Optimum speaker height for Polk LSiM 703s? (need stand recommendations)

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Landmonster
Landmonster Posts: 79
edited May 2019 in Speakers
Hi Guys.

I have my sights set on building an LSiM system. I bought the 703s, and I am impressed with them so far. I'd like to eventually move them to surround duty, and purchase 707s as mains, and build either a 5.1, 5.2, or 7.1 system.

My question is... what is the optimum height to set the 703s at? I need to buy some speaker stands.

My ears, at my regular listening position, would be between 36" and 38" off the floor, depending on my posture.

Here's a handy chart I made for the 703s:
  • Stand height 24" = Tweeter height 34.5"
  • Stand height 26" = Tweeter height 36.5"
  • Stand height 28" = Tweeter height 38.5"
  • Stand height 30" = Tweeter height 40.5"
  • Stand height 32" = Tweeter height 42.5"



Most commonly, I see people using 24" stands for main bookshelf speakers... but that doesn't quite make sense to me, as that would put the tweeter way below ear level. Also, for what it is worth, it would cause the 703 to sit substantially lower than the Polk 705 and 707 towers, which use basically the same tweeter and mid-range driver.

I don't know if Polk engineers put thought into the tweeter height on the 707, but it seems like they would have engineered it to be optimal. Or at least, not set it so high if they thought it would cause problems.

Here are my thoughts:
  1. The official Polk manual states that we should buy a 30-36" stand for the 703s... but anything over 32" seems a tad high?
  2. The 703 Manual then also states that the tweeter should be close to ear level.... however, setting the 703s on a 32" stand would mean that the tweeter would sit 42.5" off the floor, which is above most people's ear level. Conversely, this sits about the same as the LSiM 707 towers.
  3. The flagship of the Polk series, the LSiM 707 has tweeters sitting at 43" off the floor.
  4. The other tower, the Polk 705, has tweeters that sit 39" off the floor.


One last consideration, is that whatever stand I buy now, will hopefully be able to be used later when i move these 703s to surround duty.

I was thinking 32", to match the height of the LSiM 707. Is this a good idea, or the wrong line of thinking?


Thoughts?
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  • Landmonster
    Landmonster Posts: 79
    edited May 2019
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    https://www.amazon.com/TransDeco-TD32BA-Speaker-Stands-32-Inch/dp/B001PYV7LQ/ref=asc_df_B001PYV7LQ/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167157021761&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9896746056508017911&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9027208&hvtargid=pla-272319780702&psc=1

    I was looking at this stand, primarily because I liked the way it looks, and it supports alot of weight. Sadly, it only comes in a 24" and 32" variety.

    It looks like it would stylistically match the base of the 707 speakers, and it also go well with the entertainment furniture I already have.

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,794
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    About 40" give or take is the ear height for most folks.

    Those are crap stands. Compare them to these, https://www.liedtke-metalldesign.eu/Lautsprecherstaender/Boxenstaender or http://www.skylanstands.com/
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
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    F1nut wrote: »
    About 40" give or take is the ear height for most folks.

    Those are crap stands. Compare them to these, https://www.liedtke-metalldesign.eu/Lautsprecherstaender/Boxenstaender or http://www.skylanstands.com/
    Right - definitely choose better stands if they're going to permanently stay up front. If the 703s are eventually moving back to surrounds, none of those stands will get them to an optimal height, which can vary, but is generally 24" to 36" higher. So, another solution would be needed at that time.
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  • Landmonster
    Landmonster Posts: 79
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    F1nut wrote: »
    About 40" give or take is the ear height for most folks.

    Those are crap stands. Compare them to these, https://www.liedtke-metalldesign.eu/Lautsprecherstaender/Boxenstaender or http://www.skylanstands.com/

    Ehhh. For $400 for a pair of stands, plus the cost of the 703, you might as well not even buy bookshelf speakers. Just get tower speakers for nearly the same price.


