Who's treitz3? He must be a local redneck somewhere's...
It ain't cheap...but worth it. Even the original crossovers showed sonic improvement getting out of the "box".
"Things" (read components) change value when introduced to vibration. However slight or massive, they change. Crossover models do not account for that change. Heat is another thing that can affect "things".
Isolating them for me proved to pay off. YMMV.
FWIW.
Tom
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.
~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~
~ Not all things that can be measured can be heard and not all things heard can be measured ~
Well, I'm in a lucky position, concerning my recap. I have a spare set of crossovers, and a spare set of dome mids. So, I can change caps, and add or remove bypass capacitors, to test the sound quality of the combinations, prior to actually installing anything in the cabinets. All in the name of science!
Cool -- I am all about good science, needless to say.
Problem is, I'd have to sell the loudspeakers to afford the caps to use on 'em. Sort of an O. Henry-esque dilemma, you know
They're on loan to use as a reference point in comparing other (mere mortal) caps on the FrankenAltecs. My lord, the WE capacitors perform XO duties smooooooooooooooothly and sweetly.
I wondered if you were using those on horns. Any pics of the FrankenAltecs?
Pictures?
umm, yeah...
So this is nearing a final configuration. It's a long story, parts of which are floatin' around this forum already.
The Altec Duplex 604 family of coaxial drivers is one of the best sounding midrange speakers extant It lacks extension at either end (especially in the treble) and while it can do a nice 3D image (as a stereo pair, that is!) it's one of those "head in a vise" things -- the sweet spot for the best stereo is pretty narrow.
So, long story short, I've been dinking around with alternatives for the treble but still using the woofer section of the Duplex (mostly because I don't happen to have a pair of Altec 515 woofers just gatherin' dust here someplace).
So: Woofer sections of the 604Es (which are roughly equivalent to 515s) still in 8 ft^3 vented cabinets. 604E treble drivers (essentially 288s) disconnected.
Treble provided by Altec 802D drivers mounted to Emilar EH500-2 horns (or JBL 2441 2" drivers... that's another story entirely).
Supertweetage provided by Fostex T90A bullet horns.
Crossovers are first order on all three drivers. 500 (or 600, or so) Hz for the woofer and treble driver, nominal 20kHz for the supertweeter. Pads on the treble and supertweeter drivers to match them to the less-sensitive woofers.
Not perfect, but nice -- and dollar per dollar pretty amazing with 3.5 watts per channel (SE 2A3).
(OK, so they're not very photogenic -- but I do intend to pad the tops of the cabinets with something better than an old beach towel, or an old flannel shirt. Honest.)
Seems to me that, at some point, huge-mongous boutique XO components installed internally might start to decrease the internal volume of a loudspeaker cabinet enough to be worth thinking about.
Do like @treitz3 and build a bigass box outside of the enclosure. Presto! Volume is still within tolerence!
Seems to me that, at some point, huge-mongous boutique XO components installed internally might start to decrease the internal volume of a loudspeaker cabinet enough to be worth thinking about.
Do like @treitz3 and build a bigass box outside of the enclosure. Presto! Volume is still within tolerence!
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.
~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~
~ Not all things that can be measured can be heard and not all things heard can be measured ~
I looked at and read up on as many brands as possible. Just trying to educate myself on variables. But, in the end, I mostly followed the recommendations of Jeff at Sonic Craft. I figured he was expert enough for me. The only mention from him, for a SoniCap, was a 4uF cap, in the treble circuit. Jeff thought the Mundorf's would work best for the other values. So, I ordered all Mundorf, to be consistent.
I see Jeff recommended what he did because of your budget, not that they were the absolute best choice.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
I looked at and read up on as many brands as possible. Just trying to educate myself on variables. But, in the end, I mostly followed the recommendations of Jeff at Sonic Craft. I figured he was expert enough for me. The only mention from him, for a SoniCap, was a 4uF cap, in the treble circuit. Jeff thought the Mundorf's would work best for the other values. So, I ordered all Mundorf, to be consistent.
