What makes a good dac or transport?

muncybob

The Cambridge Dacmagic is high on my list for a dac purchase, not sure if the BT100 will work on others.

muncybob

tonyb wrote: »

Sonos would be the way to go for you.

Got model number/name or vendor for me?, it seems most of what I find are wireless speaker set ups.

msg

DSkip wrote: »

With that said, it took me a while to finally find a DAC that sounded better than just using the Pioneer as a CDP. Under $400, you can find some nice ones though, especially on the used market. Solid DAC's were hard to come by in that price range when I was shopping, but now you can get a fairly nice one for about $200 used.

Skip - which DACs do you recommend scouting for around this pricepoint?

tonyb

muncybob wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

Sonos would be the way to go for you.

Got model number/name or vendor for me?, it seems most of what I find are wireless speaker set ups.

ZP90 hunt them up used or go to the Sonos website.

I think the Cambridge BT100 only streams MP3.

msg

EndersShadow wrote: »

I ran throught a LOT of DAC's in my setup: Internal DAC on Sunfire TGP-II, Meridian Explorer (DAC & Headphone amp), Audio GD NFB-5 (Headphone amp/dac and pre), and the FIRST TIME I play a DacMagic which my buddy brought over to play with, I decided THAT was the DAC for me.

I bought one and have been using it ever since. For me its one of the better DAC's under 500 you can find. Now I have the older just DacMagic, not the Plus or the 100 and I love it. I've seen them go from between 150 - 350, so if you can be patient I am sure you can snag one. Couple sites to checkout would be here, AudioGon, USAudioMart, eBay and Head-fi.org.

I paired mine with a BlackCat Veloce Coaxial cable and basically have the same setup Phil ( @pearsall001‌) had and I could'nt be happier. For now its the DAC that blows back my sack......

I'd give it a go as you can use the USB input (for your computer) the coaxial OR optical input (for a CD player with coaxial or some other transport) and be good. You can even play with the different inputs to see if you prefer one over the other.

Also as its got multiple inputs you can connect a LOT of diff devices to it to see how it sounds.

great info - I do like to hear some others' experiences with gear. history and comparison helps weed through all the options a bit.

lol to blows back the sack. that never gets old!

muncybob wrote: »

Anybody have any experience with the Parasound Zdac? I ask since I have a Parasound amp for my 2 channel rig. One can be had for $299 new.

good question Bob, I've been curious about this myself. seems like a decent little unit. there was just one on Audiogon the other day for $235. I'm not really sure what the differences are between v1 and v2

muncybob wrote: »

Yet another question...to stream from my PC wireless network I need something between the PC and the DAC, but it's not something as simple as a USB dongle like on our TV?

Bob, yeah, unless you're going to connect the PC directly to the DAC, you'll need some way to get the music to the DAC. I thought this was what you were meaning by transport. So, yeah, Squeezebox, Sonos, etc. - these devices connect to your Wifi, and can pickup the library on your computer, and pass it to your DAC. Or, you could just use a laptop where all your gear is. stick it on top where you'd normally have a turntable and go USB direct to the DAC. Some of these wifi streaming devices even offer direct USB connectivity, so you could even load up an external hard drive with all your music, and connect it directly to the wifi streamer/player if you wanted to, instead of using wireless to your computer, but may defeat the purpose. or it may offer other benefits I'm not aware of. These devices also stream other services you may be interested in checking out, like Pandora, or Spotify, and internet radio.

I was just talking to another guy last week and I think he was, at one point, using his tv to do it. if you have a smart tv that supports network media streaming, and aren't already using the optical out on it, you could pass that to the DAC if it supports optical in. just another idea.

tonyb

Bad idea using a TV for any music in any form. Noise gents....TV's have the cheapest parts, noisiest parts for audio. I wouldn't even entertain the thought.

muncybob

Well, I'm about to pull the trigger on the DacMagic. Found one from an authorized dealer for under $250, open box item with 1 yr warranty. No vertical stand though. I want to make the right choice here between this dac and using the old Pioneer as a transport or ditching the Pioneer and getting a better cd/sacd player. The Pioneer does sacd and I believe I will get the full signal if the sacd played is only 2 channel but will I get all the music encoded on a 5.1 disc?
Man, the more I think about this stuff the more questions I have....sorry!

tonyb

No, you won't be able to do 5.1 with that dac. 2 channel....no problem.

muncybob

DSkip wrote: »

I'm going to be writing up a follow up to my recent streaming experiences because I finally got something I'm happy with at a price I really like. Spent the better part of the last two weeks fighting through it.

Looking forward to this as that will be my next step....well, after getting some better cables for the dac.

muncybob

tonyb wrote: »

muncybob wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

Sonos would be the way to go for you.

Got model number/name or vendor for me?, it seems most of what I find are wireless speaker set ups.

ZP90 hunt them up used or go to the Sonos website.

I think the Cambridge BT100 only streams MP3.