    Also, skylan stands are made of wood and MDF.
    How is that superior to steel?
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  • Landmonster
    Landmonster Posts: 79
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    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    About 40" give or take is the ear height for most folks.

    Those are crap stands. Compare them to these, https://www.liedtke-metalldesign.eu/Lautsprecherstaender/Boxenstaender or http://www.skylanstands.com/
    Right - definitely choose better stands if they're going to permanently stay up front. If the 703s are eventually moving back to surrounds, none of those stands will get them to an optimal height, which can vary, but is generally 24" to 36" higher. So, another solution would be needed at that time.
    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    About 40" give or take is the ear height for most folks.

    Those are crap stands. Compare them to these, https://www.liedtke-metalldesign.eu/Lautsprecherstaender/Boxenstaender or http://www.skylanstands.com/
    Right - definitely choose better stands if they're going to permanently stay up front. If the 703s are eventually moving back to surrounds, none of those stands will get them to an optimal height, which can vary, but is generally 24" to 36" higher. So, another solution would be needed at that time.

    I'm still trying to reconcile the height. Unless it doesn't matter that much

    Exact ear height?
    Polk recommended stand height?
    Match them exact to the tower height?

    And for surround duty, does the height change?
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  • mrloren
    mrloren Posts: 2,454
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    Build some stand to your desired height.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tljB1WmfwcM

    Use this to get the height you then either make or buy quality ones

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkoiDlDFRaM
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
    Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
    Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
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  • PSOVLSK
    PSOVLSK Posts: 5,053
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    I used these and was happy with them. Are they the best? Of course not, but they did the job for me. I actually still have them in a closet since I no longer have bookies. I think mine are the 30" version and I used them with LSi7, LSi9, and LSiM703.

    https://smile.amazon.com/Sanus-SF34-B1-Steel-Foundation-Black/dp/B004STEH44/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?crid=2OIHUYXFE024S&keywords=sanus+-+steel+foundations+series+bookshelf+speaker+stands&qid=1558106851&s=gateway&sprefix=steel+foundation+speak,aps,209&sr=8-1-fkmr0
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  • codycatalist
    codycatalist Posts: 2,662
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    Landmonster wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    About 40" give or take is the ear height for most folks.

    Those are crap stands. Compare them to these, https://www.liedtke-metalldesign.eu/Lautsprecherstaender/Boxenstaender or http://www.skylanstands.com/

    Ehhh. For $400 for a pair of stands, plus the cost of the 703, you might as well not even buy bookshelf speakers. Just get tower speakers for nearly the same price.


    Also, skylan stands are made of wood and MDF.
    How is that superior to steel?

    Do you see any speakers made out of steel? That's probably for a reason like reverberation. Same idea with stands.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,794
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    Landmonster wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    About 40" give or take is the ear height for most folks.

    Those are crap stands. Compare them to these, https://www.liedtke-metalldesign.eu/Lautsprecherstaender/Boxenstaender or http://www.skylanstands.com/

    Ehhh. For $400 for a pair of stands, plus the cost of the 703, you might as well not even buy bookshelf speakers. Just get tower speakers for nearly the same price.


    Also, skylan stands are made of wood and MDF.
    How is that superior to steel?

    There are a multitude of reasons people prefer bookshelf speakers. Unfortunately, many don't give a second thought about the stands, which actually are an integral part. Therefore, buying quality stands is very important.

    Skylan stands are not made of wood. They are PVC and MDF, which do not resonate or ring like metal. However, Skylan and Liedtke-Metalldesign stands are designed to be mass loaded, which is key to a proper stand. So, once mass loaded both types become acoustically inert and a rock solid base for the speakers.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Landmonster
    Landmonster Posts: 79
    edited May 2019
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    codycatalist wrote: »
    Landmonster wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    About 40" give or take is the ear height for most folks.

