    CGC Posts: 51
    A new day and a new update. You were correct, couldn't sleep thinking about a million wiring scenarios. Anyway, this is what I have done so far this morning:

    Update:

    1) Ran a second speaker wire through the wall of the house and connected it to the pair of Right (+/-) leads from the Atrium Sub100. Connected it to Ch2 of the Crown Amp. Now both coils (Left & Right) are individually connected to Ch1 & 2 of the Crown Amp.

    2) Ran a second RCA cable from the Yamaha Preout, Sub 2 to Ch2 Input of the Crown Amp. So, now Yamaha Sub1 & 2 are connected to Crown Inputs Ch1 & 2.

    3) Factory reset Crown Amp.

    4) Factory reset Yamaha AVR. (Yuk! Lost all my presets)

    Result:

    Started some music and the first positive was the meters on both channels of the Crown lit up. A first!

    However, no sound from the Sub100. The meters on the Crown were responding properly to the music tones, dying off when there was no bass and bouncing up and down with the music when there was.

    I kept inching up the gain setting for both channels. Still no sound from the Sub100. I finally got brave and set the Gain of both Crown channels to the max. That gave me sound from the Sub100! Yay!!

    However, the sound is very week and I can't turn it up, manually, any more.

    Conclusion:

    I am sooooo close but not quite there yet. What am I missing?

  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,558
    edited August 2020
    Nice! Good work so far. Sounds like you've got the cabling set, and now it's just a matter of configuring the Yamaha and Crown.

    That makes sense for the gain on the Crown. Levels are going to be controlled from the Yamaha.

    Some questions and notes:
    1. First, just to confirm, verify the polarity and lead colors on your connections from the Sub100 to the Crown. If you have one pair reversed, the bass will cancel out. See that screenshot just above and double-check the one that shows Amp#2 on it.
    2. Does the Crown still have any custom settings on it? If so, I'd factory reset that, too, before going any further. You're going to control all configuration from the Yamaha. You don't want anything on the Crown interfering.
    3. Did you go through the speaker/amplifier setup process on the Yamaha to tell it which speakers are present?
    4. Set Front L and Front R present, and set these as Small. This is important because it tells the receiver to send the low frequencies to the sub outputs at the crossover level you're going to set. Make sure you're selecting None for Center and Surrounds.
    5. Set Sub present. (Set second sub present if this is an option)
    6. Set Crossover to 90Hz. Might want to play with this some. Between 80Hz and 100Hz to blend with those Klipsch speakers.
    7. If after all this, you're still not getting the sub output you like, start bumping the subwoofer level in the AVR +1dB to +3dB.

    I might take some doing getting this stuff set, but you'll get the hang of it pretty quickly the more you mess with the menus. Reference the screenshots above, and get your manuals out.

    After you get this in the ballpark, you could try using the setup mic to automate the levels setup, or you can manually adjust them in the AVR to bump up or down presence of the Klipsch or Sub. Don't go crazy with levels.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,558
    If you have an external source, like a smartphone or some media player with its own volume control, you may experience some distortion. If you do, set the source's volume to between ~80% - 95%, and control the music system's volume with the Yamaha.
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