Amp/ AVR for RTi10

Hello experts,

My first post in this forum. I don't consider myself an audiophile but I have some knowledge about various AV components etc. In the past (2011) I owned a Denon 1911, Energy Take Classic 5.1, AC Ryan media player and a Plasma 1080p TV. Had to sell it off when I was immigrating to Canada.

Now I am cooped up in a 750 sqft 1bedroom apartment in an expensive place called Toronto. I have a Samsung 4K TV and as evident I was living (listening) a vanilla life.

Its July 2020 and amidst the Covid pandemic I was antsy so ending up making an impulsive buy on Polk Audio RTi10's. I got them for 300 CAD locally. I guess I overpaid but the speakers are in 9/10 condition.

Now I am searching for a decent Amp/ AVR for them.

More supporting info.
1. Living room size is approx 200 sqft.
2. Not looking for something solely for Stereo or solely for movies. I would prefer a mix of both. Having said that, will still be watching movies on the floor standers only (If I can enjoy them on these RTi10's, that is)
3. Looking for something which can bring out the flavor in the RTi10s. Read in a few places they need a powerful amp?
4. Not looking something which will break the bank (recently got laid off so this is just something to take my mind off the sad times). max 300-400$ CAD?
5. Not looking for Dolby Atoms etc. Just a good sounding system would do.
6. No sub-woofer yet. I have a hunch, for a room this small, the tower speakers will have more than enough bass.
5. Would prefer a few options since I do not plan on buying the suggestions first hand off a retailer. Will scout for them refurbished or used.
6. I will not be getting a center or surround channel for now as it would be too cluttered and not possible to wire them in the rented apartment.
7. I doubt I'd be playing too loud music as the walls are paper thin. I still would like to give some challenge to an abusive neighbor who hurls a lot of #$%#****% clearly audible in my apartment lol.
8. Source would be Blu Ray or HD ripped movies. Cringing to be able to setup a 5.1 but will convince myself not to. May be a media player for FLACs or an Audio CD player eventually or whatever is the norm now.

These are the considerations I could think of. Happy to answer any follow up questions.

Could you experts help me with some suggestions.

PS - Would also like to know if there are any Canada/ Toronto centric AV forums with classifieds.

Thanks,

Comments

  • polrbehrpolrbehr Posts: 2,643
    Check out the offerings from Denon (they are owned by Sound United now, which also owns Polk). I have a Denon 3312ci AVR* powering my RTi10 speakers and they sound just fine. The nice thing is, that AVR has preouts so you can add a separate amplifier down the road. In fact, I used to use the preouts to hook up an Adcom GFA535 amp (rated 60wpc) and the RTi10s sounded better than with the Denon. If you're going to buy new, be mindful that lower-end, lower priced AVRs are pretty lacking in the feature dept. - you get what you pay for, hence my suggestion to look at used, especially if you're on a budget.

    *it's discontinued, but I found one used on eBay

    Good luck, and welcome to the Forum too.
    So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?


    http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/
  • tonyp063tonyp063 Posts: 809
    Cambridge Audio Topaz SR10 or SR20

    Meets all your needs & is not fussy.
    Should be reasonably available refurbished or used in you price range
  • anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 2,679
    The RTi10s need an amp with some serious balls. Something north of 200WPC with a very high damping factor is what you are looking for. I used a Rotel RB991 on mine when I had them.
  • rooftop59rooftop59 Posts: 6,709
    You want something warmish with those speakers as theY are bright sounding. Marantz, NAD, or Cambridge would be good choices. If you can get this up north, it’s an incredible deal. I have the smaller one and it’s the beat sounding AVR for music I have ever owned.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cambridge-Audio-Azur-651R-Home-Theater-Receiver-7-1-Multi-Channel-Black/254627182310

    This would also fit the bill:

    https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/collections/a-v-receivers-and-amplifiers/products/nad-electronics-t-758-v3-7-2-channel-a-v-surround-sound-receiver-factory-refurbished