    Those are crap stands. Compare them to these, https://www.liedtke-metalldesign.eu/Lautsprecherstaender/Boxenstaender or http://www.skylanstands.com/

    Ehhh. For $400 for a pair of stands, plus the cost of the 703, you might as well not even buy bookshelf speakers. Just get tower speakers for nearly the same price.


    Also, skylan stands are made of wood and MDF.
    How is that superior to steel?

    Do you see any speakers made out of steel? That's probably for a reason like reverberation. Same idea with stands.

    What if you massloaded a steel stand with sand? Still not as optimal as a Skylan stand loaded with sand?
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  • Landmonster
    Landmonster Posts: 79
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    F1nut wrote: »
    Landmonster wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    About 40" give or take is the ear height for most folks.

    Those are crap stands. Compare them to these, https://www.liedtke-metalldesign.eu/Lautsprecherstaender/Boxenstaender or http://www.skylanstands.com/

    Ehhh. For $400 for a pair of stands, plus the cost of the 703, you might as well not even buy bookshelf speakers. Just get tower speakers for nearly the same price.


    Also, skylan stands are made of wood and MDF.
    How is that superior to steel?

    There are a multitude of reasons people prefer bookshelf speakers. Unfortunately, many don't give a second thought about the stands, which actually are an integral part. Therefore, buying quality stands is very important.

    Skylan stands are not made of wood. They are PVC and MDF, which do not resonate or ring like metal. However, Skylan and Liedtke-Metalldesign stands are designed to be mass loaded, which is key to a proper stand. So, once mass loaded both types become acoustically inert and a rock solid base for the speakers.

    I'm not saying you're incorrect necessarily. But if you have to add $400 or so to to cost of the 703s for decent stands, you could almost get the 705s.

    I can't imagine the stands themselves will have any residual resale value, If you ever get rid of them
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,794
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    That's good because I am 100% correct.

    Like I said, many people prefer bookshelf speakers and the knowledgeable ones realize the stands are equally important.

    Crappy stands don't, good ones do.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Hermitism
    Hermitism Posts: 4,204
    edited May 2019
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    You can always buy good quality new old stock or used stands at a discount. A lot of people here have purchased higher end stands on the used market. I think $150 used would be an accurate price. Mass loading: $5 for 50 pounds play sand, if you want to go the extra step: lead ain't cheap, probably $100 for 50 pounds. So around $250 you've got good solid stands that you can hide next to during an earthquake.

    edit: I have 703s mounted on 30" stands. The tweeters are slightly above ear level, but close to ear level. My new listening chair sits lower than my last.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,430
    edited May 2019
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    Bottom line here is to be informed, and then make your decision based on whatever your budget and goals are.

    I've mass loaded metal three sets of stands. The idea is to prevent rocking and movement of the stand, and to stop the stand from siphoning off sound energy. This is what happens when stands are not mass loaded, and wiggle around or transmit sound/vibration down the stand. It is especially prevalent with steel stands.

    Rigid, damped stands on spikes = tight, optimal speaker performance.

    Another decent set to consider on a budget is the Pangea DS-400. They're still a little pricey for the build quality, and these feel really cheap and tingy until they're mass loaded. After filling with just Play Sand, they're significantly heavier. The four-column design makes them relatively rigid. Here's a link to a little write-up I did.
    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/170506/pangea-speaker-stands-build-ds300-28-inch/p1

    And then Hermitism took this a bit further, because he's a boot-wearing, soulpatch-sporting overachiever:
    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/179906/mass-loading-ultimate-foundations-stands

    I've also used the Sanus SF-26, and the Sanus UF series, though the UF are no longer manufactured, so you'd have to find some used. They have a composite base plate which helps even more with rigidity and damping. For heavy bookshelf speakers like the LSiM 703, the SF-26 can be a little wiggly, but it'll work. I think this effect would be amplified with taller stands.

