4K HDR and Dolby Vision

mantismantis Posts: 15,404
edited November 2018 in Going Digital
Ok so I have had my Sony Z9D for a while now and I think it's a pretty amazing TV. Then I installed a LG OLED for one of my clients and I sat down and really watched it for over an hour. When your in a store or Installing a TV, you really don't get to see how really good or bad they are.
I don't really do Installs much anymore but I still get to get my hands dirty from time to time. After I setup the LG and get everything dialed in( (I don't fully calibrate out of the box) and I started watching just some 4k video's off youtube to try out the OLED as I don't get to see many of the LG's at all. Man let me tell you this is an incredibly detailed bright clear with beautiful colors and super deep blacks. It's absolutely damn close or as good as Sony's OLED models. I sat there and for the first time in a very long time felt that this TV could actually make me happy over my forever Loved Pioneer Elite Kuro.
Don't get me wrong the Sony Z9D is one badass LED but it's an LED. At times I see stuff that I don't like. LED I don't care how good you make it and the Z9D is regarded as the best one ever made it's still has some of the issues LED has.
OLED on the other hand doesn't seem to have any of the strange issues LED's have at least in the content I was watching. She has Xfinity cable service which is only 1080p at best and it looked really good. Smooth and non blocky, no jitter or weird strange wiggles that LED will do from time to time. I catch it as I'm still so use to how a Plasma replay's video.
I have not spent any time with Sony's new Master Series OLED other then a few minutes here and there. Now I want to take one home and demo it in my house against the Z9D and really understand the differences between the 2 technologies other then what I have been trained on.
So as far as issues with OLED there are a few. You got Burn in and Image retention which I never had with any of my plasma TVs I owned and that's with 2 kids and a wife using them. I'm not so worried here. How long will it last? Who the hell knows that they have not been around that long. And finally the one that really prevented me from going OLED when I got the Z9D is by spec. OLED can't reproduce 1000 Nit's. They perform between 500-750 nits tops. Most HRD and Dolby Vision movies are mastered at 1000 nits or even higher which is insane but whatever specs are specs. My Z9D is the brightest TV ever made to date as far as I know and when something needs to be bright it damn shines. You need sunglasses with this damn light canon of a TV. I'm not sure that really matters all that much to me. It bothers the TECH in me as I'll know I can't reproduce all the high details as OLED's crush the top end detail with Tone mapping and no ability to replay them but I'm not a LED fan at all. I can live with the Z9D because it's a reference TV and I've never seen a better LED TV yet but I'm still not 100% happy with it.
My question to you guys who go deep into HDR and Dolby Vision what is your take on this whole video mess we live in right now? If you could own a OLED or the Z9D or Z9F the new one or not for me at all the Q from Samsung what road would you go money no object? I'm use to paying a premium for a TV so todays prices don't scare me except the 77 inch OLED's are pushing my limits. All 65 inch models are affordable to me and thats what I have currently. I'd love to go 75 or 77 next and I might bite the bullet and go OLED as I'm not sure the upgrades and downfalls of the new Z9F are going to satisfy me. Not to mention they don't have a 75 inch out yet. The 65 is out but I have not seen the 75 come through.
If you haven't figured it out the LG trashed me. I sat there in Awe and fell in love with that picture. It's so real and life like to me. WHY CAN'T OLED GET IT RIGHT AND MEET SPEC?
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
«1

Comments

  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,439
    Choosing a Tv technology is just a matter of picking your poisons. None of them are perfect, you just choose what fits your room, and visual preferences.

    At the rate tech is changing, specs almost seem meaningless as no doubt within 2 years your current new TV will be old hat.

    BTW-Sony has a Masters series of their QLEDS, bigger bucks, you get any in your shop ?
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  • rpf65rpf65 Posts: 2,056
    I don’t know which series of LG impressed you so much, but the E8 series has outstanding PQ, in my opinion. Then again the Sony A9F, is equally good, from the limited time I viewed them on display.

    Unfortunately you have arguably one of the best LED’s out there, where PQ is concerned. I personally think it’s so close to OLED as to be almost scary.

    Many would say Samsung has a slightly better PQ, in certain situations. I’ve seen many Samsung’s in homes that are properly calibrated, and PQ is usually excellent to extremely good. Here is my issue with Samsung in general. When I go to a Magnolia, for example, and see the Samsung, Sony, and LG together, the Samsung looks almost cartoonish in comparison.

    I know proper calibration will take care of the issue, but when viewed next to other manufacturers, I simply am completely turned off by Samsung.

