Which capacitor brands, and why...???

K_M

F1nut wrote: »

KM, name what capacitor brands you have used and how you chose to use what you did.

I read, that site mentioned above, spoke to several guys that design DIY speakers, Spoke to a few that design retail speakers and DIY speakers, and read a lot of views going both ways on several audio forums.

Erse(2 types) Dayton audio,(2 types) Solen,(1 type)jantzen,(2 Types) clarity (3 types)and mundorf.(3 types)

I like to take in all views, but will not hesitate to say, some hold less water with me.

I really did like the Humble Cap comparison and found it a great resource in some ways. Just was not a verified test, but more towards subjective and no controls.

I am simply pointing out various ways of comparing. Some ways tend to be more verifiable.

heiney9

I haven't seen you point to anything beyond broad generalizations as to why anything someone posts is no good.

Sounds to me like you took in a bunch of subjective sources of info (while pointing out the major flaw in Humble Hifi's approach which is just as subjective) but yet not getting specific about what information you gleened from all your audio forums, people talked to, and I don't know what "views going both ways" even means (again very general).

You refuse to ever get specific all the while making negative blanket statements why a blog like Humble HiFi is all wrong.

H9

heiney9

littlewoodboats wrote: »

If one is trying to save money using np electrolytic caps would the quality of the bypass cap be of benefit? If one had a 250uf cap would a 200uf electrolytic with a 50uf quality bypass cap offer any benefit over a cheap bypass cap?

Earlier in the thread the OP mentioned the idea of bypass caps but mentioned the low price branded caps. I was just wondering if it might make a difference.

In this scenario the best solution is to get a good 250uF cap. I personally don't like bypass caps even on good caps. Bypassing an electrolytic is just plain foolish and won't get you the best results in sound.

Some advocate bypass caps, but I bet if you asked someone in the know they would discourage bypassing an electrolytic. They did it 20 years ago because large value poly caps were very expensive or unavailable. That's not the case today. 20 years ago it was a cost cutting method, that gave marginally better sound over the electrolytic.

H9

heiney9

K_M I did ask you to demonstrate how you would evaluate 20-30 caps? I have yet to hear any specifics other than:
I am simply pointing out various ways of comparing. Some ways tend to be more verifiable.

What ways? How are they more verifiable, specifically?

You based your decision on a battery of subjective information, yet it seems only the subjective material you approve of is acceptable, while other subjective information (you don't approve) is to be held to the strictest of scrutiny.

If I am mistaken about how you made your cap selection, and your cap decisions were made on hard, verifiable, unshakeable proof.......please we'd all be very interested in this information.

I bet one of your biases was low cost.

H9

P.s. Get ready for more deflection form K_M.

vmaxer

K_M wrote: »

OleBoot wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

Scroll down

I've looked at this site a few times before. Do you give credence to this guy? I know nothing about him.

No, he uses no controls to make his comparisons, and is aware of what he is using during his comparisons.
That tends to make his "conclusions", extremely biased.


Kinda like asking which is pepsi or coke and having the cans right in front of you with the names on them.

I like the way you think and totally agree one should be blinded when comparing anything to remove any and all bias.


This is exactly what I try to explain to guys when I am trying to make a major purchase, it has to be blindly compared to other competition - no exceptions.

























No matter how hard I have tried to explain and even though some have agreed to a point - absolutely none of the car dealers will let me test drive a car blind.

How am I to make a good decision knowing full well I am in a Yugo one time and a Mercedes the other??

It just isn't fair I tell ya.

F1nut

K_M wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

KM, name what capacitor brands you have used and how you chose to use what you did.

I read, that site mentioned above, spoke to several guys that design DIY speakers, Spoke to a few that design retail speakers and DIY speakers, and read a lot of views going both ways on several audio forums.

Erse(2 types) Dayton audio,(2 types) Solen,(1 type)jantzen,(2 Types) clarity (3 types)and mundorf.(3 types)

I like to take in all views, but will not hesitate to say, some hold less water with me.

I really did like the Humble Cap comparison and found it a great resource in some ways. Just was not a verified test, but more towards subjective and no controls.

I am simply pointing out various ways of comparing. Some ways tend to be more verifiable.

So, your choices were basically subjective, which is pretty much what you were railing against.

littlewoodboats

heiney9 wrote: »

littlewoodboats wrote: »

If one is trying to save money using np electrolytic caps would the quality of the bypass cap be of benefit? If one had a 250uf cap would a 200uf electrolytic with a 50uf quality bypass cap offer any benefit over a cheap bypass cap?

Earlier in the thread the OP mentioned the idea of bypass caps but mentioned the low price branded caps. I was just wondering if it might make a difference.

In this scenario the best solution is to get a good 250uF cap. I personally don't like bypass caps even on good caps. Bypassing an electrolytic is just plain foolish and won't get you the best results in sound.

