Which capacitor brands, and why...???
Comments
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Who's treitz3? He must be a local redneck somewhere's...
It ain't cheap...but worth it. Even the original crossovers showed sonic improvement getting out of the "box".
"Things" (read components) change value when introduced to vibration. However slight or massive, they change. Crossover models do not account for that change. Heat is another thing that can affect "things".
Isolating them for me proved to pay off. YMMV.
FWIW.
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
mhardy6647 wrote: »mhardy6647 wrote: »
Well, I'm in a lucky position, concerning my recap. I have a spare set of crossovers, and a spare set of dome mids. So, I can change caps, and add or remove bypass capacitors, to test the sound quality of the combinations, prior to actually installing anything in the cabinets. All in the name of science!
Cool -- I am all about good science, needless to say.
I like...!
Yeah, huh?
Problem is, I'd have to sell the loudspeakers to afford the caps to use on 'em. Sort of an O. Henry-esque dilemma, you know
They're on loan to use as a reference point in comparing other (mere mortal) caps on the FrankenAltecs. My lord, the WE capacitors perform XO duties smooooooooooooooothly and sweetly.
I wondered if you were using those on horns. Any pics of the FrankenAltecs?
Pictures?
umm, yeah...
So this is nearing a final configuration. It's a long story, parts of which are floatin' around this forum already.
The Altec Duplex 604 family of coaxial drivers is one of the best sounding midrange speakers extant It lacks extension at either end (especially in the treble) and while it can do a nice 3D image (as a stereo pair, that is!) it's one of those "head in a vise" things -- the sweet spot for the best stereo is pretty narrow.
So, long story short, I've been dinking around with alternatives for the treble but still using the woofer section of the Duplex (mostly because I don't happen to have a pair of Altec 515 woofers just gatherin' dust here someplace).
So: Woofer sections of the 604Es (which are roughly equivalent to 515s) still in 8 ft^3 vented cabinets. 604E treble drivers (essentially 288s) disconnected.
Treble provided by Altec 802D drivers mounted to Emilar EH500-2 horns (or JBL 2441 2" drivers... that's another story entirely).
Supertweetage provided by Fostex T90A bullet horns.
Crossovers are first order on all three drivers. 500 (or 600, or so) Hz for the woofer and treble driver, nominal 20kHz for the supertweeter. Pads on the treble and supertweeter drivers to match them to the less-sensitive woofers.
Not perfect, but nice -- and dollar per dollar pretty amazing with 3.5 watts per channel (SE 2A3).
Sorry, that wasn't too concise, was it?
DSC_7250 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(OK, so they're not very photogenic -- but I do intend to pad the tops of the cabinets with something better than an old beach towel, or an old flannel shirt. Honest.)
DSC_6844 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
Thanks for the explanation and the photos. Very nice. An epic set up. Good work! -
mhardy6647 wrote: »Seems to me that, at some point, huge-mongous boutique XO components installed internally might start to decrease the internal volume of a loudspeaker cabinet enough to be worth thinking about.
Do like @treitz3 and build a bigass box outside of the enclosure. Presto! Volume is still within tolerence!
You've seen my boutique XOs:
DSC_7289 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
Take special note of the Machina Dynamica resonance-quencing paper towel substrate, folded to a Golden Ratio. -
mhardy6647 wrote: »mhardy6647 wrote: »Seems to me that, at some point, huge-mongous boutique XO components installed internally might start to decrease the internal volume of a loudspeaker cabinet enough to be worth thinking about.
Do like @treitz3 and build a bigass box outside of the enclosure. Presto! Volume is still within tolerence!
You've seen my boutique XOs:DSC_7289 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
Take special note of the Machina Dynamica resonance-quencing paper towel substrate, folded to a Golden Ratio.
Outstanding work as expected, Doc. The gator clips are arranged as such to keep the electrons from spinning out of the wire, I presume? -
Where are the Shakti Stones?
Pfft....rookies....
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Where are the Shakti Stones?
Pfft....rookies....
Tom
If the stones were heated, and applied by a redheaded masseuse, then I'd agree there might be a benefit...!
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I once got my stones heated by a redhead.
Now stop posting here and get on with the soldering! -
I looked at and read up on as many brands as possible. Just trying to educate myself on variables. But, in the end, I mostly followed the recommendations of Jeff at Sonic Craft. I figured he was expert enough for me. The only mention from him, for a SoniCap, was a 4uF cap, in the treble circuit. Jeff thought the Mundorf's would work best for the other values. So, I ordered all Mundorf, to be consistent.
I see Jeff recommended what he did because of your budget, not that they were the absolute best choice.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I looked at and read up on as many brands as possible. Just trying to educate myself on variables. But, in the end, I mostly followed the recommendations of Jeff at Sonic Craft. I figured he was expert enough for me. The only mention from him, for a SoniCap, was a 4uF cap, in the treble circuit. Jeff thought the Mundorf's would work best for the other values. So, I ordered all Mundorf, to be consistent.
I see Jeff recommended what he did because of your budget, not that they were the absolute best choice.
Well, many of Jeff's recommendations were actually more expensive than if I'd just used the cheaper SoniCap equivalent. In looking at the capacitors that SoniCap offers, for the 4, 6, 8, and 24uF values, my total cost would have been $85.51 each speaker. Jeff's recommendations totaled $148.41. Plus, I never claimed or inferred that Jeff's suggestions "were the absolute best choice". I only said that I trusted his judgment. So, I'm not sure what your point is? -
So, you would have saved money, real estate and had a consistent tonal quality because those different versions of Mundorf have different tonal qualities. Other than that, no point.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
So, you would have saved money, real estate and had a consistent tonal quality because those different versions of Mundorf have different tonal qualities. Other than that, no point.