    Unfortunately the only options I can see in LED would be Sony’s 900F, or Vizio P-series or P quantum series, if you can find the later. The black level on the 900 series isn’t anywhere near as good as the Z9D, but it has much better response time. The Vizio’s lack a few things I feel important, so I’ll leave it at that. Can’t see any reason what so ever to go with any other LED on the current market.

    Was intrigued by the Z9F, when I first heard about it, but think the trade off for wider viewing angle and degradation of PQ directly in front of screen is a bad compromise. Just my personal opinion on that one, but may be a viable solution for many.

    Back to OLED, the only choices I see that would currently satisfy your personal itch is either the LG E8 or Sony A9F.

    According to testing data, the LG is slightly brighter, but I really don’t think most could actually see a difference in general usage. Maybe 1 in 100, at most. I wouldn’t even factor that into my decision.

    Sony, in general, probably has some witch on the payroll when it comes to upscaling. Lot of 720 content, and massive amount of 1080 content out there. So if you stream, watch broadcast from cable, satellite, or ota, the edge would go to Sony.

    My vote would be to keep what you have, and see what new tricks the tv wizards have in a year or two.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,404
    tonyb wrote: »
    Choosing a Tv technology is just a matter of picking your poisons. None of them are perfect, you just choose what fits your room, and visual preferences.

    At the rate tech is changing, specs almost seem meaningless as no doubt within 2 years your current new TV will be old hat.

    BTW-Sony has a Masters series of their QLEDS, bigger bucks, you get any in your shop ?
    Just the Z9F not the A9F.

    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,404
    rpf65 wrote: »
    I don’t know which series of LG impressed you so much, but the E8 series has outstanding PQ, in my opinion. Then again the Sony A9F, is equally good, from the limited time I viewed them on display.

    Unfortunately you have arguably one of the best LED’s out there, where PQ is concerned. I personally think it’s so close to OLED as to be almost scary.

    Many would say Samsung has a slightly better PQ, in certain situations. I’ve seen many Samsung’s in homes that are properly calibrated, and PQ is usually excellent to extremely good. Here is my issue with Samsung in general. When I go to a Magnolia, for example, and see the Samsung, Sony, and LG together, the Samsung looks almost cartoonish in comparison.

    I know proper calibration will take care of the issue, but when viewed next to other manufacturers, I simply am completely turned off by Samsung.

    Unfortunately the only options I can see in LED would be Sony’s 900F, or Vizio P-series or P quantum series, if you can find the later. The black level on the 900 series isn’t anywhere near as good as the Z9D, but it has much better response time. The Vizio’s lack a few things I feel important, so I’ll leave it at that. Can’t see any reason what so ever to go with any other LED on the current market.

    Was intrigued by the Z9F, when I first heard about it, but think the trade off for wider viewing angle and degradation of PQ directly in front of screen is a bad compromise. Just my personal opinion on that one, but may be a viable solution for many.

    Back to OLED, the only choices I see that would currently satisfy your personal itch is either the LG E8 or Sony A9F.

    According to testing data, the LG is slightly brighter, but I really don’t think most could actually see a difference in general usage. Maybe 1 in 100, at most. I wouldn’t even factor that into my decision.

    Sony, in general, probably has some witch on the payroll when it comes to upscaling. Lot of 720 content, and massive amount of 1080 content out there. So if you stream, watch broadcast from cable, satellite, or ota, the edge would go to Sony.

    My vote would be to keep what you have, and see what new tricks the tv wizards have in a year or two.
    I think I'm just not a LED kinda guy. Even as good as the Z9D is which in my opinion there is no better LED even the Z9F I don't think I want to upgrade to that.
    I'll probably sit tight and see where the 77 inch OLED's go.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 16,115
    I think you are blaming the processing and not the tv technology itself. The blockiness and jitter is from the motion control. I realize they have to do it due to the technology but I’d expect in a handful of years those processing issues will be much better controlled.
  • mdaudioguymdaudioguy Posts: 5,082
    tonyb wrote: »
    Choosing a Tv technology is just a matter of picking your poisons. None of them are perfect, you just choose what fits your room, and visual preferences.

    At the rate tech is changing, specs almost seem meaningless as no doubt within 2 years your current new TV will be old hat.

    BTW-Sony has a Masters series of their QLEDS, bigger bucks, you get any in your shop ?