H9

I know you sold gear back when so did the mass market use bypass caps to compensate for the 20% EL caps used at the time?

P.S. we are loving the 585. Thanks Brock

mhardy6647

Not that I have a clue or anything -- but personally I would have to think that a non-blind aural comparison of a bevy of capacitors of interest, even if methodologically suspect, would be far, far better than just picking capacitors without even listening.

That being said, I am working my way through totally empirical aural testing of a pretty miscellaneous box full of borrowed capacitors for the treble section of the Frankenaltecs even now.

You know, a small box full of 10 to 40 uF oil filled (mostly) capacitors is pretty hefty.

K_M

F1nut wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

KM, name what capacitor brands you have used and how you chose to use what you did.

I read, that site mentioned above, spoke to several guys that design DIY speakers, Spoke to a few that design retail speakers and DIY speakers, and read a lot of views going both ways on several audio forums.

Erse(2 types) Dayton audio,(2 types) Solen,(1 type)jantzen,(2 Types) clarity (3 types)and mundorf.(3 types)

I like to take in all views, but will not hesitate to say, some hold less water with me.

I really did like the Humble Cap comparison and found it a great resource in some ways. Just was not a verified test, but more towards subjective and no controls.

I am simply pointing out various ways of comparing. Some ways tend to be more verifiable.

So, your choices were basically subjective, which is pretty much what you were railing against.

Sure, I will let you have the last word!

FTGV

heiney9 wrote: »

Bypassing an electrolytic is just plain foolish.... but I bet if you asked someone in the know they would discourage bypassing an electrolytic.

Is Tony Mr Humble himself in the know?A quick look at the crossovers in some of his designs would show he is a big proponent of using multiple paralleled caps and bypassing.
Also dependant upon the actual budget and performance goals many well known (at least in DIY circles)DIY loudspeaker designers will use electrolytics paralelled with film caps.This usually in the low frequency circuits were large values are required. Large >100 uf film caps can get very spendy and physically large.Many contend that paralelling a film that accounts for 10% or more of the total value improves the sonic result.Not as good as a single large film but better than the non bypassed "lytic".My highly subjective opinion agrees.

vmaxer

TTT

F1nut

I'm not sure, but I think Brock meant film, not electrolytic.

heiney9

No I did mean electrolytic as my assumption was the question was about using a small film cap to bypass a cheap electrolytic. I would never recommend that personally, but I'm sure some will and have done it.

Bottom line, in my experience and others I hold in high regard, I don't care for bypassing ANY cap with another cap; even if it's regarded a much better cap. Get the correct value you feel comfortable with (price), end of story.

H9

FTGV

Adding a really small value cap to a large electrolytic is not going to buy you much. But as the percentage of total capacitance made up by the film cap in a paralleled electrolytic -film combo increases the greater the benefit.Remember non polar electrolytics are only available in certain standard values.Therefore adding another cap in parallel is many times necessary to get the target value. Using a film for the needed extra capacitance makes sense.Certainly many world class designers like Richard Vandersteen,the late Jim Theil and many others do not think it foolish to use a film -electrolytic combination in the low frequency sections of their speakers.

FTGV

heiney9 wrote: »

Bottom line, in my experience and others I hold in high regard, I don't care for bypassing ANY cap with another cap; even if it's regarded a much better cap.

H9

For clarification ,then this would put your position exactly 180 degrees out of phase (pun intended) with Mr Gee(Humble) who's subjective observations you were previously defending. I was not aware you were much into DIY so was'nt aware you had a lot of practical experience with such.

mhardy6647

The idea of paralleling large & small value capacitors, at least as I understand it, is to provide low ESR (equivalent series resistance) across the broadest possible frequency range. In other words (and, again, as I understand it) parallelling coupling capacitors between stages in a vacuum tube amplifier (e.g., voltage amplifier to power amplifier -- or to the phase splitter, as the case may be) probably makes good sense.

In the case of crossovers, I dunno how much that'd matter (given that the bandwidth is limited, by definition, since it's a crossover).

heiney9

FTGV wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

Bottom line, in my experience and others I hold in high regard, I don't care for bypassing ANY cap with another cap; even if it's regarded a much better cap.

H9

For clarification ,then this would put your position exactly 180 degrees out of phase (pun intended) with Mr Gee(Humble) who's subjective observations you were previously defending. I was not aware you were much into DIY so was'nt aware you had a lot of practical experience with such.

Sorry Fred, there are no absolutes, I can agree with Tony Gee about a lot of what he states (subjectively), but I don't have to agree entirely in every single instance. Also, it's my OPINION and I think I made it quite clear it was my OPINION.

You can pick apart my posts all you want and take a sentence or two here and there out of context and make assumptions about what I meant or didn't mean.

