What makes a good dac or transport?

I'm still pondering a purchase of a cd player. Seen comments about players with good and even great dac's. I've also seen comments that lead me to believe that the transport mechanism is possibly just as important as the internal dac. If a unit is described as "uses twin Wolfson WM8740 DAC chips" what does this tell me? I've read enough to know Wolfson is a respected name, but is this particular chip one of their better ones? Is the dac in an Oppo 83 any better than the one in an Azur 740c since the Oppo is newer.I haver also read people saying they were not fans of upsampling and others say it makes a big difference..I'm so confused!
Yep, my name really is Bob.
Parasound HCA1500(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Oppo BDP93, Marantz UD7007, modded Polk SDA 2B.
Parasound HCA1500(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Oppo BDP93, Marantz UD7007, modded Polk SDA 2B.
Comments
Thierry Heeb is a founder of the Swiss firm Anagram Technologies. They develop and manufacture advanced high performance audio signal processing solutions found in numerous CD players and DACs. Heeb explains "Oversampling is an upsampling process where the ratio between output sampling frequency and input sampling frequency is an integer larger than 1. Upsampling is any kind of transformation providing an output sampling frequency that is higher than the input sampling frequency and not necessarily a ratio."
"The difference [between oversampling and upsampling] is, to my opinion, more related to the clocking and jitter problem as well as to the statistical distribution of errors or artifacts."
A real simple explanation is by upsampling or oversampling, you keep aliasing frequencies from entering the baseband and thereby distorting the sound. Filters become simpler with gentler slopes.
Most products we can afford to buy are built to a price point. As always, a well implemented design will sound better than one that is not. I've had DAC's with switchable upsampling that were system dependent to whether they sounded good or not. My Twisted Pear Buffalo III DAC with ESS Sabre DAC chips has switchable oversampling and it sounds better with it on than off. So when I hear someone say oversampling or upsampling sucks, I think they haven't listened to enough DAC's yet.
Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
Transport/Dac: L.K.S MH-DA004, Cayin Venus cd-100i, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkI,
Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
Speaker Cables: Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
Cerious Technologies Graphene Extreme
Interconnects: Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2, Gabriel Gold Reckoning
Power Cables by: Argento Organic Reference, Cullen Cables, 6sons Audio, Swiss Cables
Some folks think the ESS Sabre DAC's sound best with current output than voltage output. If current output, you need a good I/V stage to go back to voltage output.
Sorry, I went off on a tangent and didn't address your other question.
Any additional terms, like dual differential or dual mono? Dual mono means one DAC chip per channel. I have 8 channels in each of my DAC chips combined for each channel. One DAC chip per channel allows for the best possible SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio) and dynamic range with no timing shifts between channels that is possible with a shared DAC chip. Basically, imaging and channel separation are better. I won't say it's twice as good as the single chip DAC I first built (same power supplies and output board), but the sound quality was well worth the added expense.
Dual differential means running two identical DAC chips in opposite polarity then combined later to lower noise and distortion. IIRC the latest OPPO 105 has two DAC chips but one is for the headphone/stereo output, one for multichannel output.
Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
When it comes to cdp's, don't lose sleep over dac chips or make that a deciding factor. A well built unit will sound better overall than a cheap unit with the latest dac chip.
Consumer grade cdp's.....look at Marantz, Cambridge, Pioneer elite. Better....look at Musical fidelity, Cary, and a cast of hundreds more. Depends on what the budget is.
BTW....don't lose any sleep over the whole upsampling thing either as Rich previously explained. Too many variables goes into what makes it bad or good.
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
I think our budget will be in the sub $500 range, considering a Denon 3910 and a Cambridge 740c. As much as having sacd available is appealing to us it seems a dedicated cd player rather than a combo cd-dvd would probably be a better sounding unit and have a better transport????
Parasound HCA1500(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Oppo BDP93, Marantz UD7007, modded Polk SDA 2B.
Parasound HCA1500(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Oppo BDP93, Marantz UD7007, modded Polk SDA 2B.
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
Once you add a dac and additional cables, your at the price point anyway of a decent cdp. Whats left is the convenience factor that comes with streaming.....which btw is off the charts.
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
With giving away a family secret, what should I keep my eye out for.
I think I know some heavy hitters but...
Personally though, if I were to stick with a cdp, I'd hunt up a Cary 303, or a Musical fidelity.
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
I'll keep my eyes open. Back to the zeros and ones...
Price point is very possible. All depends on the goals and features of the design. Most DAC chips decode raw DSD (SACD) but to save cost they don't include it in the features. Most DAC's don't allow access to any or all the settings that may fine tune for the input source selected.
Just an example, this image from the HiFiDuino Intro site. These are the settings available (left column, FirFilter through Notch) in an ESS Sabre 9018 DAC chip. This is part of the software that allows me 100% control of all options available in my DAC. Some settings work better for DSD, some for SPDIF, some for I2S. The software has the ability to save specific best settings for each input so I don't have to mess with them.
The 3910 is a great player as is. It was also mildly and heavily modded, including tube output. I modded mine to export I2S (CD) and DSD (SACD) to my DAC. Some folks still bring hard media to music meets so I have the ability to play anything through my DAC.
Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
Nothing wrong with that Red, but in case you don't get your sack blown back by the Oppo...
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/cd-sacd-players-rega-planet-2000-cd-player-2014-11-29-digital-77632-orange-tx
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
Are we talking about physical media ripped to a computer? Doesn't the quality of the computer transport that was used to rip the physical media come into play?
When streaming is mentioned are we talking about wireless networking?
Man, things were so much simpler back in the days of reel to reel and "record players".
Parasound HCA1500(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Oppo BDP93, Marantz UD7007, modded Polk SDA 2B.
Been looking at 2 Denon 3910, price difference of $150 between them with the cheaper having some cosmetic blemishes that I can live with but would rather not and the other says "converted it from stock 5.1 to a dual mono stereo. "
Parasound HCA1500(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Oppo BDP93, Marantz UD7007, modded Polk SDA 2B.
The Cambridge 740C has gotten great press, and mentioned in the same breath being as good as $5k CDPs. I do not have it, but am very happy with Cambridge preamp and amps.
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
Main 2ch:
Polk LSi15 (DB840 upgrade), Parasound: P/LD-1100, HCA-1000A; Denon: DVD-2910, DRM-800A; Monster HTS3600-MKII, Grado SR-225i; Technics SL-J2, Parasound PPH-100.
HT:
Marantz SR7010, Polk: RTA11TL (RDO198-1, XO and Damping Upgrades), S4, CS250, PSW10 (DXi104 upgrade), Marantz UD5005, Pioneer PL-530, Panasonic TC-P42S60
Other stuff:
Denon: DRA-835R, AVR-888, DCD-660, DRM-700A, DRR-780; Polk: S8, Monitor 5A, 5B, TSi100, RM7; Pioneer: CT-6R; Onkyo CP-1046F; Ortofon OM5E, Marantz: PM5004, CD5004, CDR-615; Parasound C/PT-600, HCA-800ii, Sony CDP-650ESD, Technics SA 5070, B&W DM601
Parasound HCA1500(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Oppo BDP93, Marantz UD7007, modded Polk SDA 2B.
Cambridge makes solid products, the dacmagic is a good place to start getting your feet wet in computer music.
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
Bob:
I ran throught a LOT of DAC's in my setup: Internal DAC on Sunfire TGP-II, Meridian Explorer (DAC & Headphone amp), Audio GD NFB-5 (Headphone amp/dac and pre), and the FIRST TIME I play a DacMagic which my buddy brought over to play with, I decided THAT was the DAC for me.
I bought one and have been using it ever since. For me its one of the better DAC's under 500 you can find. Now I have the older just DacMagic, not the Plus or the 100 and I love it. I've seen them go from between 150 - 350, so if you can be patient I am sure you can snag one. Couple sites to checkout would be here, AudioGon, USAudioMart, eBay and Head-fi.org.
I paired mine with a BlackCat Veloce Coaxial cable and basically have the same setup Phil ( @pearsall001) had and I could'nt be happier. For now its the DAC that blows back my sack......
I'd give it a go as you can use the USB input (for your computer) the coaxial OR optical input (for a CD player with coaxial or some other transport) and be good. You can even play with the different inputs to see if you prefer one over the other.
Also as its got multiple inputs you can connect a LOT of diff devices to it to see how it sounds.
No, not if the rip is verified as a bit-accurate copy of the original.
5.1: HDMI Bitstream>Denon AVR-1910>polkaudio RTE55, CS350-LS, RT3, HSU STF-2, Visio M55-F0
Parasound HCA1500(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Oppo BDP93, Marantz UD7007, modded Polk SDA 2B.
Parasound HCA1500(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Oppo BDP93, Marantz UD7007, modded Polk SDA 2B.
Here's one for 250 bones, you'd be hard pressed to find a better dac for this price.
Depending on the dac, yes...a usb is that simple.
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
Streaming really appeals to me but initially I need to do it on the cheap as I want to get my TT back into the loop. So, if you can use a dongle with a PC why the need for something more elaborate/expensive? I guess I need an education in the digital world...which I am slowly getting here.
I an looking forward to this new audio adventure, haven't been this excited about my rig since I bought my 2B's years ago!
Parasound HCA1500(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Oppo BDP93, Marantz UD7007, modded Polk SDA 2B.
Why would you need a better cart....heavier platter, better arm ? Why not use the cheapest phono stage you can find ? Think any of that matters on the sound your TT will produce ?
You don't need to be too elaborate....but a dac at 250 bucks is hardly so.
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
Parasound HCA1500(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Oppo BDP93, Marantz UD7007, modded Polk SDA 2B.
Most wives are....electronically challenged, to put it in a PC way. The Sonos will make them happy to use it, seriously. After you start using one, there are ways to make it better as time goes on and your wallet allows.
You can use a USB plug and go directly into most any dac, if your computer is in the same room or your running a laptop....to answer your question.
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
Parasound HCA1500(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Oppo BDP93, Marantz UD7007, modded Polk SDA 2B.