Mantis version about the TRUTH about signal cables.

CoolJazz · June 2015

xcapri79 wrote: »

For example, what does a top level manufacturer of an integrated amp use to connect the preamp portion to the amplifier portion?
How and why would this be different inside the box vs outside the box using separates?

You must not have had your coffee yet. Horrible example.

Driving a low impedance motor with a low impedance source doesn't compare at all to driving a high impedance amplifier input with only a fraction of distance between.

CJ

mantis · June 2015

xcapri79 wrote: »

mantis wrote: »

"What does it take to pass the signal correctly?".

An answer might be, "Not an interconnect costing several hundred or thousands of dollars."
For example, what does a top level manufacturer of an integrated amp use to connect the preamp portion to the amplifier portion?
How and why would this be different inside the box vs outside the box using separates?

You can't place a dollar amount on what it takes to pass the signal correctly unless you are an engineer and figured it out. You can however place a dollar amount on what you are willing to pay for it.
Top Level Manufacturers of audio( lets leave it there) products use the highest quality parts that a price point they are trying to stay within allow. It's the no holds bared products that will use the very best materials as long as someone out there is willing to pay for it. In my opinion alone , there are products in this industry I simply would never spend that kind of money on even if I was a billionaire as I don't personally see value in it.
One way I put value on cables is a percentage I learned many years ago which seems to ad up most of the time. I'll give a very general example.
If you purchase a $1000.00 pair of speakers and also purchase a $1000.00 receiver to drive them with. When purchasing speaker cables I find by limiting the budget to around $200.00 or so give or take usually will give you a nice pair of cables that will have the ability to not get in the way of what you hear out of the speakers in the level of system you built. So I ruffly stick around 20% of the systems over all cost minus the cables and use that amount to cable it. It's not a rock solid number but it's a damn good guide line to start with when deciding on cables.
Where I see fault is going to far out of that guideline in purchasing cables that are not in the same quality as the rest of the system. Here is another example.
Purchasing $1000.00 speakers and wiring them with $1000.00 cables. I find in the end you could have purchased slightly better speakers at $1500.00 and then using the other $500.00 on speaker cables and get better sound results vs the other.
I have learned this with experience wiring countless amount of systems and seeing this is practical practice of trail and error.
So this is my philosophy and it seems to work out. You can try it out or apply your own rules.
Profit dollars goes heavily into many decisions these companies make. Make no mistake on that, thats any business man. But it's nice when you find the ones who do it with great Integrity vs the ones who cut corners just to make more profit. They are the companies I do not support.

tonyb · June 2015

Passing a signal "correctly" is too simplistic of a question. Doesn't take much to pass a signal correctly, only that's not the entire goal. There are different sound signatures that you are trying to cater to at different price points. We have covered this to the extreme.

Inside the box verse outside the box ? Again, too many variables but if you could change the wires inside the box to a better wire, I'm betting you'd notice a different sound. Speaker manufactures use different wires for that purpose....inside the box.

Also, not everything warrants a better wire inside the box as there are more influential components inside. Sound....and how it's perceived, tailored, manipulated, consist of a variety of things of which the designer wishes to portray that piece, that cable, that speaker to sound like.

Much the same way a Yugo can get you from point A to point B the same as a Mercedes can. If that's the sole purpose, why buy a Mercedes ? Except it's not the sole purpose for buying a Mercedes, nor is signal transfer from point A to point B the sole purpose.

tonyb · June 2015

That's where we disagree then Kevin. If the sole purpose is to pass the signal from point A to point B, Home depot wire will do that. Even X doesn't use HD wire, nor does Mantis, nor does any hi-fi shop/show, etc.

I would attest that aside from passing the signal, cables are created, designed, to tailor the sound to a degree the designer may think is pleasing to the end user. I would also subscribe that audio myths....most but not all, follow that individuals wallet. Most audio myths are created by those unwilling to experiment to a higher degree.

ZLTFUL · June 2015

*Efficient and quality signal transfer.

Apparently, there seems to be a whole bunch of stuff that gets left out of these discussions. @drumminman nails it with his post.
Different quality copper/silver can make a difference in the efficiency and quality of signal being delivered. The geometry of the cable design can make a difference in efficiency and quality. The dielectric can make a difference in the efficiency and quality.

This isn't as black and white as some "members" would like to make it out to be. If it were, companies (power, telephone, audio, networking) would not invest millions upon millions of dollars to research cables' efficiency and quality performance. Or are @xcapri79 and @kevintomb going to try tell me that the companies with no vested interest in audio are part of some grand conspiracy to separate unsuspecting consumers from their hard earned money?

Again, it goes back to my original postulation, what does it matter what *I* or any other audiophile choose to spend our money on? Did you earn that money for me? Nope, so stfu what I spend it on.
Does it make any difference if someone listens to both "sides" and still decides to spend *their* money on high end cables? Nope, stfu and let them spend their money on whatever *they* choose.
The difference that comes out in these discussions is the naysayers will fight tooth and nail to talk you out of spending your money however you see fit even going as far as insulting your intelligence for doing so all based on something they read on an internet forum somewhere instead of actual experiences while the "believers" give their personal experiences and opinions and leave the researching party to make their own choice.

