SDA effect

How can I test to see if SDA effect is working?

Best Answer

  • codycatalistcodycatalist Posts: 2,535
    Accepted Answer
    Use your balance knob if you have one. Turn the knob all the way to the right and the left speaker should only be playing from the outside MW. Repeat for the other speaker.
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Answers

  • FestYboyFestYboy Posts: 3,701
    Another thing I noticed: if you sit directly in front of one speaker, you will hear a nearly full stereo sound from just one speaker. At least that's what I hear with my SRS 2s with the dimensional tweet.
  • SchurkeySchurkey Posts: 1,894
    F1nut wrote: »
    It's not an effect, it's cross talk cancellation.
    Cross-talk cancellation is the effect created by having out-of-phase information from the opposite channel played from about the same distance as our ears are separated, outside the "stereo" information presented by each stereo speaker cabinet.

    Of course it's an effect. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have been patentable.

  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,397
    Schurkey wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    It's not an effect, it's cross talk cancellation.
    Cross-talk cancellation is the effect created by having out-of-phase information from the opposite channel played from about the same distance as our ears are separated, outside the "stereo" information presented by each stereo speaker cabinet.

    Of course it's an effect. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have been patentable.

    It creates a "Headphone" effect, or quite similar, if you sit exactly in the center.

    It is an arguable idea, as it assumes a particular recording style, that is rarely used.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
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  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,571
    Schurkey wrote: »
    Of course it's an effect. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have been patentable.

    The basic definition of "effect" (noun) is "a change which is a result or consequence of an action or other cause."

    In that regard, a light bulb shining as a result of flipping a light switch to the on position could correctly be called "the light switch effect".

    In the context of audio and video applications, the term "effect" typically means something artificial added to a signal, for example "sound effects", "special effects", "visual effects".

    Comb filtering is an unfortunate effect of rendering a naturally occurring point source of sound from two sources. Crosstalk cancellation, in the context of stereo reproduction, would more accurately be called a signal correction, or corrective process, rather than an "effect".

    Rather than asking "is the SDA effect working", it would have been more contextually correct to ask "is the SDA working". Some automobile engines run so smoothly and some car interiors are so well insulated that is is difficult to tell whether the engine is running or not. You wouldn't ask "is the engine effect working?". You would ask is the engine running?".

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  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,397
    F1nut wrote: »
    It's not an effect, it's cross talk cancellation. It's easy to test just disconnect the SDA cable. The sound stage will collapse. Reconnect the cable and it will expand.

    Stereo is an effect.
    Cross talk cancellation is an effect.
    There is a "Headphone" effect.

    They are all artificially heard in our heads, but not REAL.
    That is why they are called EFFECTS.

    A real world sound source is REAL

    Everything else is artificially created images. Effect.

    Stereo is a "Stereo effect"
    SDA is a "cross cancellation effect"




    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
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  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,397
    edited March 12
    .
    Post edited by K_M on
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
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    Infinity-Sold
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    Yamaha RX-V377
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  • motorhead43026motorhead43026 Posts: 3,289
    edited March 12
    And we have the K_M effect.
    2 channel: Anthem 225 Integrated amp; Parasound Ztuner; TechnicsTT SL1350; Vincent PHO-8 phono pre; Marantz CD6005 spinner; Polk SDA2BTL's; Cables ZU Mission IC's, SC and power cords, all into a PS Audio Dectet Power center.

    All TV's sound enhanced by Polk Magnfi Mini's.

    Other; S60'S, M10 series II, M7C's, Hafler XL600 amp, RB-980BX, Parasound HCA-1500 amp , P5 preamp, all in storage. All speakers have had crossover rebuilds, resulting in a small fortune invested in Sonicaps, and tweeter upgrades.

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  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 14,349
    K_M wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    It's not an effect, it's cross talk cancellation. It's easy to test just disconnect the SDA cable. The sound stage will collapse. Reconnect the cable and it will expand.

    Stereo is an effect.
    Cross talk cancellation is an effect.
    There is a "Headphone" effect.

    They are all artificially heard in our heads, but not REAL.
    That is why they are called EFFECTS.

    A real world sound source is REAL

    Everything else is artificially created images. Effect.

    Stereo is a "Stereo effect"
    SDA is a "cross cancellation effect"




    According to your analogy then sound itself would be an "effect"

  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,397
    edited March 12
    .
    Post edited by K_M on
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
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  • SchurkeySchurkey Posts: 1,894
    edited March 12
    And K_M's drivel does not EFFECT me at all.
    Perhaps not...but it does seem to affect you.

