Any owner updates on Carver Crimson 275 stereo tube power amplifier for 2019?

1235

Comments

  • stretchlstretchl Posts: 1,299
    @oldrocker re: “FWIW, I love to go into the specifics but as stated earlier I made a promise to the manufacturer and I will keep my word.”

    At this point, it might be very educational for us if you and the manufacturer would be willing to nullify that NDA. I think I, for one (hopefully there are more), could learn a lot from hearing that story. I totally understand if u don’t want to go there. Just thinking out loud here.

    Also, as I read @FMalitz’s bit about Geoff Poor, I was sitting on a bus en route to work, at a stop light about 150 feet from Glen Poor’s Audio Video. It was right across a small parking lot.

    I’m in the process of acquiring a pair of Odyssey monoblocks, so I’m not really in the market for another amp. But I might pop into GP’s over spring break and ask about an in home audition. I live, literally, less than 1/2 mile from them.

    Honestly the only thing that’s stopping me is worry that they’ll dis my listening room set up or my LSiM-705’s. Maybe I should let go of that feeling?

    s59zjrm6u27p.png
    “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'
    - Isaac Asimov

    Hi-Fi
    Apple Lossless --> Squeezebox Touch --> Joule Electra LA-100 Mark iii --> Yaqin MC-10t --> LSiM-705's
    Cabling by Groneberg
    Visuals
    http://StretchPhotography.com
    http://Vimeo.com/channels/stretchphoto
  • halohalo Posts: 5,285
    stretchl wrote: »


    Honestly the only thing that’s stopping me is worry that they’ll dis my listening room set up or my LSiM-705’s. Maybe I should let go of that feeling?

    The LSiM 703's are a Stereophile recommended bookshelf speaker. The 705 is a "step up" from that so I don't see why they'd thumb their noses at you. From what I heard, they don't seem to be that type of place. IF they are, that's their problem, not yours.
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,722
    I think there is a general ignorance of the LSIM series in hifi shops, that product seems to be web based in success and not really anything a boutique dealer would carry. Just my Op.
    That was the general consensus I got when looking for amps for the 705's my last time around.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61 - AQ Niagara 5000 - SVS SB16u
  • oldrockeroldrocker Posts: 2,235
    stretchl wrote: »
    @oldrocker re: “FWIW, I love to go into the specifics but as stated earlier I made a promise to the manufacturer and I will keep my word.”

    At this point, it might be very educational for us if you and the manufacturer would be willing to nullify that NDA. I think I, for one (hopefully there are more), could learn a lot from hearing that story. I totally understand if u don’t want to go there. Just thinking out loud here.

    Also, as I read @FMalitz’s bit about Geoff Poor, I was sitting on a bus en route to work, at a stop light about 150 feet from Glen Poor’s Audio Video. It was right across a small parking lot.

    I’m in the process of acquiring a pair of Odyssey monoblocks, so I’m not really in the market for another amp. But I might pop into GP’s over spring break and ask about an in home audition. I live, literally, less than 1/2 mile from them.

    Honestly the only thing that’s stopping me is worry that they’ll dis my listening room set up or my LSiM-705’s. Maybe I should let go of that feeling?

    s59zjrm6u27p.png

    I'd assume Jeff does in home auditions as when I used to call there, sometimes he would be out doing installs and whatnots. He always called me back.

    They do have a nice separate listening area you can use, be sure to take some cd's with you. He was very open minded to switch in out various speakers.

    When I was there, he put on some music, handed me the remote, left the room closing the door and said "enjoy".

    I never had an issue with Jeff, he's a nice guy.

    I have no doubt in my mind Jeff will NOT dis your listening area if he does do in home auditions.

  • stretchlstretchl Posts: 1,299
    Thanks, guys. :)
    “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'
    - Isaac Asimov

    Hi-Fi
    Apple Lossless --> Squeezebox Touch --> Joule Electra LA-100 Mark iii --> Yaqin MC-10t --> LSiM-705's
    Cabling by Groneberg
    Visuals
    http://StretchPhotography.com
    http://Vimeo.com/channels/stretchphoto
  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 21,600
    stretchl wrote: »
    Also, as I read @FMalitz’s bit about Geoff Poor, I was sitting on a bus en route to work, at a stop light about 150 feet from Glen Poor’s Audio Video. It was right across a small parking lot.