    This would also work, but you would definitely want to add a two channel amplifier:

    https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marnr1609/marantz-nr1609-slim-7.2-ch-x-50-watts-a/v-receiver/1.html
    Living Room 2.1: Dynaudio Contour 1.3mkii; Martin Logan Grotto sub; Musical Fidelity A308; Cambridge Azur 851N
    Game Room HT: Denon AVR-X4200w; Definitive Technology SM450; Definitive Technology LCR2000; Definitive Technology Procinema 800; Mirage Nanasats; Sub - HSU VTF-2 MK5
    Master Bedroom
    Cambridge Azur 551r; Definitive Technology StudioMonitor350; ACI Titan Subwoofer; Squeezebox Touch
  • snorkel4usnorkel4u Posts: 12
    Thank you everyone for chiming in. I realized I need to do some more research and learning on finding the right AMP / AVR for my speakers. Good for my understanding as well. I am googling, youtube for understanding wattage, amps, sensitivity, efficiency and other parameters.

    I checked in this forum but couldn't find much educative information. If you could help me point in the right direction that would definitely help.

    Once I have some know how I will review the amps you mentioned. I will be posting some questions soon.
  • snorkel4usnorkel4u Posts: 12
    So I spent a considerable amount of Saturday understanding the technicalities of music. This is what I learnt so far and some noob questions for starters----

    1.) Warm versus bright - Am I right in believing Warm speakers are more towards bass and vocals, sound musically appealing, comfy, pleasant. Bright speakers tend towards high frequencies or high treble effect?

    2.) When I checked the specs for RTi10 - it says - wattage 20-300 watts. I am assuming it is WPC (watts per channel). What does this mean really? Does it mean that any AMP which gives out 20 watts min to 300 watts maximum is fine for these speakers?
    In that case what is ideal wattage of an AMP for these speakers at 8 OHM impedance. I don't really want to play them too loud. Currently in a 250 sqft open style living room. Won't be parting with this set for next 2-3 years. Hopefully they will be moved into a house basement. Should I look at an amp which gives at least 150 wpc?

    3.) How does the above explanation, if its correct, correlate to channels used? For e.g. For the Cambridge AMP rooftop59 advised, - I see "140W RMS per channel, into 8 ohms (two channels driven), 100W RMS per channel, into 8 ohms (all 7 channels driven)" Should I interpret it as when you listen to two channels only, all the power is for them and hence they need more wpc. As compared to when you're watching a movie or need surround sound, the fronts won't be as loud as in stereo mode and hence wpc is expected to be lower? Just trying to understand the science behind it.

    4.) I learnt that sensitivity/ efficiency is more important for AMPs and Speakers as much as wattage. These polks are 89 db. Do Amps also have a sensitivity/ efficiency?

    5.) I learnt that since my speakers are 300 Watts maximum I don't need to really match the AMP to send 300 WPC. I just need to make sure I never exceed the 300WPC capacity of the speakers else they get damaged. Is this correct?

    6.) What purpose can I use the pre outs for?

    7.) Should I be inclined towards an integrated amp? I believe integrated amp is (Pre Amp + Power Amp) in one unit?

    8.) This is more of a logistics - How do you guys go about auditioning the systems? Since I have already bought the speakers all that remains is an AMP/ AVR. Should I approach the high end music stores in the city? How and where can I listen to the amp I wish to buy, may be I'll need to transport my speakers ?


    Thank you for helping me out!! Its getting exciting.
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 32,480
    Those recommended watts of 20-300 on the speaker.....don't pay that any attention. A 4 ohm speaker needs current, not necessarily watts, 2 different things. Current is represented in specs as amperes peak to peak. Receivers don't even have that in their specs because it's too poor. Some amps may not have that spec either, which means usually they lack the balls to power some harder to drive speakers. Also some amps have a sound signature of their own. Key is blending the sound of the speakers, amp, other gear, cables too, to achieve the sound you like. Much of this is trial and error as we can't hear for you. However, take advice from those who own those speakers if you want to take a shortcut, not waste money, to achieve good sound.

    More channels used, especially with receivers, means less wattage per channel. So if a spec says 100 watts per channel , 2 channels driven. If your going to use 7 channels say for HT use, you may only be pumping 30 watts. Preouts are to add separate amplification for those channels...should the need arise. Better to have them in case you need them down the road.