    Each of these can be mass loaded. I used only sand the first two builds, and the last set I added in lead shot into the mix.
    Post edited by msg on
    I disabled signatures.
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  • Landmonster
    Landmonster Posts: 79
    edited May 2019
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    DSkip wrote: »
    There is nothing wrong with resonant materials. If done right, its actually preferred. Unfortunately in these cheap stands it isn't done right.

    I have some fundamental issues with some information provided here but the truth is it isn't cheap to 'do it right' and the advice given can be good enhancements when budget is tight.

    The problem with speaker stands, platforms, and even racks is that people don't realize how much it actually influences the sound. It's a matter of basic physics and if you begin to build on those fundamentals it becomes obvious how important this aspect is. Even then, its hard for people to perceive the value of the investment when they could 'roll' that money into active components.

    The problem with sand and lead is that they are absorptive materials and that will not only absorb the energy from the stands, but also absorbs musical energy and will deaden your sound some. In these instances, the net gains of sand/lead are still beneficial and I'm not sure you could do better with a few bills to throw around. Absorption takes time to happen so it can muddy up the sound, but the amount of energy being absorbed is much greater in this instance.


    To put it into perspective Landmonster, the stands I used for AXPONA and LSAF retail north of $4,000. Their cost is due to them being instruments. They are designed to resonate, but they also have technology built into them that allows these resonances to ground themselves. The transfer of energy is instant so it retains clarity and maximum transient response. For something as simple as a speaker stand, there is actually decades of research and development in the final product.

    You can also see the platform and rack system built around the same principles for electronics in the picture as well.


    ES000161.jpg?fit=1700%2C763

    Thank you for your input.

    I am new to all this, so I need some bottom-line recommendations. I'm sure other people would too, since the 703 is a popular speaker.


    1) First of all... how high do I want everything off the floor?     (My ear-height is 37" off the floor, in my current chairs) I have to decide what height of a stand to buy, or to make, before anything else.

    1A) Followup:
    So what is the the textbook layout these days for the latest surround formats? I'd like to know the height of the mains, vs surrounds, vs side speakers, according to engineers and such, if you could make it all perfect. Do you want every speaker equal in height, or do you want some of the channels staggered higher than others?

    2) What is the best budget/compromise speaker stand material, since I cannot spend $4k on a pair of speaker stands? These are only $600 speakers after all... but I would like them to sound as good as they realistically can. Steel stands, massloaded with sand, lead, or something else? What about a pad, or topping material to put on top of a stand between the speaker?





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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited May 2019
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    Has anyone tried concrete stands?

    http://www.framefurniture.net/shop-galapagos/speaker-stands
    Phil+3.070235_web.jpg?format=750w

    Concrete-DIY-Speaker-Stand.jpg

    IMG_0126.jpg
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  • Landmonster
    Landmonster Posts: 79
    edited May 2019
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    DSkip wrote: »

    I usually prefer the woofer at ear level. For me this seems to provide the best balance of clarity and tone. With the 703 and its unique design though, I'm not certain and I haven't spent enough time with height adjustments to comment.

    As for $600 speakers, don't kid yourself (no offense intended). They are easily $1000-1200 speakers that are being sold for much less. I always thought the LSiM series needed a 20% reduction in price to be competitive in the market.

    In the end, do what you feel is best. You haven't gotten any bad feedback and unfortunately options under four figures just aren't exceptional for speaker stands. The reality is that any option will fit you fine as the finer details of my original post will be hidden by other bottlenecks in the system.

    Then... if what you say is true, the Polk manual is basically correct - You'd want 30" to 36" stands for the 703s.

    A 32" stand puts the 703's woofer close to ear level, with the tweeter about 5-6" above ear level.

    I have played with it a bit in my room. I set the speakers on 24" end tables, then stacked books beneath them to make 30", and 32".

    (These are probably the worst possible "stands", as my wooden end tables are hollow on the inside, and the front lip of the table extends out about 1" from the bottom of the speaker.)