    I really need to thank you for doing your part to help in the fight against global warming by taking the bus. If everyone did that, or perhaps used one of those new scooters, we might be able to make a difference.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Goldfinger Diamond v2 cartridge and Origin Conquerer Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X0.2 three chassis preamp, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-LX701, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds.

    Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.

    “If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,637
    stretchl wrote: »
    Also, as I read @FMalitz’s bit about Geoff Poor, I was sitting on a bus en route to work, at a stop light about 150 feet from Glen Poor’s Audio Video. It was right across a small parking lot.

    I really need to thank you for doing your part to help in the fight against global warming by taking the bus. If everyone did that, or perhaps used one of those new scooters, we might be able to make a difference.

    You forgot electric vehicles.
    You're welcome.

    B)
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,637
    On a slightly more serious note -- I did my part by retiring. Much less carbon emission from me.
  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 21,600
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    You forgot electric vehicles.
    You're welcome.

    B)

    I didn't forget them... They are not as green as we have been led to believe, and that is why I left them out. Ideally, we should all have jobs within walking or bicycle distance from home anyway.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Goldfinger Diamond v2 cartridge and Origin Conquerer Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X0.2 three chassis preamp, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-LX701, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds.

    Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.

    “If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,637
  • stretchlstretchl Posts: 1,299
    edited March 7
    Well, thank you for that, but the fact is that it costs me a dollar an hour to park at school, the bus is free with a university ID, I can keep up with you crazy cats by reading the forum while I ride and my office is only 2 miles from my house, so it's not 100% due to the goal of minimizing my carbon footprint. :)
    stretchl wrote: »
    Also, as I read @FMalitz’s bit about Geoff Poor, I was sitting on a bus en route to work, at a stop light about 150 feet from Glen Poor’s Audio Video. It was right across a small parking lot.

    I really need to thank you for doing your part to help in the fight against global warming by taking the bus. If everyone did that, or perhaps used one of those new scooters, we might be able to make a difference.
    “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'
    - Isaac Asimov

    Hi-Fi
    Apple Lossless --> Squeezebox Touch --> Joule Electra LA-100 Mark iii --> Yaqin MC-10t --> LSiM-705's
    Cabling by Groneberg
    Visuals
    http://StretchPhotography.com
    http://Vimeo.com/channels/stretchphoto
  • MagnaryderMagnaryder Posts: 16
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    You forgot electric vehicles.
    You're welcome.

    B)

    I didn't forget them... They are not as green as we have been led to believe, and that is why I left them out. Ideally, we should all have jobs within walking or bicycle distance from home anyway.
    I for one like to drive, I mean I really like to drive. I like big engines that burn non-renewable at an alarming rate. Huge carburetors that while filling you can watch the gas gauge drop like a stone. Yeah, that’s a car. Smoke fat tires for a couple of blocks.

    And I like the small town I live in, I don’t like the place I work.

    ray

    Sorry that’s not got anything to do with audio except a hot car needs an earth shaking stereo too!

    Ray Campbell
    Bucyrus, Ohio
    Carver Research Lightstar.....words fail me
  • MagnaryderMagnaryder Posts: 16
    Bob would recommend finding a CD player with a tubed output stage, but likely not something in the ultra high-end because as an engineer and physicist, he would not see a need for something that simply reads one's and zero's

    That’s not quite the case. Bob has spent many hours listening to my rig. I don’t take a CD player to TheFest, I take a computer and play HiRez files thru my Schiit Yggdrasil. He knows and appreciates the sonic differences that competent gear brings to the table.

    ray
    Ray Campbell
    Bucyrus, Ohio
    Carver Research Lightstar.....words fail me
  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 21,600
    Have you seen Bobs cdp? :p
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Goldfinger Diamond v2 cartridge and Origin Conquerer Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X0.2 three chassis preamp, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-LX701, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds.

    Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.

    “If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 13,168
    No one has.

    It is non existent.

    Tom
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.

    ~ When the law ends, tyranny begins ~
  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 13,168
    Ray did have a rather nice LP player there that year....TBT

    Tom
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.

    ~ When the law ends, tyranny begins ~
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,652
    Magnaryder wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    You forgot electric vehicles.
    You're welcome.

    B)

    I didn't forget them... They are not as green as we have been led to believe, and that is why I left them out. Ideally, we should all have jobs within walking or bicycle distance from home anyway.
    I for one like to drive, I mean I really like to drive. I like big engines that burn non-renewable at an alarming rate. Huge carburetors that while filling you can watch the gas gauge drop like a stone. Yeah, that’s a car. Smoke fat tires for a couple of blocks.

    And I like the small town I live in, I don’t like the place I work.

    ray

    Sorry that’s not got anything to do with audio except a hot car needs an earth shaking stereo too!

    Cool man, an old world dual Holly double pumpers sittin' up on a high rise manifold kinda guy......I dig it.

    Though that gas gauge moves like a bottle of Coke with a fat kid and a straw at the end. :) The hay day of American muscle cars, some of the best memories one can have.

    Back on topic.....

    Here's my only concern with the 275. Seems Bob has put some proprietary design into it, should something go south, who would you send it to to get worked on ? You couldn't take it to a local shop, or am I wrong on that ?

    I'm aware of one carver authorized place, but are they also authorized for repairs on the 275 ? Not asking to bust anyones chops, just want to know for myself because these things register in part for some peoples buying decisions.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1430
    Tad 803 speakers
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,637
    edited March 8
    tonyb wrote: »
    Magnaryder wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    You forgot electric vehicles.
    You're welcome.

    B)

    I didn't forget them... They are not as green as we have been led to believe, and that is why I left them out. Ideally, we should all have jobs within walking or bicycle distance from home anyway.
    I for one like to drive, I mean I really like to drive. I like big engines that burn non-renewable at an alarming rate. Huge carburetors that while filling you can watch the gas gauge drop like a stone. Yeah, that’s a car. Smoke fat tires for a couple of blocks.

    And I like the small town I live in, I don’t like the place I work.

    ray

    Sorry that’s not got anything to do with audio except a hot car needs an earth shaking stereo too!

    Cool man, an old world dual Holly double pumpers sittin' up on a high rise manifold kinda guy......I dig it.

    Though that gas gauge moves like a bottle of Coke with a fat kid and a straw at the end. :) The hay day of American muscle cars, some of the best memories one can have.

    Back on topic.....

    Here's my only concern with the 275. Seems Bob has put some proprietary design into it, should something go south, who would you send it to to get worked on ? You couldn't take it to a local shop, or am I wrong on that ?

    I'm aware of one carver authorized place, but are they also authorized for repairs on the 275 ? Not asking to bust anyones chops, just want to know for myself because these things register in part for some peoples buying decisions.

    The only likely proprietary design component that would be challenging in terms of service would be the output transformers. The OPTs are clearly proprietary, as no normal PP OPT could handle 75 watts continuous output from 20 to 20 kHz and be as small and light as the OPTs in this amplifier.

    In the case of an OPT failure -- if one OPT bought the farm, the other one could be 'retro-engineered' (turns ratios, etc.) and a good custom winder (and, fortunately, there are still several) could probably make one. Making a good transformer is an art, but it's not magic.

    In the case of custom wound replacement OPTs, the best practice would probably be to replace both, since a custom version wouldn't be identical to the OEM part. In other words, an OEM replacement OPT would be the path of (heh) least resistance. If both OPTs somehow were to die, the amp might be destined to be a doorstop if no OEM replacements could be sourced (and no documentation of the OPTs were available).