    Tell us what your musical tastes are, and we can better guide you towards a sound we think might please you. A pic of the room would help also as the room itself will play a factor in the sound you hear.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,956
    I would buy a Sub instead of trying to power them with 100's of watts you don't need especially since your room is so small.
    I think you would get way more out of a 2.1 over a 2.0 with a powerful amp.
    Save you money and get a nice SVS SB1000. Your looking at $499 unless you score one used.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • msgmsg Posts: 5,934
    Snork, I hate to say it, but the RTi10 isn't a great speaker for music, and they're especially empty sounding until they get moving at higher volumes. Unfortunately, once you're at that level, the tweeters are screaming. They're good for theater, and as noted above, you'll want to use a sub to fill in the bottom end and maybe even to cheat the mods out, but you may be getting complaints from neighbors.

    I've been down this path with RTi10s myself, and I bought them at the recommendation of a friend who later revealed he doesn't have very good hearing! It's funny now, but it wasn't then, because I spent months trying to find equipment to make those speakers sound good.

    I tried powerful AVRs from Pioneer and Marantz, as well as a B&K preamp with 200wpc amp with 75A peak to peak. The speakers cranked, and were authoritative, but they still sounded empty and thin in the midrange. They never satisfied.

    I'm going to say try to sell those speakers if you can and consider starting with a different speaker. If you want to stick with Polk, the Signature Series is a good combo use speaker for music and HT, or try to find a set of LSiM 703 large bookshelf speakers and a pair of stands.

    If you can't have it too loud, find an integrated, maybe one with tone controls, or even an older stereo receiver with a loudness button. This'll give you the perception of fuller sound at lower listening levels.

    There are also some nice powered monitors out there to consider, like from Audioengine and Klipsch, for example. Others seem to like Edifer as well.

    Sorry for this perspective, I know it might be a bummer. If you're sensitive to high frequencies, the RTi10 speakers can be fatiguing in 20 minutes or less.

    Keep learning though, you're doing a good job there. Welcome to the obsession/madness. I don't think I slept well for the first 4 to 6 months in was getting into this with all the obsessive reading I was doing late into the night.
    I disabled signatures.
  • snorkel4usnorkel4u Posts: 12
    msg wrote: »
    I don't think I slept well for the first 4 to 6 months in was getting into this with all the obsessive reading I was doing late into the night.

    Thanks msg. Exactly what I am doing now :) I guess doing the research has its own kicks. You learn so much. Thanks for your advice. I will take it with a pinch of salt. For now since I have bought the speakers already, I will try to pair them with a decent VFM amp and listen to it for a while before I personally experience what you did. For all you know, I may not be even 1/4th of an audiophile you and the others are and may end up being content with these.

    That being said added some more notes for my AMP purchase.
    - Get a higher wattage per channel driven AMP.


    Another school of thought !

    Right now I am itching to drive them with something and hear them out. Would you recommended buying any old used 100 wpc seriously inexpensive (read < 50$) AMP like Pioneer/ JVC etc to try them out. Some are available nearby, even 20-25 years old. Of course I won't be expecting any magic from them. At least it will help me understand the speaker a bit more. There could be a possibility I may dislike them so much that I give up on them start again with a new set of speakers. Who knows !!
  • msgmsg Posts: 5,934
    edited July 19
    msg wrote: »
    you'll want to use a sub to fill in the bottom end and maybe even to cheat the mids out, but you may be getting complaints from neighbors.
    quick correction here from the typo 'mods'.

    Indeed, you have to hear for yourself. Hopefully you'll find them pleasing.

    Good idea on the older receivers/integrateds to an extent. Some may need some work, but you can find pleasing results with them as-is in many cases. In fact, one of the tests that sounded best to me when I was messing with my RTi10s was using an old Realistic STA-84 stereo receiver. It is only rated at 25wpc, but it had a loudness button that helped them to sound better at lower volumes. It was better than the more modern entry-level Pioneer AVR I'd picked up from a friend, and they didn't sound quite as edgy.

