Pure Overkill Computer Audio Office System

2»

Comments

  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434

    My initial plan was to replace the 27 year old (1988 vintage) CD player with a DAC and run a USB cable from a computer running JRiver Media Center software. I don't particularly care for JRiver's sound quality in my home's two channel system.

    Why do you suppose this is the case? What did you hear that you don't like?
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,760
    madmax wrote: »
    What did you hear that you don't like?

    The problem was more along the lines of what I didn't hear: clarity, detail, layering, transients, all the things that are eaten up and obscured by the high electrical noise environment of the typical computer.

    It was like going from high end separates to a mass market receiver.

    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,903
    That's a good analogy Ray, a separate designated music server is built for audio, your home computer not so much. For most though, it suffices.....until you hear what the other options can do and your wallet starts crying like a baby.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • machone
    machone Posts: 1,471
    I am a firm believer that noise is main enemy of the digital signal path and that it contributes to "digital glare". 1&0's don't get from point A to point B by magic.

    This week I ditched my Dell laptop and replaced it with a Quantum Byte all solid state computer. Low power cpu so no fans or moving parts, outboard power supply x-former, wireless keyboard and mouse. I am running Jriver, feeding it into my Marantz SA8005 via USB and controlling Jriver with Gizmo.

    So far I am liking the results.

    B)xur7yux5b14n.jpg
    Mojo Audio Illuminati v3>>Quantum Byte w/LMS>>Rpi/PiCoreplayer>> Starlight 7 USB >> Mojo Audio Mystique v2 SE>>ModWright SWL 9.0 SE Signature>>Hafler DH-500 Amp+ (Musical Concepts Fully Modded)>>
    SRS 2.3TL (Fully Modded)...Velodyne Optimum 8 subwoofer
    1KVA Dreadnought

    Marantz SA 8005
    Pioneer PLX-1000 Turntable - Shure SC35C/N35X - V15III/VN35HE
    Yamaha TX-540 Tuner...Sony BDP-S570
    Sony PS4

    Separate subpanel with four dedicated 20 amp circuits.
    1. Amplification 2. Analog 3. Digital 4. Video

    "All THAT IS LOST FROM THE SOURCE IS LOST FOREVER"
  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    madmax wrote: »
    What did you hear that you don't like?

    The problem was more along the lines of what I didn't hear: clarity, detail, layering, transients, all the things that are eaten up and obscured by the high electrical noise environment of the typical computer.

    It was like going from high end separates to a mass market receiver.

    Thanks, just getting into some of this hi res stuff and first to say I am ignorate of the subject matter so far. From what I read assumed Jriver on a laptop driving via USB was the cats meow. Maybe you just saved me from some mistakes! Just playing music doesn't get it for me, it must be something special. Geesh, how much will I have to spend for something of very high quality to drive my DAC?
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,760
    madmax wrote: »
    From what I read assumed Jriver on a laptop driving via USB was the cats meow.

    JRiver on a laptop or MacBook is the cat's meow if you are not a critical listener. When I read reviews, I look to see if the reviewer mentions any of the stereophonic performance metrics that are important to me. If they just says X sounded better than Y without specifying things like sound stage, imaging, clarity, detail, etc., then the review is of no value to me with regard to evaluating stereophonic performance.
    madmax wrote: »
    Maybe you just saved me from some mistakes! Just playing music doesn't get it for me, it must be something special.

    Just playing music gets it for 95% of the population. A lot of the people who are enthralled with JRiver via a laptop are comparing that to music via a cell phone or iPod through ear buds.
    madmax wrote: »
    Geesh, how much will I have to spend for something of very high quality to drive my DAC?

    You are a vinyl enthusiast, so you know nothing "special" comes cheap. This is as true of digital as it is of analog. With that said, a good audiophile music server, such as the Bryston BDP-1, can be had for less than $1000 on the used market. If you are looking for a digital player/DAC combination to get close to the sound of vinyl, you are looking at a five figure investment for a new purchase and mid to high four figures for used equipment. I documented the trials and tribulations in my introduction to computer audio and hi-rez here:

    http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/168179/the-year-of-dacs/p1

    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    I have a DAC on order and am just now reviewing some options to go from a hard drive to the DAC for high res files. I saw the BDP1 and it looks like something I might try. The Aurender stuff for around $2600 looks pretty interesting also. I guess to start with I'll give my Oppo 105D a try since I already have it. It has digital out so I would be staying away from USB all together, I'm thinking that might be a big plus to start with. If that doesn't do anything for me I'll look more at the BDP-1 etc. Is it the USB part that causes the majority of the problem?
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 10,716
    I give this review 5 raccoon tails!
  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    Oh, and read your review on the BDP-2 vs -1, sounds like the -2 would be the way to go.
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,760
    madmax wrote: »
    Is it the USB part that causes the majority of the problem?