I see Jeff recommended what he did because of your budget, not that they were the absolute best choice.
Well, many of Jeff's recommendations were actually more expensive than if I'd just used the cheaper SoniCap equivalent. In looking at the capacitors that SoniCap offers, for the 4, 6, 8, and 24uF values, my total cost would have been $85.51 each speaker. Jeff's recommendations totaled $148.41. Plus, I never claimed or inferred that Jeff's suggestions "were the absolute best choice". I only said that I trusted his judgment. So, I'm not sure what your point is?
So, you would have saved money, real estate and had a consistent tonal quality because those different versions of Mundorf have different tonal qualities. Other than that, no point.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
So, you would have saved money, real estate and had a consistent tonal quality because those different versions of Mundorf have different tonal qualities. Other than that, no point.
I guess there's no need for more than one brand of capacitor? I suppose Audyn, ClarityCap, Jantzen, Mundorf, and all the others, are fooling themselves? Wasting their time and our money? Heck, I suppose I should just continue to use the 37 year old electrolytic capacitors that are still in the speakers? No harm in that. So, Go SoniCap, or Go Home! Ra, Ra, Ra...! Naw. I'm happy with my choices. But, I'm also glad that you're happy with yours! That's how free will works!
You're not getting it. All brands have different sonic signatures and within those brands their different series have different sonic signatures. Therefore, if at all possible I believe it is best to stay with the same series regardless of the brand.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
You're not getting it. All brands have different sonic signatures and within those brands their different series have different sonic signatures. Therefore, if at all possible I believe it is best to stay with the same series regardless of the brand.
But, I am getting it! Mundorf uses the exact same manufacturing process for both the EVO series and the Supreme series. In fact, the Supreme's are manufactured using 2 EVO caps wired in series. So, not much chance of having different sonic signatures, to such an extreme, that it'll have a negative sonic impact. One of the many reasons why I choice to try Mundorf capacitors.
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
I've looked at this site a few times before. Do you give credence to this guy? I know nothing about him.
He is a very knowledgable and accomplished loudspeaker designer.However one mans subjective options are just that,subjective.So should not be deemed as absolute IMO.
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass
Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S-Tubes add soul!
I've looked at this site a few times before. Do you give credence to this guy? I know nothing about him.
No, he uses no controls to make his comparisons, and is aware of what he is using during his comparisons.
That tends to make his "conclusions", extremely biased.
Kinda like asking which is pepsi or coke and having the cans right in front of you with the names on them.
^^And as if we should give any credence to K_M's blathering.
2 channel: Anthem 225 Integrated amp; Parasound Ztuner; TechnicsTT SL1350; Vincent PHO-8 phono pre; Marantz CD6005 spinner; Polk SDA2BTL's; LAT International speaker cables, ZU Mission IC's and power cables all into a PS Audio Dectet Power center.
Other; S60'S, M10 series II, M7C's, Hafler XL600 amp, RB-980BX, Parasound HCA-1500 amp , P5 preamp, all in storage. All vintage Polk have had crossover rebuilds and tweeter upgrades.
tonyb said " but even socialists can do a good thing here and there
Social media makes dumb people dumber and smart people dumb then dumber.
I've looked at this site a few times before. Do you give credence to this guy? I know nothing about him.
No, he uses no controls to make his comparisons, and is aware of what he is using during his comparisons.
That tends to make his "conclusions", extremely biased.
Kinda like asking which is pepsi or coke and having the cans right in front of you with the names on them.
Biased how? He is noting his listening experiences, not trying to compare A&B to each other picking whether A or B is better.
He doesn't always recommend the highest priced one, nor does he always recommend an entire brand, so he doesn't appear to be price or brand biased, so what other bias is there in this situation?
If YOU had 20-30 items to compare, just exactly how would you do that?
Sheesh, you really have no clue and just want to keep parroting the same argument whether it fits the scenario or not.
Zero credibility you have
H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass
Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S-Tubes add soul!