I may not always agree with you Dan, but for the most part, you express your opinions, share your experiences and then you typically stfu and let the original party make up their own minds. I appreciate and respect that and really wish the detractors would take some lessons from you.

tonyb · June 2015

In reality, you don't even have to spend the coin yourself. Go to one of the many get togethers we have, bring your cables and switch them in and out with any of the others on hand. Bring your cables to any audio show, ask to put your cables in place of what they are using and see if you can hear a difference. You only need to prove it to yourself, nobody else, one way or the other.

Participate in the cable demo's we have around here....or maybe from other audio clubs in your neck of the woods.

tonyb · June 2015

Exactly my point Skip.

But...for the sake of discussion, lets bring this back to reality.

If X or Kevin can agree that different cables can make small incremental improvements in sound, I think we can move forward. If they can agree to that, then lets look at all the cables that make up ones system. Obviously you have speaker cables, maybe numerous sets of IC's, digital cables. So scientifically speaking, because I know they like science, would not many small incremental changes add up to a bigger one ? That would be a reasonable assertion would it not ?

tonyb · June 2015

Yes, in the pre amp where they add noise.....of course.

tonyb · June 2015

kevintomb wrote: »

Speaker cable really is one of the few things that is very simple.

Its losses can be EASILY calculated by frequency and over what length and at what impedance load.

Ok, let me ask you straight up.....is that the ONLY thing that dictates how a cable will sound ?

tonyb · June 2015

Your answering a question with a question ? Typical.....

No, length in my home environment has no bearing. Not talking extremes either, wouldn't use a 20ft length where 6ft is needed.

Can either of you 2 answer any of the questions I posed to you or are we going to do this dance all day ?

ken brydson · June 2015

tonyb wrote: »

Can either of you 2 answer any of the questions I posed to you or are we going to do this dance all day ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY_DF2Af3LM

tonyb · June 2015

So your saying a cable has no sound ? Which means different metallurgy has no different sound characteristics ? Please go try some solid silver cables and get back to us. Try some made of brass, aluminum, gold plated, etc. Even different copper has a different sound characteristic.

Kevin, your basing all your assumptions on what your background in EE tells you. You base zero on what you actually hear, and that is, as I see it anyway, the problem. I would encourage you to leave your biases at home, go to some audio shows, members homes, and just listen without the EE biases.

tonyb · June 2015

Lets also take a different look, science has proven that silver is better than copper electrically speaking. Does that mean every copper cable is somehow not passing the signal correctly ? They are all broken ....inferior ?

tonyb · June 2015

xcapri79 wrote: »

But you see the cable electrical parameters (RLC) that influence cable performance vary with the cable length and using differing lengths can be much more influential than properly sized and designed cables of the same length from different makers. Furthermore, these differences are typically not audible unless one goes to very long lengths. So that is why the question of what cables one is using can be an irrelevant question in my view.

To that end, I use various makes that I've previously listed. I haven't heard the difference where an Audioquest cable performs better than an Acoustic Research cable or an Emotiva cable. All are competently made and do the job. I've witnessed demos of other cables where there is no difference to me or the other people. I've witnessed a case where an expensive speaker cable was actually slight worse than a generic 12 AWG CU connection.

Maybe I missed that, what cables on what gear ? Specifically. Comparing an entry level Audioquest cable with an entry level AR cable or equivalent isn't going to net you much in the way of differences to begin with. If that's the sole basis for your assumptions.... then you need to get out more.

Since you both are rooted in science, to do a test to discern differences in cables, you have to actually use a cable that is better than the previous one, not of the same caliber. Does that make sense to you ?

tonyb · June 2015

xcapri79 wrote: »

[ if you want to get picky. Silver is only approximately a 6 percent better conductor than copper but is considerably more expensive.

Now we are getting somewhere. So 6% better....means copper is 6% less qualified ? Less able to carry a signal correctly ?

Now add up that 6% gain in speaker cables, 2 sets of IC"s, maybe one digital cable, and that's 24% better....supposedly anyway.

As you say too, it's more expensive, and THAT is what drives your opinions, not your ears.

tonyb · June 2015

So lets recap shall we. So far, 2 members claim of biases by those who hear differences in cables, are using biases themselves to claim why they can't.

As far as I can tell, one has done a test, but used no better cables to evaluate. Hardly a test, so lets toss that out.

Science is the driving force, along with costs that form their opinions.

No experience of any worth is given with better cables.

......yet we are to accept these opinions as gospel. I would not think, even in the scientific community, given the same set of constants, they would accept such or give credit to any of it.

Don't get me wrong either, everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions, based on something or not. Except those based on something carry more weight than those that aren't.

WilliamM2 · June 2015

tonyb wrote: »

Now we are getting somewhere. So 6% better....means copper is 6% less qualified ? Less able to carry a signal correctly ?