    The digital interface (USB, coax, AES) is not the problem. The problems come from how a particular manufacturer implements that interface.
    madmax wrote: »
    Oh, and read your review on the BDP-2 vs -1, sounds like the -2 would be the way to go.

    Yes, the BDP-2 is a much better machine. I highly recommend it. There may be other solutions that more closely fit in with your sound quality goals.

    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 10,716
    Hi DK,

    would you say the Detect is = to the powerbase in power conditioning?
    I'm debating a powerbase for my CD source. (which is sitting on pads
    that are sitting on a granite slab currently)
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,760
    would you say the Detect is = to the powerbase in power conditioning?

    No. I would think the Dectet is better.

    I've not compared the two. I'm basing this on the fact that the PowerBase is primarily an isolation platform with some power conditioning thrown in, and the fact that PS Audio CEO Paul McGowan said he does not plug anything into his PowerBases other than his P10 AC regenerators. The PowerBase was designed specifically for the P10 AC regenerator, but other components can benefit from its power filtering and vibration isolation properties.

    My DAC sounds better plugged into it's PowerBase, rather than plugged directly into the P10 AC regenerator. The DAC's PowerBase is plugged into the P10. My Cary Audio CD 306 SACD player sounded better plugged into its Power Base rather than straight to the P10. This is contrary to PS Audio's advice not to use another power filtration device between a component and a P10. I was a bit "disappointed" that the PowerBase made a small improvement in the SACD player's and DAC's performance, because it meant the expense of an additional power cord. :#

    My turntable and digital player sound better sitting on their PowerBases, but there was no additional sonic benefit, or difference, heard when each was plugged into their PowerBases.

    With all of that said, a PowerBase might provide better sound due to its combination of power conditioning and vibration abatement.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,760
    edited May 2016
    During the course of this office system upgrade, my performance goals changed from wanting a simple computer audio system to replace the antiquated CD-based audio system to wanting a significantly improved stereophonic experience.

    With that said, I was somewhat hesitant to invest in the Bryston 4B3 amp because I thought it might be too much overkill, even for an overkill office rig. I also had some concerns about the modified SDA CRS+ loudspeakers being able to render a significantly better stereophonic presentation in a small office space. I knew the CRS+s can benefit from better amplification because I have had them in my two channel rig with the Parasound Halo JC 1s and the Pass Labs X600.5s and they sounded spectacular. My concerns were unfounded because the 4B3 was a transformational improvement in stereophonic performance.

    Further Study

    I was initially planning to upgrade the Adcom GFP-750 preamplifier, but, based on the results from upgrading the DAC and power amp, I think a preamp replacement is in order. the Bryston BP-26 is at the top of the list.

    BP26-front_zpsybhsv0c8.jpg
    Bryston BP-26 preamp with MPS-2 outboard power supply.

    BP26-MPS-2_zpsdd5nh8u3.jpg


    References:

    Bryston 4B3 Power Amp Review:

    http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/172772/bryston-4b3-power-amplifier-review#latest

    Bryston BDA-3 DAC Review:

    http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/172529/bryston-bda-3-dac-review
    Post edited by DarqueKnight on
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,760
    The BP-26/MPS-2 is here...and it's staying a while.

    Bryston%20Stack%20Corner%20001-s_zps8sfmakj0.jpg
    Figure 37. My BP-26/MPS-2 and I got off to a rough start, but we're fine now.

    Bryston%20Stack-Tablet%20002cmp-C-s_zpsokys5byd.jpg
    Figure 38. I think I'll hold it here...for a while. My ears are satisfied now.

    GFP-750-BP26%20Trials%20001-s_zpskkqpmp2k.jpg
    Figure 39. The Adcom GFP-750 prepares for retirement. I'm not selling it though.
    tonyb wrote: »
    I dunno Ray, you feel the 750 is up to snuff with it's playmates ?

    No Tony, the 750 was not up to snuff with its playmates. Even with its initial rough-sounding, fresh-out-of-the-box, audition, it was clear that the BP-26 was significantly better in stereophonic performance than the 750.