He's not testing them one against the other. He is giving a listening impression of each and trying to subjectively rate them on a scale of 1 thru 10 while giving some insight to the score.
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass
Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S-Tubes add soul!
He's not testing them one against the other. He is giving a listening impression of each and trying to subjectively rate them on a scale of 1 thru 10 while giving some insight to the score.
A more accurate test would be to listen to one randomly, unaware, get the listening impressions and score, and THEN see which it was.
Either way, someone spending a lot of money should view it with due diligence.
It is a sighted, subjective test.
There are very respected people in audio, with widely differing ideas and opinions. Subjective opinions are all over the place.
(ahem) I will say as an aside that I have been, recently, been having entirely too much fun playing with oil-filled capacitors that probably are expensive enough to amount to a down payment for a decent automobile -- needless to say, the caps are on loan to me (not mine)!
He's not testing them one against the other. He is giving a listening impression of each and trying to subjectively rate them on a scale of 1 thru 10 while giving some insight to the score.
A more accurate test would be to listen to one randomly, unaware, get the listening impressions and score, and THEN see which it was.
Either way, someone spending a lot of money should view it with due diligence.
It is a sighted, subjective test.
There are very respected people in audio, with widely differing ideas and opinions. Subjective opinions are all over the place.
Why and how is it more accurate? Details please. Don't make a vague blanket statement w/o some back up. Also, be specific with your detail as it pertains to this scenario of capacitor listening impressions. I don't want to hear parroting about generalities.
I'll let you in on a little secret, audio listening is subjective.
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass
His reviews are just one tool, no one said it's the capacitor bible. Give the people here some credit for knowing how to use this information.
H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass
Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S-Tubes add soul!
KM, name what capacitor brands you have used and how you chose to use what you did.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
If one is trying to save money using np electrolytic caps would the quality of the bypass cap be of benefit? If one had a 250uf cap would a 200uf electrolytic with a 50uf quality bypass cap offer any benefit over a cheap bypass cap?
Earlier in the thread the OP mentioned the idea of bypass caps but mentioned the low price branded caps. I was just wondering if it might make a difference.
Comments
It ain't cheap...but worth it. Even the original crossovers showed sonic improvement getting out of the "box".
"Things" (read components) change value when introduced to vibration. However slight or massive, they change. Crossover models do not account for that change. Heat is another thing that can affect "things".
Isolating them for me proved to pay off. YMMV.
FWIW.
Tom
~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~
~ When the law ends, tyranny begins ~
Thanks for the explanation and the photos. Very nice. An epic set up. Good work!
You've seen my boutique XOs:
Take special note of the Machina Dynamica resonance-quencing paper towel substrate, folded to a Golden Ratio.
Outstanding work as expected, Doc. The gator clips are arranged as such to keep the electrons from spinning out of the wire, I presume?
Pfft....rookies....
Tom
~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~
~ When the law ends, tyranny begins ~
If the stones were heated, and applied by a redheaded masseuse, then I'd agree there might be a benefit...!
Now stop posting here and get on with the soldering!
I see Jeff recommended what he did because of your budget, not that they were the absolute best choice.
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
Well, many of Jeff's recommendations were actually more expensive than if I'd just used the cheaper SoniCap equivalent. In looking at the capacitors that SoniCap offers, for the 4, 6, 8, and 24uF values, my total cost would have been $85.51 each speaker. Jeff's recommendations totaled $148.41. Plus, I never claimed or inferred that Jeff's suggestions "were the absolute best choice". I only said that I trusted his judgment. So, I'm not sure what your point is?
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
I guess there's no need for more than one brand of capacitor? I suppose Audyn, ClarityCap, Jantzen, Mundorf, and all the others, are fooling themselves? Wasting their time and our money? Heck, I suppose I should just continue to use the 37 year old electrolytic capacitors that are still in the speakers? No harm in that. So, Go SoniCap, or Go Home! Ra, Ra, Ra...! Naw. I'm happy with my choices. But, I'm also glad that you're happy with yours! That's how free will works!