    BTW - Sony, LG and a few other lesser-known brands use OLED (organic light-emitting diode) technology. QLED is Samsung's name for their LED displays that use quantum dots - a different technology than OLED. I think Samsung rolled out that name to confuse the situation.
  • sgmsmgsgmsmg Posts: 382
    The 75" Z9F is out but there was an issue initially so they are just starting to trickle out. There also seems to be a growing consensus that the 75" got a superior screen and the 65" Z9F screen is not as good. I am still kicking myself for braking my Panasonic ZT60 and then rushing to replace it with the Z9F. I feel I would have been happier with the Z9D but it wasn't an option at the time. Would have loved to have gone with OLED but I was constantly paranoid about burn in with my Plasma and didn't want to go through that again.
    2 Channel
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  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,439
    I use that terminology QLED as a general term.
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  • mdaudioguymdaudioguy Posts: 5,082
    tonyb wrote: »
    I use that terminology QLED as a general term.

    LOL - but it's not! :p
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,404
    DSkip wrote: »
    I think you are blaming the processing and not the tv technology itself. The blockiness and jitter is from the motion control. I realize they have to do it due to the technology but I’d expect in a handful of years those processing issues will be much better controlled.
    I have adjusted the Motion settings many times in different modes and Manual. I have it set to the best of it's ability and the jitter is at a minimum but it's still there from time to time. Plasma didn't have these issues.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,404
    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    Choosing a Tv technology is just a matter of picking your poisons. None of them are perfect, you just choose what fits your room, and visual preferences.

    At the rate tech is changing, specs almost seem meaningless as no doubt within 2 years your current new TV will be old hat.

    BTW-Sony has a Masters series of their QLEDS, bigger bucks, you get any in your shop ?

    BTW - Sony, LG and a few other lesser-known brands use OLED (organic light-emitting diode) technology. QLED is Samsung's name for their LED displays that use quantum dots - a different technology than OLED. I think Samsung rolled out that name to confuse the situation.
    I don't like the way Samsung's look. They always seem to process video to make it look fake 3D ish
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,404
    sgmsmg wrote: »
    The 75" Z9F is out but there was an issue initially so they are just starting to trickle out. There also seems to be a growing consensus that the 75" got a superior screen and the 65" Z9F screen is not as good. I am still kicking myself for braking my Panasonic ZT60 and then rushing to replace it with the Z9F. I feel I would have been happier with the Z9D but it wasn't an option at the time. Would have loved to have gone with OLED but I was constantly paranoid about burn in with my Plasma and didn't want to go through that again.
    Again? You burned in your Plasma? Take a lot to burn a Plasma.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,439
    edited November 2018
    mantis wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »
    I think you are blaming the processing and not the tv technology itself. The blockiness and jitter is from the motion control. I realize they have to do it due to the technology but I’d expect in a handful of years those processing issues will be much better controlled.
    I have adjusted the Motion settings many times in different modes and Manual. I have it set to the best of it's ability and the jitter is at a minimum but it's still there from time to time. Plasma didn't have these issues.

    Have you tried using Football mode ? Then tweaking it from there for movies. In football mode, then look at the settings in that mode. This mode on Sony TV's has the best settings usually possible for motion control. Write down those settings, then when you switch over to one of the movie modes, move off the motion settings for football slightly and adjust the other color settings to your liking.
    Post edited by tonyb on
    HT SYSTEM-
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  • mdaudioguymdaudioguy Posts: 5,082
    mantis wrote: »
    sgmsmg wrote: »
    The 75" Z9F is out but there was an issue initially so they are just starting to trickle out. There also seems to be a growing consensus that the 75" got a superior screen and the 65" Z9F screen is not as good. I am still kicking myself for braking my Panasonic ZT60 and then rushing to replace it with the Z9F. I feel I would have been happier with the Z9D but it wasn't an option at the time. Would have loved to have gone with OLED but I was constantly paranoid about burn in with my Plasma and didn't want to go through that again.
    Again? You burned in your Plasma? Take a lot to burn a Plasma.

    I think he means he doesn't want to go through the paranoia.
  • Toolfan66Toolfan66 Posts: 14,249
    So you got me off my **** to go look at a Z9D or Z9F, and the BestBuy by us didn’t have either one on display, they didn’t even have one in stock..
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,404
    tonyb wrote: »
    mantis wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »
    I think you are blaming the processing and not the tv technology itself. The blockiness and jitter is from the motion control. I realize they have to do it due to the technology but I’d expect in a handful of years those processing issues will be much better controlled.
    I have adjusted the Motion settings many times in different modes and Manual. I have it set to the best of it's ability and the jitter is at a minimum but it's still there from time to time. Plasma didn't have these issues.