    Any other parts in the amp should be pretty plain vanilla -- unless, of course, it happens to have any odd solid state components (ICs) involved in its circuitry. I think that unlikely, but not impossible. Likely the only ss parts employed in it are rectifiers and maybe regulators... but who knows?

    Proprietary circuit design won't handicap a good troubleshooter unless key stuff is potted in epoxy or something like that. :/

    All this being said...
    Of course, the amplifier is being touted as essentially failure-proof for decades, so it may be a moot point :#

  • stretchlstretchl Posts: 1,299
    Re: “custom winders” - Where could one look to find these folks? Could be an interesting story - “A Dying Breed...” something like that.
    “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'
    - Isaac Asimov

    Hi-Fi
    Apple Lossless --> Squeezebox Touch --> Joule Electra LA-100 Mark iii --> Yaqin MC-10t --> LSiM-705's
    Cabling by Groneberg
    Visuals
    http://StretchPhotography.com
    http://Vimeo.com/channels/stretchphoto
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,637
    edited March 8
    Speaking of output transformer tricks :)

    I should mention that the trick of using small, light, cheap OPTs isn't a new one -- although it may be less common in PP amps.

    In the late 1990s, Dan Schmalle ("Doc Bottlehead") famously unearthed the old (1930s!) "parallel feed" topology in some of their single-ended amplifiers as a way to get around the need for a single-ended OPT to be big (expensive!) enough to handle the DC plate voltage (and current) that flows through the primary in a normal SE OPT.

    Parallel feed uses a capacitor and a choke to shunt the plate DC voltage around the OPT.
    Single-ended 2A3 is only good for about 3.5 watts at "hifi" distortion levels, so you can see that, if the plate DC doesn't have to go through it, a decent SE OPT for a 2A3 amp could be pretty small (i.e., cheap).

    In their "Paramour" SE 2A3 monoblocks, Bottlhead cleverly used a cheap ($4 or so) PA "line level matching" transformer wired backwards as the OPT. The bandwidth, of course, is a little limited (especially low frequency extension) relative to a multi-hundred dollar "good" SE OPT, but the net result is delightfully musical with high-sensitivity loudspeakers. Trust me on this :)

    35012452392_ae479f19ec_h.jpgDSC_8376 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

    OPTs are in the front, PTs in the center, and "parafeed" chokes in the rear in the photo above.
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,652
    Mark, I'd imagine having something custom wound would cost some good coin. Which is probably the reason you don't see many doing it. F1nut posted a while back about a Pakistan company that made their own custom transformers, and those pieces where in the tens of thousands.

    Bob has some sort of proprietary design with the tubes, so I'm hearing, that they actually repair themselves so as to last longer. I'd imagine only someone familiar with that circuit would be able to repair it.

    It's one thing to say anything can be reverse engineered, but the cost and finding someone willing to do it would negate actually doing it. In other words, tell me how if something goes south on these, that it won't become a very pretty door stop in the garage.

    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1430
    Tad 803 speakers
  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 16,293
    It doesn't cost tens of thousands for custom OPT. MastersounD does their own transformers. The one that is expensive is the Litz transformers as they are extremely delicate to wind.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,637
    edited March 8
    tonyb wrote: »
    Mark, I'd imagine having something custom wound would cost some good coin. Which is probably the reason you don't see many doing it. F1nut posted a while back about a Pakistan company that made their own custom transformers, and those pieces where in the tens of thousands.

    Bob has some sort of proprietary design with the tubes, so I'm hearing, that they actually repair themselves so as to last longer. I'd imagine only someone familiar with that circuit would be able to repair it.

    It's one thing to say anything can be reverse engineered, but the cost and finding someone willing to do it would negate actually doing it. In other words, tell me how if something goes south on these, that it won't become a very pretty door stop in the garage.

    Typically Heyboer or EP or Magnequest will do a custom transformer to spec for a few hundred dollars. Pricey ones involve esoteric materials and it's safe to assume that the OPTs in this inexpensive amp aren't particularly pricey at fairly low count numbers (dozens of individual OPTs).