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
But, I am getting it! Mundorf uses the exact same manufacturing process for both the EVO series and the Supreme series. In fact, the Supreme's are manufactured using 2 EVO caps wired in series. So, not much chance of having different sonic signatures, to such an extreme, that it'll have a negative sonic impact. One of the many reasons why I choice to try Mundorf capacitors.
6moons.com/industryfeatures/mundorf/1.html
Scroll down
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
I've looked at this site a few times before. Do you give credence to this guy? I know nothing about him.
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
H9
Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
No, he uses no controls to make his comparisons, and is aware of what he is using during his comparisons.
That tends to make his "conclusions", extremely biased.
Kinda like asking which is pepsi or coke and having the cans right in front of you with the names on them.
B+W-Sold
Electro Voice EV-SIX
Infinity-Sold
Advent-Now gone
Yamaha A-S801
Yamaha RX-V377
Yamaha RX-A860
Yamaha RX-A3060
Harman Kardon Hk-350i
Harman Kardon Hk-........
Harman Kardon PM-665
Harman Kardon HK-775
Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver
Other; S60'S, M10 series II, M7C's, Hafler XL600 amp, RB-980BX, Parasound HCA-1500 amp , P5 preamp, all in storage. All vintage Polk have had crossover rebuilds and tweeter upgrades.
tonyb said " but even socialists can do a good thing here and there
Social media makes dumb people dumber and smart people dumb then dumber.
Are you saying his method is not what I described?
He compares capacitors with full knowledge of the brand and price.
Perhaps you can explain how that could be Impartial or unbiased??
If you have information saying otherwise, please give it a go. If not....
B+W-Sold
Electro Voice EV-SIX
Infinity-Sold
Advent-Now gone
Yamaha A-S801
Yamaha RX-V377
Yamaha RX-A860
Yamaha RX-A3060
Harman Kardon Hk-350i
Harman Kardon Hk-........
Harman Kardon PM-665
Harman Kardon HK-775
Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver
I am more of an Iced tea person!
B+W-Sold
Electro Voice EV-SIX
Infinity-Sold
Advent-Now gone
Yamaha A-S801
Yamaha RX-V377
Yamaha RX-A860
Yamaha RX-A3060
Harman Kardon Hk-350i
Harman Kardon Hk-........
Harman Kardon PM-665
Harman Kardon HK-775
Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver
Biased how? He is noting his listening experiences, not trying to compare A&B to each other picking whether A or B is better.
He doesn't always recommend the highest priced one, nor does he always recommend an entire brand, so he doesn't appear to be price or brand biased, so what other bias is there in this situation?
If YOU had 20-30 items to compare, just exactly how would you do that?
Sheesh, you really have no clue and just want to keep parroting the same argument whether it fits the scenario or not.
Zero credibility you have
H9
Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
A more accurate test would be to listen to one randomly, unaware, get the listening impressions and score, and THEN see which it was.
Either way, someone spending a lot of money should view it with due diligence.
It is a sighted, subjective test.
There are very respected people in audio, with widely differing ideas and opinions. Subjective opinions are all over the place.
B+W-Sold
Electro Voice EV-SIX
Infinity-Sold
Advent-Now gone
Yamaha A-S801
Yamaha RX-V377
Yamaha RX-A860
Yamaha RX-A3060
Harman Kardon Hk-350i
Harman Kardon Hk-........
Harman Kardon PM-665
Harman Kardon HK-775
Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver
I have several of these I have been hauling around because I cannot bring myself to throw anything not broken away. PM inbound to the good Doc
Why and how is it more accurate? Details please. Don't make a vague blanket statement w/o some back up. Also, be specific with your detail as it pertains to this scenario of capacitor listening impressions. I don't want to hear parroting about generalities.
I'll let you in on a little secret, audio listening is subjective.
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass
His reviews are just one tool, no one said it's the capacitor bible. Give the people here some credit for knowing how to use this information.
H9
Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
Earlier in the thread the OP mentioned the idea of bypass caps but mentioned the low price branded caps. I was just wondering if it might make a difference.