Thoughts on using Integrated amps as Preamps?
imsjry
Posts: 120
So...I recently picked up a B&K 3030 power amp to drive my new Polk LSiM705's. I've always used a great old Kenwood KA-8004 to drive my other Polk speakers (RTi12's), but i wanted to get in on the power amp world.
The Kenwood KA-8004 has a preout as well as the old Pioneer SA-9100 I own.
What are the thoughts on using Intigrateds as your Pre's? These amps are both wonderful on their own, but I assume that does not necessarily mean they make for good Preamps.
Any thoughts and experience are most welcome! Thanks.
The Kenwood KA-8004 has a preout as well as the old Pioneer SA-9100 I own.
What are the thoughts on using Intigrateds as your Pre's? These amps are both wonderful on their own, but I assume that does not necessarily mean they make for good Preamps.
Any thoughts and experience are most welcome! Thanks.
Post edited by KennethSwauger on
Comments
Parasound Halo A 31 OnkyoTX-NR838 Sony XBR55X850B 55" 4K RtiA9 Fronts CsiA6 Center RtiA3 Rears FxiA6 Side Surrounds Dual Psw 111's Oppo 105D Signal Ultra Speaker Cables & IC's Signal Magic Power Cable Technics SL Q300 Panamax MR4300 Audioquest Chocolate HDMI Cables Audioquest Forest USB Cable
2 Channel
Adcom 555II Vincent SA-T1 Marantz SA 15S2 Denon DR-M11 Clearaudio Bluemotion SDA 2.3tl's (Z) edition MIT Terminator II Speaker Cables & IC's Adcom 545II Adcom Gtp-450 Marantz CD5004 Technics M245X SDA 2B's, SDA CRS+
Stuff for the Head
JD LABS C5 Headphone Amplifier, Sennheiser HD 598, Polk Audio Buckle, Polk Audio Hinge, Velodyne vPulse, Bose IE2, Sennheiser CX 200 Street II, Sennheiser MX 365
Shower & Off the beaten path Rigs
Polk Audio Boom Swimmer, Polk Audio Urchin
Certainly worth a try, given that you have it already.
Has the KA-8004 been rehabbed or is it original? If the latter, it will, at the least, be chockablock with tired electrolytic capacitors (which will almost certainly have sonic consequences).
It’s more just because I already own them and they have the capability and they seem to be great intigrateds in their own right.
Parasound Halo A 31 OnkyoTX-NR838 Sony XBR55X850B 55" 4K RtiA9 Fronts CsiA6 Center RtiA3 Rears FxiA6 Side Surrounds Dual Psw 111's Oppo 105D Signal Ultra Speaker Cables & IC's Signal Magic Power Cable Technics SL Q300 Panamax MR4300 Audioquest Chocolate HDMI Cables Audioquest Forest USB Cable
2 Channel
Adcom 555II Vincent SA-T1 Marantz SA 15S2 Denon DR-M11 Clearaudio Bluemotion SDA 2.3tl's (Z) edition MIT Terminator II Speaker Cables & IC's Adcom 545II Adcom Gtp-450 Marantz CD5004 Technics M245X SDA 2B's, SDA CRS+
Stuff for the Head
JD LABS C5 Headphone Amplifier, Sennheiser HD 598, Polk Audio Buckle, Polk Audio Hinge, Velodyne vPulse, Bose IE2, Sennheiser CX 200 Street II, Sennheiser MX 365
Shower & Off the beaten path Rigs
Polk Audio Boom Swimmer, Polk Audio Urchin
So I guess I’m looking for reasons why a decent intigrated wouldn’t make a good Pre. And what makes a “good” vs “bad” preamp? I’m new to all of this.
If the sound is powerful and clean when using it as an intigrated, what would it make it not so as the Preamp to my B&K?