    Per the Carver marketing literature available to us now, they use some old TV technology (DC restoration circuit) in the amp. .. the 'self repair' may refer to something like the old CRT TV 'boosters' which could rejuvenate the filament. Not sure about repairing shorts.

    There's no black magic inside, I can pretty much guarantee that -- do not underestimate the skills of a good troubleshooter. I think you read way more into the ad copy than what really lies beneath it.. the only way to know for sure is to get a look under her skirts and do some measurin'. E.g., determining the actual operating point of the output tubes should be very straightforward.

    The less one knows about the guts, the easier it is to be bamboozled.

    Now, just to be very clear -- I am talking only about the guts; the nuts and bolts.
    Obviously, I have no way to know how this amp sounds, and whether at that benchmark it represents great value or not.

    We also can't have any idea how well they'll hold up "in the field", claims of calculated longevity notwithstanding. Only time and end-user experience will give us data on that.

    Needless to say -- I would love to hear one, but I'd have a screwdriver with me if and when I did. B)

    I came very close to pulling the trigger in December, but various comments on the amp (many direct from its manufacturer or dealers) set my spidey senses to tingling, so I didn't.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,637
    edited March 8
    stretchl wrote: »
    Re: “custom winders” - Where could one look to find these folks? Could be an interesting story - “A Dying Breed...” something like that.

    The ones I've had experience with:

    https://www.heyboertransformers.com/
    Heyboer did the original transformers (in the 1950s!) for my EICO HF-81; I had them do a spare power transformer for me (a known weak spot in many of the old EICOs; they were a little too small for the demands placed on them and ran HOT) with a little more substance to 'em (i.e., to run cooler) as a spare. Cost about $100, albeit probably a decade ago.

    Magnequest does excellent iron:
    https://www.facebook.com/MagneQuest-121507687917410/
    Bottlehead historically would have MQ do their higher-end iron, although I don't think that's routinely the case any more.

    ElectraPrint is also very good. I've have EP SE OPTs for my 46 amp that I've still not built :p
    https://www.electra-print.com/

    I reckon Dave Slagle could make pretty much anything anyone would dream up (although he tends towards less traditional uses of inductors and other ironic components :) )--- he's a notch higher-end, though (but he's also a great guy and very talented).
    http://www.intactaudio.com/

    There are doubtless a whole host of Asian winders too, but I know nothing about them and I have zero actual experience with them.

    Also, I don't know if vendors like One Electron and Edcor will do custom iron.

    HTH.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,637
    Oh, speaking of Dave Slagle...

    If you haven't seen his hifi blog, well... you might want to take a look some time.
    This is my kind of (aspirational) stuff.

    http://hifiheroin.blogspot.com/
  • ALL212ALL212 Posts: 1,149
    tonyb wrote: »
    Good info, I'll make sure I stop by to get an ear on it.

    I'll join you! That is if you'll allow me to. Didn't mean to be presumptuous...
    Aaron
    Enabler Extraordinaire
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,652
    ALL212 wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    Good info, I'll make sure I stop by to get an ear on it.

    I'll join you! That is if you'll allow me to. Didn't mean to be presumptuous...

    Absolutely bro, though your going to have to keep an eye on Ivan. Keeping track of that dude makes my head spin. :)
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1430
    Tad 803 speakers
  • stretchlstretchl Posts: 1,299
    Thanks @mhardy6647
    “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'
    - Isaac Asimov

    Hi-Fi
    Apple Lossless --> Squeezebox Touch --> Joule Electra LA-100 Mark iii --> Yaqin MC-10t --> LSiM-705's
    Cabling by Groneberg
    Visuals
    http://StretchPhotography.com
    http://Vimeo.com/channels/stretchphoto
  • FaustinFaustin Posts: 898
    In regards to transformer service - I had 2 transformers from a Fisher X-100 rewound by a guy in Hollister CA a few months ago. Charged $100 each. Turn around was less than 2 weeks. Repainted them as well. They looked great and the 50 plus year old Fisher is back singing again. FWIW
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