    The other thing that helped was the Sound Retriever mode on that Pioneer AVR. Not ground breaking, but helpful.
    I disabled signatures.
  • snorkel4usnorkel4u Posts: 12
    Hello everyone, Thanks a lot for your inputs.
    Latest development - I was able to source a mint condition Yamaha RX-V667 for 50 CAD in the neighborhood. Couldn't resist buying even knowing they are only 90 WPC. Paired them with cheap cables lying at home, tinkered with the settings and I was able to get decent music sound and above average movie experience with just 2.0. I know for sure I will be selling off the yamaha 667 as soon as I can source a better amp.

    Will be getting better 12 AWG speaker wire for better current flow.

    @Tonyb above - Thanks for your inputs, I will add a hand drawn room map shortly to this thread.

    While searching for higher wattage AMPs in the neighborhood (staying strictly within in the budget) I found two listings.

    Vintage (1989) NAD 2400 Monitor series power amplifier 100 wpc @ 8Ohms for 250 CAD. This is the non THx certified version.

    Another item he has is the JVC RX-R75 110 wpc @ 8Ohms (Amp and Tuner in one).

    Do you experts believe either of them is worth to buy? I understand if I purchase any of the above, it would render my system solely for Audio purposes only as neither have HDMI or latest circuitry. But thought of checking with you guys if there is a way I could use them.

    PS - I am still trying to learn and understand the concepts of Pre Amp, Power Amp, Integrated amplifier versus a receiver etc.
  • snorkel4usnorkel4u Posts: 12
    forgot to mention - based on inputs from all of you this is the list of recommended AMPs I am in hunt for now

    Denon AVR 3312CI
    NAD T758 V1
    NAD c372
    Cambridge Audio Azur 651R
    RMB-1075
    Adcom GFA-7500
    Pioneer Elite SC-25
    PARASOUND HCA-2205A
    HK 3490
    Marantz SR 7001 7.1

    Search begins :)

    Thanks
  • msgmsg Posts: 5,934
    edited July 22
    Here's a list with very general definitions/descriptions
    • Preamp - controls and source selection, volume, and audio "processing". Used in conjunction with power amp.
      Benefit: Can mix and match with Power Amp to fine-tune synergy.
    • [Pre/]Pro[cessor] - Similar to Preamp, but offers surround processing as well.
      Benefit: Can mix and match with Power Amp for HT or combo use system
    • Power Amp - receives output connection from Preamp, amplifies signal, sends to/powers speakers.
      Benefit: can mix and match with Preamp to fine-tune synergy or upgrade or downgrade depending on Speaker requirements.
    • Integrated Amplifier - Preamp and Power Amp sections in one unit.
      Benefit: Save on interconnect cables, requires less space than a separate Preamp/Amp configuration
      Sometimes comes with Phono Preamp built-in
    • [Stereo] Receiver - as was explained to me, an integrated amplifier plus tuner
      Benefit: Tuner if you still listen to the radio. Typically comes with Phono Preamp as well on vintage units. Vintage units are still sometimes sought after because they can offer better sound than an entry level AVR for when 2ch/music is a priority.
    • AVR (Audio Video Receiver) - a pre/pro with integrated amplification that can process audio and video signals.
      Benefit: usually for multi-purpose/combo use, like home theater with 2ch modes.
      Good choice if space constrained and want one system for both music and HT surround, and not too concerned about getting the best 2ch quality. Also not typically recommended for speakers that work best with high current amplification. (There are exceptions, though, with some good units on the used market.) Depending on the unit quality, music over AVRs can sound thin and empty, and/or harsh and bright.
    I disabled signatures.
  • rooftop59rooftop59 Posts: 6,709
    Nice Scott! I thought about doing that, and then decided to work on my paying gig instead 😂
    Living Room 2.1: Dynaudio Contour 1.3mkii; Martin Logan Grotto sub; Musical Fidelity A308; Cambridge Azur 851N
    Game Room HT: Denon AVR-X4200w; Definitive Technology SM450; Definitive Technology LCR2000; Definitive Technology Procinema 800; Mirage Nanasats; Sub - HSU VTF-2 MK5
    Master Bedroom
    Cambridge Azur 551r; Definitive Technology StudioMonitor350; ACI Titan Subwoofer; Squeezebox Touch
  • snorkel4usnorkel4u Posts: 12
    msg wrote: »
    Here's a list with very general definitions/descriptions
    • Preamp - controls and source selection, volume, and audio "processing". Used in conjunction with power amp.
      Benefit: Can mix and match with Power Amp to fine-tune synergy.
    • [Pre/]Pro[cessor] - Similar to Preamp, but offers surround processing as well.
      Benefit: Can mix and match with Power Amp for HT or combo use system
    • Power Amp - receives output connection from Preamp, amplifies signal, sends to/powers speakers.
      Benefit: can mix and match with Preamp to fine-tune synergy or upgrade or downgrade depending on Speaker requirements.
    • Integrated Amplifier - Preamp and Power Amp sections in one unit.
      Benefit: Save on interconnect cables, requires less space than a separate Preamp/Amp configuration
      Sometimes comes with Phono Preamp built-in
    • [Stereo] Receiver - as was explained to me, an integrated amplifier plus tuner
      Benefit: Tuner if you still listen to the radio. Typically comes with Phono Preamp as well on vintage units. Vintage units are still sometimes sought after because they can offer better sound than an entry level AVR for when 2ch/music is a priority.
    • AVR (Audio Video Receiver) - a pre/pro with integrated amplification that can process audio and video signals.
      Benefit: usually for multi-purpose/combo use, like home theater with 2ch modes.
      Good choice if space constrained and want one system for both music and HT surround, and not too concerned about getting the best 2ch quality. Also not typically recommended for speakers that work best with high current amplification. (There are exceptions, though, with some good units on the used market.) Depending on the unit quality, music over AVRs can sound thin and empty, and/or harsh and bright.