So to control this looks like I need a smartphone(don't have), trips to the computer in another room or a laptop...which I also do not have(on my lap of course)?

If so, for me it looks like a squeezebox touch would be a better idea?

muncybob

DSkip wrote: »

by using the Pioneer as a transport. Just hook up digital to the DAC to your pre, then a second analog output bypassing the DAC and going directly to the pre.

Yep, that's the plan for now...just waiting for that west coast store to open up so I can palce the order.

msg

tonyb wrote: »

I think the Cambridge BT100 only streams MP3.

I think, after reading a kb article from Cambridge, that the BT100 can be used to pass any audio from the Bluetooth source device. In the kb article, Cambridge is addressing the question of whether V1 Stream Magic 6 owners will get the new Spotify functionality coming with the firmware update for V2 SM6's. They say no, and then recommend the BT100 to owners of the first gen Stream Magic 6 as a method of providing Spotify, since the first gen Stream Magic is not getting any updates to be able to Spotify directly. This, to me, indicates that the BT100 can take any BT audio from the source device, since Spotify will only be running as an app on the source. here's a link to the kb article - http://bit.ly/1zykLq0
If planning to use the BT100 with a Cambridge product, I'd probably follow up with them directly with your plans to confirm functionality.

I think this works like any other Bluetooth receiver, only Cambridge says theirs won't be lacking the fidelity of other BT receivers, and according to the product info, it may be proprietary only to "supported Cambridge devices".

muncybob wrote: »

So to control this looks like I need a smartphone(don't have), trips to the computer in another room or a laptop...which I also do not have(on my lap of course)?

If so, for me it looks like a squeezebox touch would be a better idea?

Even with the Squeezebox Touch, you're probably still going to want a tablet or a smartphone to control it. you can do it manually, but it's easier with a tablet or smartphone and using an app like the free Logitech one or any number of third party apps available. some of them are better than the Logitech one.

You can do it with a laptop and the web app that you can use with the Logitech Media Server, but it seems a little clunky, imho

msg

I don't necessarily believe it either. I use a Bluetooth receiver for stuff, but it's not in a system/environment where the fidelity matters tremendously. It does sound pretty good to me, but I have noticed minor differences in volume and slight quality changes depending on the device used - an old iPhone works better than a newer Android tablet in my case. I've also used BT in other environments with the same source and it sounds horribly empty and tinny.

Theirs may be meant to be used in conjunction with their Stream Magic 6 product with its upsampling?

tonyb

You can buy any cheap tablet for 100 bucks and use it as a controller. Provided you have wi-fi. You do have a router, right ?

muncybob

yep, got wi-fi here. Placed the order for the DacMagic yesterday, he says pristine condition-1yr warranty-but no vertical stand...$250 delivered. I thought that was a decent deal, not sure if I'll miss the stand.

So next question(putting streaming on the back burner for now), which digital in do I use and what budget cable(s) are suggested?

EndersShadow

muncybob wrote: »

yep, got wi-fi here. Placed the order for the DacMagic yesterday, he says pristine condition-1yr warranty-but no vertical stand...$250 delivered. I thought that was a decent deal, not sure if I'll miss the stand.

So next question(putting streaming on the back burner for now), which digital in do I use and what budget cable(s) are suggested?

It's a decent price, the stand won't be missed.

What input... Try em all and see what you like.


Cables... Bluejeans, Signal Cable, DouglasConection, Audioquest...

tonyb

Use the digital coax connection, or USB. The Blackcat veloce digital coax cable is pretty darn good at around 140 bucks new and 80 bucks used.

muncybob

Tony, perhaps that will be a cable upgrade for us, for now I settled on Blue Jeans...got both coax and optical and some interconnects needed for the amp and pre. Looks like it all should arrive this coming week just in time for the new year.

I am sooo looking forward to this as last night we played some Eagles tunes from the studio releases box set and Desperado never sounded so good. Will be interesting to see what the new cables and dac bring to the table.

mantis

I'm gonna give you my opinion on what makes a DAC or Transport good.
it really comes down to only one thing and one thing alone and thats realism. I find so many things in our industry to claim to be great and bench test prove to be this and that , I say screw all that and fully trust your ears.
When you sit down to listen to a piece of music , does it capture you? Does it move you in ways only that piece of music can? When this happens fully you know your listening to a great system. When one makes you forget your Demoing a DAC or Transport and allows you get get involved emotionally. When your sitting there studying all the details and trying to figure out IF this is the one or not , it's not.

mantis

Just so you also know that Burr Brown is the Industry standard. Wolfson makes very nice sounding DAC"s that I feel Reveal Burr Brown on many levels and a lot of high end company like to build around their ability to replace the truth.
Sabre you could say is the newer kid on the block and I find them to be very hit or miss depending on who is driving the back end and how they are in ones system.

but in the end most of these chipsets do their jobs properly , most of the time what really makes one better then the others is the support crew around them. I don't believe any of them are designed to miss anything but can when not properly supported as said.