Now add up that 6% gain in speaker cables, 2 sets of IC"s, maybe one digital cable, and that's 24% better....supposedly anyway.

As you say too, it's more expensive, and THAT is what drives your opinions, not your ears.

Sounds like you are talking about yourself.

Maybe this will help you:
http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/wire-gauge-chart.htm

As you can see, simply going up one size in wire will make copper less resistant than silver per 1000 feet. It's really not that complicated.

F1nut · June 2015

As you say too, it's more expensive, and THAT is what drives your opinions, not your ears.

Nail, head, hammer!

F1nut · June 2015

xcapri79 wrote: »

For example, what does a top level manufacturer of an integrated amp use to connect the preamp portion to the amplifier portion?

High quailty shielded copper interconnects with gold plated RCA's.

why would this be different inside the box vs outside the box using separates?

It's not.

[Deleted User] · June 2015

I got it! It's string theory! Why didn't use engineers say that in the first place.
Duh.

[Deleted User] · June 2015

perception is reality! Well aural perception with the minds eye

[Deleted User] · June 2015

That is why I'm trying to respect your opinions. You don't have
the same experiences I have or others have had in their lives.
Still, if you will not experiment (double blind or not) you are
talking out your a-hole.

[Deleted User] · June 2015

All wine is the same! It's made with grapes and gets you drunk
(to a certain level) Woody finish my azz

I want to clarify that I think people that buy $10,000
cables are on fools errand.

ZLTFUL · June 2015

kevintomb wrote: »

The automatic response it to attribute the cable, and not be open to anything else.

That is what we are saying. No one wants to consider anything but what they think matters.

And I have offered both of you the opportunity to prove all of us wrong. I figured you both would jump at the chance. It can't be that you doubt your gospel... That would be unthinkable. Clearly, you have a better grasp on cable tests than me or else you wouldn't discount my experiences completely over yours.

So put up as they say. You have an opportunity to shut everyone up once and for all. All you have to do is take it. You aren't afraid of being proven wrong...are you?

F1nut · June 2015

kevintomb wrote: »

Opinions mean next to nothing to me. Reality is what matters.

Yet, by your admisson your brain is gulliable, so how do you know what reality is?

I am not giving my Opinion.

Yes, you are.

I am stating how things work. Whether they jive with what others want to hear or believe does not matter.

So, it's your gulliable reality or nothing? Got it.

I think what I am trying to say, is when someone purchases a cable, they tend to hear a better sound. But while they may realize, Or not, that in reality, there can be very little difference electronically, they automatically attribute the change to the cable.

So, when I try a different, more expensive cable and I don't like the way it makes the music sound it's not the cable?

Many seem unable to even conveive, that the mere act of the change, is potentially what caused them to listen differently, or to listen deeper and maybe hear some detail they never heard, or to simply be very happy with their purchase, and release endorphins in their brain and be happy, and hear better sound.

You seem to believe that every cable purchase one makes will result in better sound. Clearly a biased view point and not very scientific of you.

No one wants to consider anything but what they think matters.

Read that back to yourself until it sinks in.

tonyb · June 2015

No point in carrying this any further since only one side wants to actually talk about what influences sound. While the other has only science in their empty pockets.

We repeatedly encourage people to explore new things, including cables, if you have no desire to explore/experiment that's all well and good and nobody would hold ill will against you for that. Enjoy your music any way you see fit.

However, to proclaim your audio path is the correct one, and others are all bunk is simply wrong. Is that not why your on an audio forum to begin with ? To supposedly de-bunk these audio myths that don't subscribe to your own audio path ? I would think so.

[Deleted User] · June 2015

yes can we please get back to why Hi-res sounds better than vinyl!

tonyb · June 2015

rednedtugent wrote: »

yes can we please get back to why Hi-res sounds better than vinyl!

I much prefer the mating habits of frogs...thank you.

PSOVLSK · June 2015

tonyb wrote: »

If the sole purpose is to pass the signal from point A to point B, Home depot wire will do that.

Here's the point I was making in the thread that is now closed. BUT, I was told by the "cables don't matter" crowd that cables do matter, but only to a certain (price) point.

If cables make no difference then all of you saying otherwise, yet are using more than lamp cord are hypocrites. Plain and simple.

tonyb · June 2015

PSOVLSK wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

If the sole purpose is to pass the signal from point A to point B, Home depot wire will do that.

Here's the point I was making in the thread that is now closed. BUT, I was told by the "cables don't matter" crowd that cables do matter, but only to a certain (price) point.

If cables make no difference then all of you saying otherwise, yet are using more than lamp cord are hypocrites. Plain and simple.

As I stated before, the cables don't matter crowd usually follow their wallets. They have little to no experience with better cables nor a willingness to even try because their wallet is limited. Which, heaven knows....we all have our limits, but on the used markets some really good cables can be had for not a lot of coin if one wishes to experiment some. Even if you have no desire to experiment with cables, that's cool too, rock on....but don't poo-poo those who do.

Mantis version about the TRUTH about signal cables.

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