    Thanks a lot msg! Much appreciated. This helps a lot! few more noob q's ahead.

    one clarification - You mentioned a preamp - does have volume - is it always true? Am I right in saying volume is equivalent to amplification of signal?

    If that's true then the major difference between pre and power amp would be a pre does signal processing which a power amp doesn't do?

    Also, if a Pre has volume, can I not just use a pre with the speakers?
  • rooftop59rooftop59 Posts: 6,709
    edited July 22
    snorkel4u wrote: »
    msg wrote: »
    Here's a list with very general definitions/descriptions
    • Preamp - controls and source selection, volume, and audio "processing". Used in conjunction with power amp.
      Benefit: Can mix and match with Power Amp to fine-tune synergy.
    • [Pre/]Pro[cessor] - Similar to Preamp, but offers surround processing as well.
      Benefit: Can mix and match with Power Amp for HT or combo use system
    • Power Amp - receives output connection from Preamp, amplifies signal, sends to/powers speakers.
      Benefit: can mix and match with Preamp to fine-tune synergy or upgrade or downgrade depending on Speaker requirements.
    • Integrated Amplifier - Preamp and Power Amp sections in one unit.
      Benefit: Save on interconnect cables, requires less space than a separate Preamp/Amp configuration
      Sometimes comes with Phono Preamp built-in
    • [Stereo] Receiver - as was explained to me, an integrated amplifier plus tuner
      Benefit: Tuner if you still listen to the radio. Typically comes with Phono Preamp as well on vintage units. Vintage units are still sometimes sought after because they can offer better sound than an entry level AVR for when 2ch/music is a priority.
    • AVR (Audio Video Receiver) - a pre/pro with integrated amplification that can process audio and video signals.
      Benefit: usually for multi-purpose/combo use, like home theater with 2ch modes.
      Good choice if space constrained and want one system for both music and HT surround, and not too concerned about getting the best 2ch quality. Also not typically recommended for speakers that work best with high current amplification. (There are exceptions, though, with some good units on the used market.) Depending on the unit quality, music over AVRs can sound thin and empty, and/or harsh and bright.

    Thanks a lot msg! Much appreciated. This helps a lot! few more noob q's ahead.

    one clarification - You mentioned a preamp - does have volume - is it always true? Am I right in saying volume is equivalent to amplification of signal?

    If that's true then the major difference between pre and power amp would be a pre does signal processing which a power amp doesn't do?

    Also, if a Pre has volume, can I not just use a pre with the speakers?

    A pre does NOT amplify the signal, it just regulates the level of the signal, i.e. volume. You CANNOT connect the pre directly to the speakers, because you will get NO sound. It also switches sources and can provide other processing like balance and tone controls. It is more common today for it to also have a DAC so you can connect digital sources and computers.