But, I don't care for bypass caps and that is but one opinion (most readers should get that's it's a single opinion). As your stance is your opinion as well.

I encourage everyone to try for yourself and decide, then there will be no question which situation is best.

H9

FTGV

FTGV wrote: »

Adding a really small value cap to a large electrolytic is not going to buy you much. But as the percentage of total capacitance made up by the film cap in a paralleled electrolytic -film combo increases the greater the benefit...

I reiterate that adding a very small film bypass across a "lytic" is not going to give you much at least in a crossover. However many accomplished loudspeaker designers contend that when the proportion of the superior dielectric of a paralleled film cap increases substantially subjective results improve.
On the other hand paralleling or bypassing a quality film cap is highly questionable though some noted designers like to do so.

FTGV

heiney9 wrote: »

there are no absolutes,
H9

Exactly Brock.But many times you seem to present things as cut and dry absolutes. I think anyone who posts absolutes are fair game to be questioned on it. Certainly you seem to have no problem doing so and many times have absolutely hammered and belittled posters with whom technical viewpoints opposed yours.While yes many times I have disagreed with you I have never done so disrespectfully as far as I am aware.

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

FTGV wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

Bottom line, in my experience and others I hold in high regard, I don't care for bypassing ANY cap with another cap; even if it's regarded a much better cap.

H9

For clarification ,then this would put your position exactly 180 degrees out of phase (pun intended) with Mr Gee(Humble) who's subjective observations you were previously defending. I was not aware you were much into DIY so was'nt aware you had a lot of practical experience with such.

I encourage everyone to try for yourself and decide, then there will be no question which situation is best.

H9

Ya if it was that easy....

Have you never heard of Bias or expectation to name a couple of maybe a dozen things that alter our Opinion or thoughts of how we hear?
The guy that thinks bypassing may be a good idea, will tend to "hear" it as better.
The guy that thinks it stinks, will tend to "hear" it as stinky sounding.

F1nut

Are you sure the reflection in the mirror is actually you?

K_M

FTGV wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

there are no absolutes,
H9

Exactly Brock.But many times you seem to present things as cut and dry absolutes. I think anyone who posts absolutes are fair game to be questioned on it. Certainly you seem to have no problem doing so and many times have absolutely hammered and belittled posters with whom technical viewpoints opposed yours.While yes many times I have disagreed with you I have never done so disrespectfully as far as I am aware.

Nothing is absolute, except what I think is absolute.

The audiophile mantra, as seen on this forum absolutely.
Everything is open to human interpretation, and nothing is absolute except......

The same couple dozen things I see repeated over and over on this forum, as if everyone repeating them, has heard every audio system in every type of room and has the same exact listening perception, and biases that everyone else has.

Audiophile herd mentality.
Nothing is absolute, except what "We" think is absolute....lol

F1nut

Must you thread crap every time you post? It's beyond old.

lightman1

FTGV

lightman1 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pgPq4FGWfk

K_M

F1nut wrote: »

Must you thread crap every time you post? It's beyond old.

You do realize, ^^^^^^^ that post^^^^^^^^ is a thread-crap???

F1nut

At least I know what I'm talking about. You wish you did.

Don't show up to a gun fight with a knife.

motorhead43026

^^a rubber knife at that.

ALL212

StimpyWan wrote: »

Long time lurker here at Club Polk, but I seldom, if ever post. I've always been a Polk fan, and have owned a few models. Nothing Polk currently, but my first exposure to a 'high end' system were Monitor 10's (Peerless tweeters) on a Carver Cube amp. Nice.

Now, my confusion. I want to do a recap on my Acoustic Research AR90 speakers. Bought new by me, when I worked at a 'sister' Teledyne plant. So, they're old (like me) and due a refresh. As such, I'm hoping for good feedback!

I'm looking at capacitors above the standard entry level poly brands like Solen, Dayton, and Erse. Though, one of those brands will most likely be used for the parallel shunt values.

As to my sound preferences, I like an open airy sound. Not closed in, but not etched either. I like neutral and natural, but not too warm. Plus, detail. Love that. Brands I'm considering are Audyn Plus, Clarity Cap ESA, Mundorf EVO Oil, and Sonic Caps. But, do any of those qualify with the type of sound I'm looking for? Very confused as some users swear by Brand A, but not B. Some like B but not A. So, Help!

Oh yea, the AR90s have 4, 6, 24, and 80uF series caps, and 8, 30, 40, and 350uF shunt caps. I'll probably use the stock inductors. I will be replacing resistors too. Probably use Mills for those.

Thanks for reading and helping!

Stimpy

I believe your comment " The reason I'm inquiring here about this, is capacitor discussions here are always civil and informative!" can now be thrown out the window but this looks like fun.