  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,397
    Maybe I need to ask this in a different manner: Is the SDA engine running? Lol

    SDA uses a crosstalk cancellation effect.
    They are trying to say that the Terms SDA "Stereo dimensional array" is not an effect, which is true, it refers to what the speaker uses to create the actual crosstalk cancellation effect.

    The tail wagging the dog.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
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  • SchurkeySchurkey Posts: 1,894
    Schurkey wrote: »
    Of course it's an effect. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have been patentable.

    The basic definition of "effect" (noun) is "a change which is a result or consequence of an action or other cause."
    This is exactly my point. If one devises a method of crosstalk cancellation, and that method works...the result or consequence of that action is to effectively cancel the crosstalk when that method is in use or functional.

    If that crosstalk cancellation method goes by a certain trade-name, we could readily call this the..."SDA Effect".

  • decaldecal Posts: 3,172
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    If you can't hear a difference, don't waste your money.
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 6,437
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  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,397
    edited March 12
    Schurkey wrote: »
    Schurkey wrote: »
    Of course it's an effect. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have been patentable.

    The basic definition of "effect" (noun) is "a change which is a result or consequence of an action or other cause."
    This is exactly my point. If one devises a method of crosstalk cancellation, and that method works...the result or consequence of that action is to effectively cancel the crosstalk when that method is in use or functional.

    If that crosstalk cancellation method goes by a certain trade-name, we could readily call this the..."SDA Effect".

    Again, I went back many years on the forum and pretty much that is how it is referred
    The "SDA Effect".... and no one back then argued it was not an "Effect"

    What changed? ...Seems semantics and a need to argue over nothing.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,012
    edited March 12
    ... and of course, Bob Carver did essentially the same thing at line level via the "Sonic Holography [Effect]" :)
    https://www.bobcarvercorp.com/about-us

    t2xn2pasical.png
    (borrowed image, needless to say)
    Sonic Holography
    "Sonic Holography", as described was first incorporated in the Carver C4000 preamplifier. It enhances stereo imaging by introducing a delayed and equalized signal from the right channel at the left loudspeaker to cancel the signal from the right loudspeaker at the listener's left ear (and vice versa).
    In the real world, a sound produces a two sound arrivals, one for our left ear and one for our right. Stereo speakers produce FOUR sound arrivals. Each ear gets a delayed second arrival that muddies the sound stage. Through special processing circuitry, Sonic Holography cancel the second arrival, restoring clarity and realism.
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,397
    edited March 12
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    ... and of course, Bob Carver did essentially the same thing at line level via the "Sonic Holography [Effect]" :)
    https://www.bobcarvercorp.com/about-us


    (borrowed image, needless to say)
    Sonic Holography
    "Sonic Holography", as described was first incorporated in the Carver C4000 preamplifier. It enhances stereo imaging by introducing a delayed and equalized signal from the right channel at the left loudspeaker to cancel the signal from the right loudspeaker at the listener's left ear (and vice versa).
    In the real world, a sound produces a two sound arrivals, one for our left ear and one for our right. Stereo speakers produce FOUR sound arrivals. Each ear gets a delayed second arrival that muddies the sound stage. Through special processing circuitry, Sonic Holography cancel the second arrival, restoring clarity and realism.

    There was also the "Hafler Circuit/Effect" that is essentially what SDA is as far as wiring, but was meant for rear surround speakers, instead of crosstalk cancellation.

    We have used the hafler set up in one system and love it. Very simple, but very effective.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
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  • xschopxschop Posts: 1,074
    So how does the SDA 'effect' change technically when you position a set of CRS+ vertical? Sonically, the soundstage narrows from my experimenting.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,012
    edited March 12
    David Hafler's "Dynaquad" effect ;) extracts the out of phase information to (re) create ambience.

    Simple but effective; not the same thing as SDA/Sonic Holography.

    Hafler/Dynaco QD-1

    dtqey6kngjd1.png
    come to think of it, there's a QD-1 box sittin' not six feet from me even as I type this.

    Generic "Hafler" wiring.

    s79oq5pn2ujt.png

    (in practice, some level adjustment of the 'ambience' channel is a value-add)
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,397
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    David Hafler's "Dynaquad" effect ;) extracts the out of phase information to (re) create ambience.

    Simple but effective; not the same thing as SDA/Sonic Holography.