    Have you tried using Football mode ? Then tweaking it from there for movies. In football mode, then look at the settings in that mode. This mode on Sony TV's has the best settings usually possible for motion control. Write down those settings, then when you switch over to one of the movie modes, move off the motion settings for football slightly and adjust the other color settings to your liking.
    I'll check that out thanks man

    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,404
    Toolfan66 wrote: »
    So you got me off my **** to go look at a Z9D or Z9F, and the BestBuy by us didn’t have either one on display, they didn’t even have one in stock..
    LOL
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • rpf65rpf65 Posts: 2,056
    Toolfan66 wrote: »
    So you got me off my **** to go look at a Z9D or Z9F, and the BestBuy by us didn’t have either one on display, they didn’t even have one in stock..

    Move to an area with better stock.
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 14,310
    rpf65 wrote: »
    Toolfan66 wrote: »
    So you got me off my **** to go look at a Z9D or Z9F, and the BestBuy by us didn’t have either one on display, they didn’t even have one in stock..

    Move to an area with better stock.

    I don't know man Denver Co. is pretty good sized.
  • https://hometheaterreview.com/sony-xbr-65a9f-master-series-4kultra-hd-oled-tv-reviewed/
    The author makes a very good point about ultimate brightness versus overall contrast ratio from black to white. No OLED’s cannot get as bright as LED backlit LCD sets. However there is more to it than just ultimate brightness.
    Living room Home theater: Upgrade Company modified Onkyo PR-SC5509,Sunfire Cinema grand Signature 5 channel amp(1st gen),Carver TFM-45,Carver M-400a,Panasonic TC-P50ST60 50" Plasma(last gen before Plasma production stopped)Pioneer Elite DVL-91,Meridian 519 Dolby AC-3 RF Demodulator,Oppo Digital UDP-205,TiVo Bolt VOX,Nakamich BX-300,Technics SL-1200MKII,Shure V15 Type VxMR cartridge,Polk SDA-SRS 3.1 TL(with RD-0198 tweeters, upgraded with Larry's rings, black hole5,an Avel-Lindberg 1000VA isolation transformer, VR3 customer crossovers and internal wiring),Polk CS-1000P(with SL-6506 tweeter),Polk Monitor 5jr(with RD-0194 tweeters),Polk RT-35i (1),Polk Mini Monitors,Polk PSW150(4)Monster Power HTPS 7000 MKII Signature series,Monster Power AVS 2000 Signature Series,Various MIT,Monster,Upgrade Company and Belden interconnect,power,HDMI,Coax and Toslink Digital and speaker cables.

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  • sgmsmgsgmsmg Posts: 382
    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    mantis wrote: »
    sgmsmg wrote: »
    The 75" Z9F is out but there was an issue initially so they are just starting to trickle out. There also seems to be a growing consensus that the 75" got a superior screen and the 65" Z9F screen is not as good. I am still kicking myself for braking my Panasonic ZT60 and then rushing to replace it with the Z9F. I feel I would have been happier with the Z9D but it wasn't an option at the time. Would have loved to have gone with OLED but I was constantly paranoid about burn in with my Plasma and didn't want to go through that again.
    Again? You burned in your Plasma? Take a lot to burn a Plasma.

    I think he means he doesn't want to go through the paranoia.

    Correct! I never had burn in but I spent the whole time I had it being paranoid. Some OLEDs get it some don't. Just did not want to risk it. It's funny my 13 year old Sony plasma has no burn in and is still running fine.
    2 Channel
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    Display: Sony XBR75X940D
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,404
    sgmsmg wrote: »
    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    mantis wrote: »
    sgmsmg wrote: »
    The 75" Z9F is out but there was an issue initially so they are just starting to trickle out. There also seems to be a growing consensus that the 75" got a superior screen and the 65" Z9F screen is not as good. I am still kicking myself for braking my Panasonic ZT60 and then rushing to replace it with the Z9F. I feel I would have been happier with the Z9D but it wasn't an option at the time. Would have loved to have gone with OLED but I was constantly paranoid about burn in with my Plasma and didn't want to go through that again.
    Again? You burned in your Plasma? Take a lot to burn a Plasma.

    I think he means he doesn't want to go through the paranoia.

    Correct! I never had burn in but I spent the whole time I had it being paranoid. Some OLEDs get it some don't. Just did not want to risk it. It's funny my 13 year old Sony plasma has no burn in and is still running fine.
    I remember when Sony Made Plasmas. They got out of the Plasma game early. They where fantastic.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,404
    https://hometheaterreview.com/sony-xbr-65a9f-master-series-4kultra-hd-oled-tv-reviewed/
    The author makes a very good point about ultimate brightness versus overall contrast ratio from black to white. No OLED’s cannot get as bright as LED backlit LCD sets. However there is more to it than just ultimate brightness.
    Thanks for the link, I just read the Article. I'm very sure I'm gonna end up with a A9F and sell the Z9D.