SCompRacer

ESS Sabre is more than the new kid. They brought an innovative, outside the old box thinking to their DAC chips. The ESS DAC chips have an astonishingly low THD+N specification, large dynamic range and they preserve an audio performance at any attenuation level with audio fidelity and transparency.

Properly configured they will play SPDIF better than the Burr Brown as they do not rely entirely on the embedded clock. Pipe I2S (clock and data separate) into a BB and the sound will improve quite a bit over SPDIF. The ESS Sabre sounds just a little better with I2S over SPDIF.

Yes, I'm an ESS fan but I've had plenty of BB DAC's to judge fairly.

SCompRacer

DSkip wrote: »

Rich, have you had a chance to hear the Chord Hugo, Auralic Vega, or any other DAC's at that level in your rig?

Skip, an Auralic Vega on my speakers with Van Alstine pre and amp at Salk HQ. Van Alstine gear is very good. It ain't flashy, but great SQ and reasonably priced.

I'd own a Vega if I hadn't built a dual mono ESS Sabre. Just some of the differences, I have discrete balanced output versus op amps. (My Single Ended and headphone out are op amp). Instead of four DAC's per channel in differential mode, I have all 8 DAC's in each chip devoted to each channel. Dual mono allows me the absolute highest dynamic range the chip allows, better channel separation and detail.

Twisted Pear has optimized power to their Buffalo III DAC board with three onboard linear regulators for powering the various sections of the ES9018 DAC chip. I have shunting power supplies for each DAC board and for each channel (5v and 15v+ 15v-). Just for those who might not know, shunting is where you crank a PS up about 50 to 100mA higher than the device needs. Lots of heat but the component experiences no waiting for voltage and current when needed.

I have multiple inputs; I2S, DSD, SPDIF and USB to fill my needs. My Denon can export I2S (CD) and raw DSD (SACD) to my DAC. I have remote control and access to all DAC chip settings to optimize each input.

This is prior to USB input and using one single I/V output board versus two. Two linear supplies power input boards and Arduino UNO controller/LCD display.



This is the code for the controller printed single sided. A smart guy wrote it and shared it; I just modified it as needed. A USB input at side of chassis allows for any programming changes.

[Deleted User]

Rich,

That is quite an answer. Any chance you could explain it simpler? Voltage or current regulated? I have been a fan of DIYAudio for some time now and have a garage sale degree in power supply and DAC design. Haha

with all respect, all the technical talk aside. How does it sound?

SCompRacer

The Twisted Pear power supplies I am using are adjustable for voltage and mA. I think the Placid HD BP (bi polar) will do up to 16 volts 350mA on the + and – rail. The Placid HD will do up to 6v+ 500mA. They are low noise with excellent line and load regulation.

It’s hard for me to comment on DAC’s without mentioning the engineering end. Skip down to "To answer your question” if you want to avoid it…lol

Digital is real complicated and one must really dig in if you really want to attempt a proper understanding of it. If you don’t, just listen and buy what works in your system, what you like. Try and avoid the suck word for what you don’t like as YMMV.

For instance, let’s say we have a poorly implemented DAC that allows ultrasonic images in the baseband audio frequencies out the analog output. Pre amps and amps may not be able to handle these ultrasonic artifacts and generate audible non-linear distortion. Manufacturers can’t predict what equipment will be used so they implement sharp digital filters followed by slow roll off analog filters with cutoffs far above the audio band at the expense of best sound quality. Type of filtering trickles down to how time domain responsive your speakers are. Once again, does all your gear get along and play well.

I believe digital will never be anything but a best approximation of what was recorded. I subscribe to the theory that the digital data on the CD is already irreparably time smeared. Over and upsampling with filtering is responsible for major improvements in sound quality.

The absolute truth is different DAC chips require different implementations to perform their best. For instance, the ESS Sabre can be implemented as voltage or current output. Current output is generally recognized as where the ESS Sabre shines. But you add complexity and cost with current output as you must use an I/V stage to convert current back to voltage output. This means you can’t put a voltage output only DAC chip into a current output configuration for an apples to apples comparison. The ESS Sabre in voltage output configuration may not sound as good as the chip that is optimized for voltage output.

My DAC is mostly all Twisted Pear parts. There are two I/V stages available from them. An IVY III which is high quality op amp based and the Legato 3.1 which has discrete balanced output with high quality op amp SE (RCA single ended) and headphone out. Some think the IVY III is like a sharpened pencil versus the Legato where the point is worn and leaves broader strokes, or mellower, more musical.

To answer your question, the sound quality of my DAC starts with a dead quiet background. It is highly dynamic and detailed, highly nuanced without harshness or glare. There is no added attenuation of certain frequencies, or digital flares. Bass is full and deep. Vocals are full and rounded. Sound stage is wide and deep. There is a texture. Note decay is amazing. Closest to analog as I have ever gotten, yet go figure my analog turntable sounds better.

Twisted Pear site. They have a forum there and in the manufacturers section at diyaudio.

http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/landing.aspx