    An amp does NOT have a volume control, it only provides the amplification for the speakers. You CANNOT connect an amp directly to your speakers because if you do you will damage your speakers (and your hearing).
    Living Room 2.1: Dynaudio Contour 1.3mkii; Martin Logan Grotto sub; Musical Fidelity A308; Cambridge Azur 851N
    Game Room HT: Denon AVR-X4200w; Definitive Technology SM450; Definitive Technology LCR2000; Definitive Technology Procinema 800; Mirage Nanasats; Sub - HSU VTF-2 MK5
    Master Bedroom
    Cambridge Azur 551r; Definitive Technology StudioMonitor350; ACI Titan Subwoofer; Squeezebox Touch
  • msgmsg Posts: 5,934
    edited July 22
    snorkel4u wrote: »
    one clarification - You mentioned a preamp - does have volume - is it always true? Am I right in saying volume is equivalent to amplification of signal?

    If that's true then the major difference between pre and power amp would be a pre does signal processing which a power amp doesn't do?
    Correct, in general terms.
    snorkel4u wrote: »
    Also, if a Pre has volume, can I not just use a pre with the speakers?
    rooftop59 wrote: »
    A pre does NOT amplify the signal, it just regulates the level of the signal, i.e. volume. You CANNOT connect the pre directly to the speakers, because you will get NO sound. It also switches sources and can provide other processing like balance and tone controls. It is more common today for it to also have a DAC so you can connect digital sources and computers.

    An amp does NOT have a volume control, it only provides the amplification for the speakers. You CANNOT connect an amp directly to your speakers because if you do you will damage your speakers (and your hearing).
    A preamp will always have a volume control, or an attenuator, in other words. Just like rooftop says, a pre[amp] does not amplify the signal, per se. A preamp requires a separate amplifier in order to power the speakers.

    If talking about a phono preamp for use with a turntable, then it's a little confusing, because a phono preamp does amplify the signal from a phono cartridge, but that's not what we're talking about here. In this conversation, we're talking about preamp in the sense of source device selection and signal presentation to the power amp section.

    Break the word down: pre-amp - the part that comes before the amp. That's all it is, and you need both preamp and amp to get signal transfer and power to the speakers.

    Some amplifiers do have *level control* knobs for each channel that may seem like volume controls, but these are not the the same as a volume control. It controls the input level coming in from the preamp at the input connection point of the power amplifier. Most of the time, you'll just set these to max. You set them and leave them alone.

    I have heard stories of people who use these level knobs in a test of an amp before purchase. Using a smartphone with 3.5mm out to RCA cable into the amp with the level control knobs turned all the way down. They then connect one small speaker to the amp to test with, play something and turn up the level knobs slightly. I've never done this, and never tried it. All you need to know is that if you go with separates, you need a preamp and an amplifier, or a preamp and powered/active monitors (speakers).

    I can't really answer the question about whether "volume is equivalent to amplification of signal". It's not quite that in those terms I don't think, but it has to do with levels and gain, and I don't fully understand these terms or what exactly is going on to be able to speak on what exactly the volume knob does. I think the volume knob is just controlling the level of output voltage from the preamp channels that go into the inputs of the amplifier.

    Some of the other guys will know more about this.
    I disabled signatures.
  • polrbehrpolrbehr Posts: 2,643
    That's why I like (and own/use) my Denon AVR*. It's probably not even within shouting distance of a mid level pre/pro & amp combo, but it does all the audio/surround/video processing I need, does HDMI, has direct speaker connections, and also has preouts to allow connection to a separate amplifier (allows you to upgrade or change based on budget).
    *There are many brands that do that as well, I'm speaking from what I personally use now.