I guess there's no need for more than one brand of capacitor? I suppose Audyn, ClarityCap, Jantzen, Mundorf, and all the others, are fooling themselves? Wasting their time and our money? Heck, I suppose I should just continue to use the 37 year old electrolytic capacitors that are still in the speakers? No harm in that. So, Go SoniCap, or Go Home! Ra, Ra, Ra...! Naw. I'm happy with my choices. But, I'm also glad that you're happy with yours! That's how free will works!
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You're not getting it. All brands have different sonic signatures and within those brands their different series have different sonic signatures. Therefore, if at all possible I believe it is best to stay with the same series regardless of the brand.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You're not getting it. All brands have different sonic signatures and within those brands their different series have different sonic signatures. Therefore, if at all possible I believe it is best to stay with the same series regardless of the brand.
But, I am getting it! Mundorf uses the exact same manufacturing process for both the EVO series and the Supreme series. In fact, the Supreme's are manufactured using 2 EVO caps wired in series. So, not much chance of having different sonic signatures, to such an extreme, that it'll have a negative sonic impact. One of the many reasons why I choice to try Mundorf capacitors.
6moons.com/industryfeatures/mundorf/1.html -
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I've looked at this site a few times before. Do you give credence to this guy? I know nothing about him. -
He is highly respected.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
He is a very knowledgable and accomplished loudspeaker designer.However one mans subjective options are just that,subjective.So should not be deemed as absolute IMO.
I've looked at this site a few times before. Do you give credence to this guy? I know nothing about him. -
Use Humblehomemadehifi as a guide.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I've looked at this site a few times before. Do you give credence to this guy? I know nothing about him.
No, he uses no controls to make his comparisons, and is aware of what he is using during his comparisons.
That tends to make his "conclusions", extremely biased.
Kinda like asking which is pepsi or coke and having the cans right in front of you with the names on them. -
^^And as if we should give any credence to K_M's blathering.The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
It is imperative that we recognize that an opinion is not a fact. -
motorhead43026 wrote: »^^And as if we should give any credence to K_M's blathering.
Are you saying his method is not what I described?
He compares capacitors with full knowledge of the brand and price.
Perhaps you can explain how that could be Impartial or unbiased??
If you have information saying otherwise, please give it a go. If not....
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Pepsi or Coke? may be the same but distinctively different!
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Pepsi or Coke? may be the same but distinctively different!
I am more of an Iced tea person! -
I've looked at this site a few times before. Do you give credence to this guy? I know nothing about him.
No, he uses no controls to make his comparisons, and is aware of what he is using during his comparisons.
That tends to make his "conclusions", extremely biased.
Kinda like asking which is pepsi or coke and having the cans right in front of you with the names on them.
Biased how? He is noting his listening experiences, not trying to compare A&B to each other picking whether A or B is better.
He doesn't always recommend the highest priced one, nor does he always recommend an entire brand, so he doesn't appear to be price or brand biased, so what other bias is there in this situation?
If YOU had 20-30 items to compare, just exactly how would you do that?
Sheesh, you really have no clue and just want to keep parroting the same argument whether it fits the scenario or not.
Zero credibility you have
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
He's not testing them one against the other. He is giving a listening impression of each and trying to subjectively rate them on a scale of 1 thru 10 while giving some insight to the score.
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
He's not testing them one against the other. He is giving a listening impression of each and trying to subjectively rate them on a scale of 1 thru 10 while giving some insight to the score.
A more accurate test would be to listen to one randomly, unaware, get the listening impressions and score, and THEN see which it was.
Either way, someone spending a lot of money should view it with due diligence.
It is a sighted, subjective test.
There are very respected people in audio, with widely differing ideas and opinions. Subjective opinions are all over the place.
Post edited by K_M on -
mhardy6647 wrote: »(ahem) I will say as an aside that I have been, recently, been having entirely too much fun playing with oil-filled capacitors that probably are expensive enough to amount to a down payment for a decent automobile -- needless to say, the caps are on loan to me (not mine)!
DSC_7330 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
I have several of these I have been hauling around because I cannot bring myself to throw anything not broken away. PM inbound to the good Doc -
He's not testing them one against the other. He is giving a listening impression of each and trying to subjectively rate them on a scale of 1 thru 10 while giving some insight to the score.
A more accurate test would be to listen to one randomly, unaware, get the listening impressions and score, and THEN see which it was.
Either way, someone spending a lot of money should view it with due diligence.
It is a sighted, subjective test.
There are very respected people in audio, with widely differing ideas and opinions. Subjective opinions are all over the place.
Why and how is it more accurate? Details please. Don't make a vague blanket statement w/o some back up. Also, be specific with your detail as it pertains to this scenario of capacitor listening impressions. I don't want to hear parroting about generalities.
I'll let you in on a little secret, audio listening is subjective.
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass
His reviews are just one tool, no one said it's the capacitor bible. Give the people here some credit for knowing how to use this information.
H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
KM, name what capacitor brands you have used and how you chose to use what you did.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
If one is trying to save money using np electrolytic caps would the quality of the bypass cap be of benefit? If one had a 250uf cap would a 200uf electrolytic with a 50uf quality bypass cap offer any benefit over a cheap bypass cap?
Earlier in the thread the OP mentioned the idea of bypass caps but mentioned the low price branded caps. I was just wondering if it might make a difference.