Parasound Halo A 31 OnkyoTX-NR838 Sony XBR55X850B 55" 4K RtiA9 Fronts CsiA6 Center RtiA3 Rears FxiA6 Side Surrounds Dual Psw 111's Oppo 105D Signal Ultra Speaker Cables & IC's Signal Magic Power Cable Technics SL Q300 Panamax MR4300 Audioquest Chocolate HDMI Cables Audioquest Forest USB Cable
2 Channel
Adcom 555II Vincent SA-T1 Marantz SA 15S2 Denon DR-M11 Clearaudio Bluemotion SDA 2.3tl's (Z) edition MIT Terminator II Speaker Cables & IC's Adcom 545II Adcom Gtp-450 Marantz CD5004 Technics M245X SDA 2B's, SDA CRS+
Stuff for the Head
JD LABS C5 Headphone Amplifier, Sennheiser HD 598, Polk Audio Buckle, Polk Audio Hinge, Velodyne vPulse, Bose IE2, Sennheiser CX 200 Street II, Sennheiser MX 365
Shower & Off the beaten path Rigs
Polk Audio Boom Swimmer, Polk Audio Urchin
Some of the integrated amplfiers had notoriously mediocre preamps -- harman/kardon's A-402, and the earlier, vacuum tube Dynaco SCA-35 are well known examples.
Using your "decent" integrated as a pre can only sound better. You can do a lot better with separates but stand alone preamps can get expensive and you will have to decide if it is worth it to you.
Until then crank your new system up and enjoy.
Main 2ch:
Polk LSi15 (DB840 upgrade), Parasound: P/LD-1100, HCA-1000A; Denon: DVD-2910, DRM-800A; Monster HTS3600-MKII, Grado SR-225i; Technics SL-J2, Parasound PPH-100.
HT:
Marantz SR7010, Polk: RTA11TL (RDO198-1, XO and Damping Upgrades), S4, CS250, PSW10 (DXi104 upgrade), Marantz UD5005, Pioneer PL-530, Panasonic TC-P42S60
Other stuff:
Denon: DRA-835R, AVR-888, DCD-660, DRM-700A, DRR-780; Polk: S8, Monitor 5A, 5B, TSi100, RM7; Pioneer: CT-6R; Onkyo CP-1046F; Ortofon OM5E, Marantz: PM5004, CD5004, CDR-615; Parasound C/PT-600, HCA-800ii, Sony CDP-650ESD, Technics SA 5070, B&W DM601
2 Channel
Turntable - VPI Scout 1.1/Ortofon 2M Blue
Amplification - Parks Audio Budgie, Dared SL2000a, McCormack DNA 0.5 Deluxe
Speakers - GoldenEar Triton 2
__________________________________________________
7.1 Home Theater
Denon AVR-X3300W; Rotel RMB-1066; Polk CS350ls, LS90's, FXi3's, RC60i; SVS PC Ultra; BenQ HT2050; Elite Screens 120"
__________________________________________________
Man Cave
Turntable - Pro-Ject 2.9 Wood/Grado Gold
Integrated Amplifier - Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II
CD: Cambridge Audio
Speakers - SDA 2A; Epos Epic 2
__________________________________________________
Ya do the Hokey Pokey and you turn yourself around....that's what it's all about.
Got that right Joe.
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
Ask yourself the same question in regards to speakers. $100 vs $1000 vs $10000 etc.
Definitely some good options for you in the $500-$1000 range. And even more so used.
I used an integrated for the longest time as a preamp. When I finally switched to a dedicated pre, the world came alive! If you have the room, separates are the way to go. And that way you can switch em out, upgrade, as you move along your journey. Just my experience.
Office: PC,EAR Acute CD Player,EAR 834L Pre,Northstar Designs Intenso DAC,PASS ACA Monoblocks,Denon UDR-F10 Cassette,Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers,SVS SB12 Plus sub,MIT AVt2 speaker cables,IFI Purifier2,AQ Cinnamon USB cable,Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
Spare Room: Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-8 Monoblocks,Tisbury Mini Passive Pre,Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38),Analysis Plus Oval 9's,Zu Jumpers,AudioEngine B1 Streamer,Klipsch RB-61 v2,SVS PB1000 sub,Blue Jeans RCA IC's
Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated,Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer,Rotel RCD-1072 CD player,Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner,Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers,Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/fx-audio-6j1-tube-preamp-a-31-wonder.848535/
Not sayin' you should (i.e., I wouldn't -- and I am nothing if not cheap), but you can...
See that’s a case in point. Some people are driving their high end systems with $75 little preamps so back to my original question, why would something like that possibly be better then the preout on my nice old integrated? I mean hell for $75, it would be worth the experiment I suppose. Then there are $2000 preamps so it’s all confusing to me.
Why would it be confusing ? Pre amps, like any other piece in your system vary in sound quality, and price. You could pay north of 15k for certain pre amps....or 75 bucks, but you certainly aren't going to get the same sound quality.
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
Some people collect AMC Gremlins.