    And I agree with @msg, those RTi10s are pretty good for home theater, but there are quite a few better options for music, especially if you like decent volume for more than 5 minutes.
    So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?


    http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/
  • msgmsg Posts: 5,934
    polrbehr wrote: »
    ...also has preouts to allow connection to a separate amplifier (allows you to upgrade or change based on budget).
    Good point in not ruling out an AVR! Usually a couple of steps in from the entry level models, you can get into an AVR with preouts. Again, the used and refurb markets can really open some doors to higher level gear than one might afford buying new.
    I disabled signatures.
  • anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 2,679
    Congrats! It does look like your 667 has pre-outs and if that is true, $50 was a steal. Enjoy this setup for a while. I am not familiar with the 2400, but I did try a NAD 2200PE with the RTi10's. I did not stick with it. The 2200 had plenty more control of the speakers, but I felt life was lacking in the mids and high frequencies. My understanding is the 2400 was a rebadged 2200 with THX certification i.e. a label once they received THX approval, but basically the same amp.
  • snorkel4usnorkel4u Posts: 12
    anonymouse wrote: »
    Congrats! It does look like your 667 has pre-outs and if that is true, $50 was a steal. Enjoy this setup for a while. I am not familiar with the 2400, but I did try a NAD 2200PE with the RTi10's. I did not stick with it. The 2200 had plenty more control of the speakers, but I felt life was lacking in the mids and high frequencies. My understanding is the 2400 was a rebadged 2200 with THX certification i.e. a label once they received THX approval, but basically the same amp.

    Thanks Anonymouse,
    Yes it does have pre outs (7.2).
    In an attempt to keep tinkering with the settings to get the best output, I was going through its specs today.

    It says
    Rated Output Power (1kHz, 2ch driven) - 105W (8ohms, 0.7% THD)
    Rated Output Power (20Hz-20kHz, 2ch driven) - 90W (8ohms, 0.08% THD)
    Dynamic Power / Ch (Front L/R, 8/6/4/2 ohms) - 125/160/190/230W

    I believe what is most relevant is 20hz-20khz - 2 ch driven - 90w @8Ohms. This is what I should be expecting if I am driving my speakers in a stereo mode, Is that right?

    Thanks to the explanation in above posts I have a better idea about amplifiers (better than earlier that is) - I am thinking about keeping this AVR for Video (2.0) mode. And adding a power amplifier to it for Audio (again 2.0).

    Please correct my understanding below

    If I use the pre-outs from the 667 and plug into a 2 channel Power Amplifier and then connect my speakers to the power amp. I can use this setup for my stereo needs (Not loud music but really for clarity to enjoy classical music etc at low/ medium volumes).

    If this is true then the issue comes of switching the speaker wires every time I wish to switch between movies and music.
    If its Movies then I would just use the 667 and not use the power amp.
    If its music then I would need to turn on both the 667 and Power amp and connect the speakers to the latter.

    If the above connection is logical and harmless (to my gear), what solution do I have for the speaker cable switching issue? Any thoughts please?
    My viewing/ listening distance is 8 feet from speakers to couch (room layout diagram coming up).

    Another question - the Yamaha is Bi-Amp Capable. So are the speakers. Is there any clear instruction/ youtube video which helps me do it? Is it even worth doing it? Would I hear any significant difference? I watched some youtube vids and got mixed reactions.
  • msgmsg Posts: 5,934
    edited July 23
    You won't need to switch the speaker cables from the AVR to the amp to go between TV and music. The AVR will know that the front channels go through the preouts, and it will allocate the rest of the speaker signals through the internal amplifier. A lot of people run this way, just using a 2ch external amplifier for the front mains (left and right) and using the on board amp for the surround channels. The fewer speakers you run off the internal amp, the more power and current is available to drive those speakers.

    There are also 3-channel amps if you prefer to amplify the entire front stage, which isn't a bad idea considering that the center channel is considered one of the most important for HT.

    That is correct in that you are looking at that 2-channels-driven spec. That gets you a ballpark sense, but it doesn't tell you about the current. As mentioned above, most AVRs won't list this spec.

    Bi-amping... In the words of a funny established member, "Just forget you even thought of that."
    I disabled signatures.
  • snorkel4usnorkel4u Posts: 12
    That is great to know that the AVR would know that the front left and right via pre outs are being sent to the power amp. That saves the switching effort. What remains is to try out this connection and hear the effect. Thanks MSG
  • snorkel4usnorkel4u Posts: 12
    Got some more info on power amps/ pre amps volume control here
  • msgmsg Posts: 5,934
    That's a good discussion over at a Steve Hoffman. Good link. Those guys are talking about different ways you can set things up. Is it making sense and helping you to better understand?
    I disabled signatures.
  • snorkel4usnorkel4u Posts: 12
    ***long post alert****

    Hi All,
    Apologies for the brief AWOL!