    ---> 24" puts the tweeters at 34.5" off the floor, and it sounds "okay"... although it leaves a closed-in feeling soundstage without much height.
    --- >30 and 32" puts the tweeters at 40.5 and 42.5" off the floor respectively, and it opens up the whole soundstage, and it feels like the speakers are hitting you more directly in the ear. Even my wife noticed a fairly large difference, and said they sounded louder and more clear.

    Setting them at 30/32 seems to give everything a feeling of more spaciousness. However, I can't help but feel like it's missing a little something down low, but that could be because I'm not running any sub-woofers with them, and my "stands" suck.


    I have 10 foot ceilings in my room, so that is something to consider, if it matters.

    I was looking at just getting 32" stands for now, and putting the bookshelves on them as mains. I'd buy the 707 towers soon, and move the 32" stands with bookshelves to surround duty. That way, all 4 tweeters would be at exactly the same height. Is this a good idea, or bad idea, for modern surround mixes? My receiver does Atmos, Neural:X, DTS:X, etc.

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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
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    Everything is a ballpark, especially in HT. No need to measure precise inches. You might have a target, but sometimes the real world interferes and you're stuck above or below whatever someone else says is optimal. Is everyone you're likely to watch a movie with the exact same height?? ;)

    Generally, surrounds have always worked better for me at a height of 2-3 ft above ear level, depending on the distance from the seating position - at the lower end if closer, and the higher end if farther.
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
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    Atmos only comes into play if you install Atmos speakers in-ceiling, buy Atmos-enabled speakers, or add Atmos add-on speakers. Polk doesn't offer the latter two options.
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  • Landmonster
    Landmonster Posts: 79
    edited May 2019
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    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    Atmos only comes into play if you install Atmos speakers in-ceiling, buy Atmos-enabled speakers, or add Atmos add-on speakers. Polk doesn't offer the latter two options.

    I noticed that :( I wonder if they are going to some some add-ons to the LSiM line?

    My room is likely going to be a 5.1 or 5.2 setup, as I just don't have enough usable space on the side walls for a 7 channel system. The rear channels will have to be fairly close behind the listening position as well.

    It is a standard living room. I have enough space on the sides for a 7 channel system, but the room layout does not permit having speakers there, as one side is open to the bar in our kitchen, and the other side is full of windows. To construct a 7-ch system, I'd have to have a speaker on the kitchen counter, or blocking access to it, which would be stupid. I could add in-ceiling speakers, I suppose, if any match the system.
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
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    5.1 is all that is needed. Anything more is to sell more gear for the manufacturers.
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  • Thorton
    Thorton Posts: 1,324
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    My basement is over 10,000 cu. Ft. 5.1 was OK. 7.1 blows it away. I would never go back to 5.1.

    For a smaller room, 5.1 would probably be all that is needed.
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
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    Okay. Let’s say for typical rooms, 5.1 is all that is needed. Then again, some will argue more is better. So, pick your poison. :)

    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
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    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited May 2019
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    My layout is very similar to Landmonster's, I'm basically sitting underneath my back speakers, and no place to put side speakers. But I have a 5.2 system and it rocks. Having two subs equalizes the bass no matter where I sit.
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  • mrloren
    mrloren Posts: 2,454
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    cfrizz wrote: »
    My layout is very similar to Landmonster's, I'm basically sitting underneath my back speakers, and no place to put side speakers. But I have a 5.2 system and it rocks. Having two subs equalizes the bass no matter where I sit.

    My surrounds too are just a few feet away right above ear level

    sf2v6wj1ww31.jpg

    No more room back there


    I need to find a way to add dual dubs. I have limited space but do have ideas. maybe next year.

    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
    Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited May 2019
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    mrloren wrote: »
    I need to find a way to add dual dubs.
    In floor or ceiling venting, infinite baffle are options some have used.
    https://www.audioholics.com/diy-audio/hidden-in-floor-in-ceiling-subwoofer-installation

    Also, some have made side, coffee, cocktail table subs.

    IMG_20150325_131552.jpg

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    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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