I've rebuilt dozens of speaker crossovers. Specifically Boston Acoustics, JBL, Dahlquist, AV123 and most recently Carver. I've built close to a dozen Bottlehead kits and not one went together stock. I'm stating this to express that I have some experience in this but I'm not an engineer nor do I intend to come across as some kind of expert. But I've done a few...

I've used Solen, Audyn, Clarity, Mundorf, Jantzen, Dayton, Sonic and possibly a few others I've forgotten.

Your idea for using the stock inductors is a good idea. In most cases inductors don't go "bad". Inductors of any brand will bring your rebuild cost up. Mills resistors are what I favor.

Based on the sizes you've listed above you shouldn't have issues with size until you get to the 80uf and certainly the 350uf's. I've just used a pair of 180uf Solens in parallel to replace some 175uf electrolytics. (think two rolls of quarters now replaced with two skinny 12 oz. cans of pop) Size made this a bit of an issue but I worked around it. I've used up to 220uf film caps.

In addition to size you'll need to consider cost. Film caps cost money and in the larger sizes it can certainly break the bank and end up being prohibitive to purchase.

As far as sound goes. In my experience I like the Sonic Cap Gen I's. This is a good, medium cost cap that sounds very neutral. It's my go to cap brand. If I'm working with output/coupling caps of very low value I might spring for Mundorf (but they seem to take a very long time to break in) but I prefer the Clarity MR line. I know folks that have used the Sonic Cap Platinum line with very good results.

It appears this thread has wandered into a discussion on tipping caps. I've tipped electrolytics with film caps with very good results. Specifically in the Bottlehead Crack headphone amp. The coupling caps are 100uf and in a film size they are very hard to fit into the stock chassis. I've used 100uf stock electrolytics and tipped them with various sizes of either Sonic or Clarity with very good results - meaning the sound quality did improve - empirically.

I've also tipped film caps with film caps and also have experienced an improvement in the sound quality of the speakers. This is specifically in the Carver Silver Amazings that I've rebuilt. I have a pair of 180uf Solens tipped with a 2.7uf Sonic Gen 1. The tubbiness immediately went away.

If you do tip keep in mind that removing that particular cap takes no more effort than a quick snip if placed correctly.

So - before the critics chime in with the usual crucifixion (it is Easter - let's theme this) let me repeat:

"I have some experience in this but I'm not an engineer nor do I intend to come across as some kind of expert. But I've done a few..."

If you need any help please PM me if you so desire.

Aaron

StimpyWan

Well, I take a few weeks off, to work on my recap, and things here are still crazy! At least we're all enthusiastic about audio, I suppose? Or maybe just happy to argue!

I finally finished the recap tonight. I did a single crossover recap, did some quick listening checks, then proceeded with the second crossover. Next up, damp the woofer baskets with Sonic Barrier, add a couple of cabinet braces, and then clean up / refinish the cabinets. Still debating about new grill cloth?

As to the capacitors, as mentioned, Mundorf on the series positions, and Axon True Caps on the shunts. Except the 350uF, that's a Mundorf E-Cap, Axon poly hybrid-mix! (Shudder). But, I'll suffer with it. Most of the Mundorfs are EVO Oils. The only exception, is where I needed to parallel capacitors to add up to the correct value. Those are EVO Oil plus Mundorf Supreme, or Oils plus Supreme Silver Oil, depending on driver.

Now, the listening tests (between a stock speaker and the first recapped crossover). I did a quick hook up of a Yamaha DSP-A3090 (it was in the same room and still a solid amp) and a Pioneer DV-563a disc spinner. Music was the new Jon Anderson / Roine Stolt release. Mainly due to the fact that I like Jon Anderson, and he has a distinctive voice. I used a cheap 'sacrificial' woofer for a wiring check before any in depth listening. I didn't want to blow an AR driver, if I'd screwed up somewhere. Once I confirmed that my recap was mistake free, I wired in just an AR upper midrange dome, on the new crossover. No other driver, just tested the dome. Once fired up, it only took a few seconds to hear a difference. I was hearing a much more open sound from the new crossover. Smooth, and detailed. And very extended in range. Which surprised me, as the single dome, on the new x-over was out putting a wider range of sound, than the tweeter and dome mid combined, in the stock speaker! In fact, the old speaker sounded dark, muted, and compressed in comparison. No dynamics, and very closed in. Also, my son walked through during the test. He stopped and listened, and confirmed what I was hearing. Plus, he mentioned that the stock speaker had a lot of static noise in the sound too, compared to the new crossover. So, even though my speakers were always treated with respect, were never cranked, and always babied, the sound from the stock crossover wasn't pleasant. I guess those old NPE's do fail with age.

Further listening tests will definitely be performed when both speakers are completed. And then I'll use a spare set of stock crossovers, with a spare dome, to compare to the Mundorfs, in order to judge their performance against something close to stock in sound.

Thanks to everyone for contributing, and thanks to ALL212 for bringing the conversation back to the start!