    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,439
    Another positive to the A9F, is that the viewing angles are much improved over previous models, which obviously is a big plus.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
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    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

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    B&k 1430
    Tad 803 speakers
  • mantis wrote: »
    After I setup the LG and get everything dialed in( (I don't fully calibrate out of the box) and I started watching just some 4k video's off youtube to try out the OLED as I don't get to see many of the LG's at all. Man let me tell you this is an incredibly detailed bright clear with beautiful colors and super deep blacks. It's absolutely damn close or as good as Sony's OLED models. I sat there and for the first time in a very long time felt that this TV could actually make me happy over my forever Loved Pioneer Elite Kuro.

    Seeing is believing!

    If you google "Kuro LG OLED" you will find references to people who have happily switched from Panasonic and Pioneer plasmas to LG OLEDs. It's a topic of interest on the AVS forum.

    I recently saw an LG 65" OLED65C8PUA and it was the first TV since the Kuro that I felt that I could live with without making serious compromises.

    OLEDs have not quite fixed the issues with burn in, but that's not a concern to me because I would be using the set mostly for movies.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
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  • mantismantis Posts: 15,404
    mantis wrote: »
    After I setup the LG and get everything dialed in( (I don't fully calibrate out of the box) and I started watching just some 4k video's off youtube to try out the OLED as I don't get to see many of the LG's at all. Man let me tell you this is an incredibly detailed bright clear with beautiful colors and super deep blacks. It's absolutely damn close or as good as Sony's OLED models. I sat there and for the first time in a very long time felt that this TV could actually make me happy over my forever Loved Pioneer Elite Kuro.

    Seeing is believing!

    If you google "Kuro LG OLED" you will find references to people who have happily switched from Panasonic and Pioneer plasmas to LG OLEDs. It's a topic of interest on the AVS forum.

    I recently saw an LG 65" OLED65C8PUA and it was the first TV since the Kuro that I felt that I could live with without making serious compromises.

    OLEDs have not quite fixed the issues with burn in, but that's not a concern to me because I would be using the set mostly for movies.
    I completely agree. I would be happy with an LG or a Sony. I lean towards the Sony as I like the picture slightly more but it's like a Pick one at this point they both are equally impressive.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • Since I want to go substantially larger than my Kuro's 60" size, and since - to my eyes - OLED is the only current satisfactory replacement for plasma, the only option I have at this time is LG's 77" OLED77C8PUA (street price $5000/MSRP $9000/alleged dealer cost $3200).

    If I wanted a 65" OLED set, my choices are confined to the LG OLED65C8PUA (street price $2100/MSRP $3500) and the Sony XBR65A9F (street price $3800/MSRP $4500). Comparing both sets in the store, I prefer the LG's color rendition. Even if I preferred the Sony, I would have difficulty justifying its $1700 premium over the LG. It is interesting to note that LG makes Sony's OLED panels. Therefore the differences in performance are in the processing approaches taken by the two manufacturers.

    The street prices of all three LG 2018 model OLED sets are as follows:

    77" $5000 - screen size 2644 square inches
    65" $2100 - screen size 1864 square inches
    55" $1550 - screen size 1343 square inches

    Going from a 55" LG OLED to a 65" costs 35% more money to get 39% more screen area. Going from a 65" LG OLED to a 77" costs 238% more money to get 42% more screen area. Similar to the premium that Sony charges for its name badge and other things, the premium that LG charges for its largest OLED set is difficult to justify.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • Going from a 55" LG OLED to a 65" costs 35% more money to get 39% more screen area. Going from a 65" LG OLED to a 77" costs 238% more money to get 42% more screen area.

    Correction: Should have said the 77" OLED costs 138% more money.

    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,404
    LG Panel and LG TV is not the same exact company. But both Sony and LG buy their panels from them. Sony only uses the top of the line panels while LG will use the lower end models. There is a slight difference there.
    Processing is completely different. Sony has a much better processor in the X1 Extreme chip last years model and the new Ultimate Chip in this years model.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mdaudioguymdaudioguy Posts: 5,082
    Similar to the premium that Sony charges for its name badge and other things, the premium that LG charges for its largest OLED set is difficult to justify.

    I'm sure it's not just a premium for the sake of a premium. There's additional handling expense, manufacturing issues, as well as supply and demand.

    https://hometheaterreview.com/why-do-the-really-big-screen-tvs-cost-so-much-more/
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