    So the latest update on my budget rig!

    After taking inputs from you I pulled the trigger on a EMOTIVA UPA 200 2 channel power amp. It had decent reviews and more importantly had enough juice to drive my speakers and was available nearby.

    Thanks MSG for the above information about speaker connections. the seller confirmed the same would work.

    I got home and made the connections.

    667 Receiver > Emotiva 200 > RTi10

    At that time I had really cheap RCA cables which I somehow was using as speaker cables. Did some more research and decided I need to get a CD player with at least an optical out for straight sound. Picked a SONY CMT-RB5 nearby, single CD old school CD player with a mirror above the CD tray. It looks cool as you can see the CD spinning.

    Also got some monster xp 14 guage speaker wires with it.

    So now my setup is SONY CD player > 667 Receiver > Emotiva > RTi10.

    This setup sounded beautiful to me. Huge improvement because of the CD player and speaker wire. I can relate to the feedback that the polks are bright but with a little tone control I could get some decent bass. Still need to get a sub woofer (eventually). I don't really understand headroom and soundstage and other adjectives to explain sound but what I did notice was immediate clarity. The songs which I have been listening to ages growing up, I never realized they have so many other musical instruments in the background which I could now hear clearly. That was the biggest improvement I would say - no clipping either.

    And then found a sweet deal in the neighborhood for precision acoustics center channel and rear surrounds, all for 20$. I haven't connected the surrounds yet but the center channel sounds great for movies. Last night was watching netflix on low volume connected via ARC and it sounded nice and mellow.

    I will be posting a pic of my really budget system soon. The damage so far is
    Speakers 300 CAD
    Emotiva 200 Amp 200 CAD
    Yamaha 667 50 CAD
    Sony CD player + monster xp wires 10 CAD
    Center and surround 20 CAD
    High quality RCA interconnects - free with Emotiva.

    I believe some might say its not really a budget budget setup but I think its value for money right now.

    Downloaded a bunch of FLACs but now trying to find a media player. Right now I play them from my android box.

    I also noticed the sweet spots for listening to music in my setup is not really in front of the speakers. Different other corners in the house appear to get more boss.

    Some more questions : -

    1. I would like more inputs from you experts on what more can I do to improve the sound quality. I am interested in quality and clarity.

    2. I have a BOSE companion 3 series II music system as well. I am wondering is there a way to get an out from the receiver and connect it to the input ports for the BOSE. I won't use the L+R but can surely use the subwoofer.
    3. f8x0s6u6vdbv.png

    4. What do you guys use as a source for music?

    5. Am not really gunning to get better speakers but I don't mind keeping an eye in the market. I wouldn't want to part with the receiver or power AMP right now so speakers seem the likely one's to get an upgrade. What are your recommendations for speakers with the above receiver and power amp combination?

    Any other inputs.

    P.S - I watched a BD of Stomp Live on 5.1 and it sounded very good. Will soon connect the surround speakers and try it on all 5.1 channels

    Thanks for your inputs. Enjoying the music!

  • gp4jesusgp4jesus Posts: 1,529
    edited August 13
    That Bose bass module “won’t do diddly” for your system.

    RTI A7s*/RTi10s driven by a robust amp** have a good authoritative bottom end. If, and only if, you XO a sub (or subs ~35-40hz) that dig accurately to the LOW 20s, will you improve upon what you have.
    * own
    ** which you are😊


    Shop for used 10 ga speaker cable* and little budget surgery* inside wouldn’t hurt either - trust me*.

    Tony
    Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED
    Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro
    Samsung BDP, Dish Rcvr, Xbox, Phillips CD chgr

    Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside*; CC outside
    BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside* & out
    8 ga Powerline - LR woofers, inside* & out
    *soldered

    LR: tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; M&T - 981
    CC: Rotel RB985 -> tri-amped CSi A6
    5 Audio Pro Subs: 1 B1.39: an Evidence at each corner
    Surrounds: Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3
    Power Conditioning & Distribution:
    3 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 4 Furman Miniport 20s
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