    Generic "Hafler" wiring.

    s79oq5pn2ujt.png

    (in practice, some level adjustment of the 'ambience' channel is a value-add)

    The generic hafler wiring is essentially how the Dimensional speakers are wired in SDA, and if you want to try it as we did, simply bring the "rear" speakers of the hafler set up to the front and position them next to the normal stereo speakers and it sounds for all intents just like SDA or very close.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Epos-Now gone
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
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    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • xschopxschop Posts: 1,074
    K_M wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    David Hafler's "Dynaquad" effect ;) extracts the out of phase information to (re) create ambience.

    Simple but effective; not the same thing as SDA/Sonic Holography.


    Generic "Hafler" wiring.

    s79oq5pn2ujt.png

    (in practice, some level adjustment of the 'ambience' channel is a value-add)

    The generic hafler wiring is essentially how the Dimensional speakers are wired in SDA, and if you want to try it as we did, simply bring the "rear" speakers of the hafler set up to the front and position them next to the normal stereo speakers and it sounds for all intents just like SDA or very close.

    How would the out-of-phase signal be produced in this set-up?
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,397
    edited March 12
    xschop wrote: »
    K_M wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    David Hafler's "Dynaquad" effect ;) extracts the out of phase information to (re) create ambience.

    Simple but effective; not the same thing as SDA/Sonic Holography.


    Generic "Hafler" wiring.

    s79oq5pn2ujt.png

    (in practice, some level adjustment of the 'ambience' channel is a value-add)

    The generic hafler wiring is essentially how the Dimensional speakers are wired in SDA, and if you want to try it as we did, simply bring the "rear" speakers of the hafler set up to the front and position them next to the normal stereo speakers and it sounds for all intents just like SDA or very close.

    How would the out-of-phase signal be produced in this set-up?

    SDA is not out of phase, it is the "Difference signal" L-R and R-L

    The sda cable, is what connects the left and right dimensional speakers together and they are then both hooked up across the two positive terminals.

    Just like in the "Generic Hafler" circuit.
    Anything not common or on both the left and right, gets sent to the "rear" hafler speakers as they are joined at their negatives.

    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
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    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • gmcmangmcman Posts: 1,488
    K_M wrote: »
    It creates a "Headphone" effect, or quite similar, if you sit exactly in the center.

    I don't understand this.

    Headphones receive their signal from the source, preamp, or a seperate headphone amp. The crosstalk has not been cancelled or at least, minimized. Each ear would receive the same signal as the speaker BEFORE any crosstalk cancellation.

    SDA speakers create a far more realistic presentation than headphones.

    The singer may appear in the center with headphones, but IMO, SDA and headphones are not similiar.

  • xschopxschop Posts: 1,074
    edited March 12
    IIRC, the later CRS+ crossovers attenuated the SDA drivers up to 1k Hz to be more efficient at the crosstalk cancellation "effect". They also used the sub-bass inductors to keep the bass signal of SDA drivers "in-phase" with stereo drivers.
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,397
    xschop wrote: »
    IIRC, the later CRS+ crossovers attenuated the SDA drivers up to 1k Hz to be more efficient at the crosstalk cancellation "effect". They also used the sub-bass inductors to keep the bass signal of SDA drivers "in-phase" with stereo drivers.

    Yes inductors are used on most all SDA's not so much to keep bass "in phase", but all bass is lost when connected across positive terminals, AND bass usually being mostly equal in both channels of "most" recordings.

    So the SDA wiring effectively removes all bass since is is shared on both channels (usually) but the inductors "fix" that.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Epos-Now gone
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
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    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
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    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
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    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,012
    Some folks take sort of the opposite approach with headphones to minimize the "hole in the middle of one's head" effect. :)
    https://www.head-fi.org/threads/what-is-crossfeed.233288/
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,397
    gmcman wrote: »
    K_M wrote: »
    It creates a "Headphone" effect, or quite similar, if you sit exactly in the center.

    I don't understand this.

    Headphones receive their signal from the source, preamp, or a seperate headphone amp. The crosstalk has not been cancelled or at least, minimized. Each ear would receive the same signal as the speaker BEFORE any crosstalk cancellation.

    SDA speakers create a far more realistic presentation than headphones.

    The singer may appear in the center with headphones, but IMO, SDA and headphones are not similiar.

    Crosstalk cancellation is what SDA does, and what your head does when wearing headphones.

    Realistic is another thing.
    That would depend on what the intent of the original recording was.
    If it was mixed on headphones, then headphones would be ideal.

    Most recordings are mixed to sound "right" on stereo speakers.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Epos-Now gone
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

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