    Updated Equipment List

    Bryston BDA-3 digital to analog converter
    Bryston BDP-2 digital player with IAD sound card upgrade and 500GB internal drive
    Bryston BP-26 preamp with MPS-2 power supply
    Bryston 4B3 power amp (300 wpc 8 ohms/500 wpc 4 ohms)
    PS Audio xStream Transcendent XLR interconnects for DAC and preamp
    Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver CCIC USB cable
    Revelation Audio Labs 6pin XLR Power Umbilical cable for MPS-2/BP-26
    PS Audio Premier SC power cords for DAC, digital player, power amp and preamp
    PS Audio P10 AC Regenerator
    PS Audio AC-12 power cord for P10 AC Regenerator
    Polk Audio SDA CRS+ (1989 version) loudspeakers (heavily modified)
    Douglas Connection CDF92 speaker cable (9 AWG)
    HiFi Tuning Classic Gold fuses for amp, preamp, AC regenerator
    HiFi Tuning Silver Star fuse for DAC.
    Dell Venue Pro 11 7140 tablet computer, with dock, for digital player and DAC control
    Logitech Harmony One universal remote for preamp and DAC
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,760
    Oops...I didn't notice that I had used the wrong photo link for figure 39 in the previous post.


    GFP-750-BP26%20Trials%20001-s_zpsz0hjrbo3.jpg
    Figure 39. The Adcom GFP-750 prepares for retirement. I'm not selling it though.

    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,481
    how can that puny little scrawny amp kick that behemoth of an amp's b u t t sitting on top of it? I ain't buying it....



    Say it ain't so Ray....... B)



    big dose of sarcastic ness
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,760
    That result shouldn't be surprising since all amps sound alike.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,481
    That result shouldn't be surprising since all amps sound alike.

    indeed o:)
  • mikeyb128
    mikeyb128 Posts: 2,885
    I'm saving my pennies for one of these cubed series 4B's. I had a demo lined up but didn't end up going through with it, as I know I'm going to want one.
    2 channel:
    Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
    Theater:
    Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables.

  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,760
    I read that experimenting with the placement of the BP-26's power supply could be beneficial.

    I wanted to move the MPS-2 power supply under the desk and sit it on top of the 4B3 amp. The amp's heat sinks get barely warm, therefore I wasn't concerned about heat, I was concerned about the amp's magnetic field inducing noise into the MPS-2, and thereby into the BP-26. Bryston suggested that moving the MPS-2 power supply away from the BP-26 could result in a lowered noise floor, and they said there would be no induced noise issues with placing the MPS-2 on top of the 4B3.

    BP-26-MPS-2%20Side-By-Side-s_zpsuf5fo4wb.jpg
    Figure 40. Moving the BP-26's power supply to the side lowered the noise
    floor and resulted in better bass and imaging.


    MPS2-Under%20Desk-s_zpsrjmrfpnf.jpg
    Figure 41. Moving the BP-26's power supply under the desk resulted in even better sound.

    Yes, the corner of the MPS-2 will be padded.

    3Stack%20And%20Tablet-s_zpscz2p4hj4.jpg
    Figure 42. The BDA-3 DAC's transformer does not affect the BP-26. The BDA-3's
    transformer is on the far left and the BP-26's chassis is empty on the far left side. The BP-26's far left side is for optional phono and DAC circuit boards. The MPS-2's transformer was directly under the BP-26's audio circuits on the right.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • warren
    warren Posts: 756
    Man, that's an outstanding over kill!!
    Thanks for sharing..
    Some final words,
    "If you keep banging your head against the wall,
    you're going to have headaches."
    Warren
  • hi DarqueKnight,
    i have i question for you : what's your opinion about adcom 565se compared to rotel rhb10 ?
    thank you
  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,506
    Love overkill. Great job Ray.
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,760
    edited January 2017
    hi DarqueKnight,
    i have i question for you : what's your opinion about adcom 565se compared to rotel rhb10 ?
    thank you

    I don't have any personal experience with the RHB-10. From what I have read of it, it should easily outperform the 565se ($1,500) since it was built with much higher parts and construction quality. It was a true dual mono design with two transformers. It also retailed for $2,700 in 1997, which is equivalent to $4,120 in 2017 dollars. The RHB-10 would be more comparable to the Bryston 4B3 (also a true dual mono design with two transformers) that replaced the 565se.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • AroundTheSound
    AroundTheSound Posts: 11
    edited January 2017
    thank you, indeed!!! :)
    if someone has listended the rotel rhb10, should be fine if report its impressions.