I am pretty much guarantee that one gets what one pays for -- the folks that run these $31 Asian wonders have probably not compared them to anything that wasn't mediocre.
Preamps are important. I don't use an active preamp, because I've yet to find one that I really like -- that doesn't take me a notch away from the performance. Some of that is financial (i.e., I am not keen to spend big $ on an active preamp); some of it opportunistic (what I own and what I've had a chance to audition with my own equipment). I am NOT SAYING that there aren't good preamps, vintage or new; storebought or DIY -- I AM SAYING that they aren't necessary easy to find, especially on a (tight) budget).
Here's the thing: The preamp in your old Kenwood is probably perfectly OK. Dollar for dollar, then or now, it wouldn't match a dedicated preamp -- because those dollars were invested in the power amp, too! In other words, if the MSRP on that KA8004 (probably ca. 1974? I'm guessing here) was $350, probably $100 to150 of that value was in the preamp section. Even in 1974, $150 bought one an entry-level preamp.
As I mentioned earlier, though, the bigger problem with the KA8004, unless you have rehabb'ed or had it rehabb'ed, is that the passive components in it are
tired. Especially the electrolytic capacitors. The amp will not sound as new nor as good as it can with forty-plus year old electrolytics in it.
Until or unless that's been addressed, the preamp may sound perfectly OK, but it will not be performing at its own potential.
Add that to the fact that its own potential was probably middling when new, and you're not likely to be getting great sound out of the KA8004.
ALL THAT SAID, it costs you nothing to try, and it is more than worthy of trial. If you like what you hear, you're all set.
HTH, as they say!
Stereo Review's redoubtable
You can read the review in this PDF from www.americanradiohistory.com (an amazing site, if you're not familiar with it!).
https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-HiFI-Stereo/70s/HiFi-Stereo-Review-1973-11.pdf
the review starts on pg. 38 of the magazine
Lumin X1
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on preamp, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
Oh boy. This audiophile hobby is expensive! Recommendations on cables? Thanks everyone already.
https://www.thecableco.com/
Lumin X1
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on preamp, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
How cool was that??!! Thanks for posting. Amazing to read an original review my amp from when I was four years old.
Monitor 4a (Peerless), Monitor 4b (Peerless), Monitor 5a (Peerless), Monitor 5b (SL2000), Monitor 7b (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7c’s (194’s, Dynamat, Sonicaps, Mills, H-nuts), SDA CRS+ (SL2000), RTA12c (194's), SDA SRS 2 (SL2000)
Repair pile: SRS 3.1TL (198’s), RTA 11T's, (1) lonely RTA 11TL to become a center channel... someday...
Pairs that have passed through:
Monitor 5b (SL1000), Monitor 10a (Peerless), Monitor 10c (3x pair), RTA8, RTA8TL, SDA2, SDA2a, SDA1b, SDA SRS2
...and more to come, it’s a sickness.
If you like what your hearing....does it matter ?
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
Using a "Y" cable to mix signals is not (as we also say in my line of work) a best practice.
Here's the Scripture (IMO) on "Y-ing"
https://www.rane.com/note109.html
It's a little abstruse, since it is primarily directed at the "pro" industry, using balanced interconnects -- but it's good info. Rane has a whole library of similar white papers on such deceptively-simple-but-not-really considerations as grounding.
Monitor 4a (Peerless), Monitor 4b (Peerless), Monitor 5a (Peerless), Monitor 5b (SL2000), Monitor 7b (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7c’s (194’s, Dynamat, Sonicaps, Mills, H-nuts), SDA CRS+ (SL2000), RTA12c (194's), SDA SRS 2 (SL2000)
Repair pile: SRS 3.1TL (198’s), RTA 11T's, (1) lonely RTA 11TL to become a center channel... someday...
Pairs that have passed through:
Monitor 5b (SL1000), Monitor 10a (Peerless), Monitor 10c (3x pair), RTA8, RTA8TL, SDA2, SDA2a, SDA1b, SDA SRS2
...and more to come, it’s a sickness.
$350 for the least expensive pair. That's more then my B&K 3030 power amp cost me. I'm all in on this audiophile game, but boutique expensive RCA cables? Can they possibly make that much of an audible difference that warrant the prices I'm seeing? I'm kinda stunned. Maybe I'll start with some Blue Jeans which seem to be a reasonable choice over the $3.00 Monoprice ones I've always used.
Blue Jeans or Signal Cable always a great starting point at which you should hear a difference vs. Monoprice.