Matching Subwoofer for LSiM 703 and LSiM704c

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ffiori
ffiori Posts: 7
edited October 2013 in Speakers
I recently purchased a pair of LSiM703's to be used as my front speakers (best bang for the size, I was limited on space) and matched them with the LSiM704c, per advise from Polk advisor. They sound amazing together, crisp clear highs and mids. And, not too bad on the bottom end either for bookshelf speakers, but they need a SUB.

I'm running a Pioneer SC-63 receiver and Polk ceiling mount speakers for rears.

So my question now if which sub?? The room is about 500-600 Sq/Feet, suspended ceiling and the floors are wood.

I was looking at the following subs, but can't find any locations to audition them, so I'm going to have to buy and try. Would like to get it right the first time if possible.

- DSW660 with 12" - Seems like it can do the trick. Price is not too bad, but it looks like the product may be EOL'd? Hard too find
- The DSW MicroPro Series 1000 with 8" - Not bad price point. I think this is the best bang for the buck, but I'm a little worried it may not be enough??
- The DSW MicroPro Series 3000 with 10" - Not cheap and I'm sure this is the best of the best, but I'm also worried it's overkill and not sure I need to spend this much for a SUB?? There's lots of other choices for this price point.

Any suggestions, before I just got shop and try?

Thanks in advance
Post edited by ffiori on
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  • drummer86
    drummer86 Posts: 441
    edited September 2013
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    HSUresearch.com. Give them a call, they'll tell you exactly what you need for that room. Great customer service.

    Unless you plan on putting a rug down, down-firing subs may not be the best choice for your room.

    Congrats on the new speakers and welcome to CP!
    Display: LG 47" LCD | AVR: Marantz SR5005 | BD: Panasonic BDT-210 | CD/SACD: Oppo 980 |
    Amps: Rotel RB-990bx | Marantz MA-500 | Speakers: Totem Mite : Totem Mite-C : RC60i | Sub: HSU VTF-2 MKIV

    HK AVR635 | Polk R30 | Sony DVD/SACD Player
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  • ken brydson
    ken brydson Posts: 8,649
    edited September 2013
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    Definitely check out SVS or HSU. I'm biased to SVS myself but you can't go wrong with either. Welcome to CP!!
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  • ffiori
    ffiori Posts: 7
    edited October 2013
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    Thanks. The system is in the basement, so it's a concrete slab with a wood floor on top. Only an area rug, so no carpet.

    Interesting that you'd all recommend staying away from a Polk Sub Woofer.

    Will take a look and listen of the SVS, dealer is just down the road and having a deal on SB12-NSD this month.
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  • ken brydson
    ken brydson Posts: 8,649
    edited October 2013
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    Polk subs are much improved from their earlier models but ID is a better bang for the buck IMO.
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  • pretzelfisch
    pretzelfisch Posts: 160
    edited October 2013
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    I have a rythmik F12 paired with my 703 in my office. And I have a rythmik lv12r for the home theater with 705 front 704 center. they pair great with each other. I also have the dsw 660 paired with some monitors, I would not pair it with the lsim. I would als say that if you are listening to music look at rythmic or svs, maybe power sound audio and get a sealed sub rather than ported.
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  • Tornado Red
    Tornado Red Posts: 939
    edited October 2013
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    I'm running a DSW660 and a DSW550, just got the 660 and integrated it into my set up. I have the SC-61, similar to your SC-63, 7.2 ready, though I only have Monitor 75Ts and 25c for the front 3. Also in a basement with laminate floor over concrete. I cut out some berber carpet I had the exact size for each sub, they were definitely too boomy firing into the laminate/concrete. I'm quite happy, but you will hear a lot of folks recommend subs outside of Polk. I got an exceptional price or may have looked around as well. Good luck sub hunting!
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  • pretzelfisch
    pretzelfisch Posts: 160
    edited October 2013
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    Tornado Red wrote: »
    I'm running a DSW660 and a DSW550, just got the 660 and integrated it into my set up. I have the SC-61, similar to your SC-63, 7.2 ready, though I only have Monitor 75Ts and 25c for the front 3. Also in a basement with laminate floor over concrete. I cut out some berber carpet I had the exact size for each sub, they were definitely too boomy firing into the laminate/concrete. I'm quite happy, but you will hear a lot of folks recommend subs outside of Polk. I got an exceptional price or may have looked around as well. Good luck sub hunting!
    I don't have much issue with DSW660 being boomy, and it's sitting in a bad position in front of the fireplace. I just find the rythmik more detailed and plays with more authority. They also have a lower tuning point.
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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited October 2013
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    ffiori wrote: »
    The room is about 500-600 Sq/Feet, suspended ceiling and the floors are wood.
    So your room is about 20'x25'? with a drop ceiling? IMO, I would go with at least a single 12" if you want the BOOM and air passing by your legs for movies. However, a single 10" might work if you don't want to wake the dead and listen to more music than movies. Also, I think two 8's might be able to cover a room better for less money. In some rooms two smaller/cheaper HSU or SVS subs might produce great results over a single larger/more money subs...but it depends on several factors...for some, 8's just don't do it...for others they work well. Can get two of the HSU based Outlaw Audio M8 subwoofers for $548 pair
    http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/m8.html

    Review
    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20042164-47.html

    For sub bass, it just depends on what you are after and how much you want to spend.
    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 1,225
    edited October 2013
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    If you want to wait, I believe they are on the verge of releasing an LSim woofer. I'll see if I can get more details if you are interested.
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  • B Run
    B Run Posts: 1,888
    edited October 2013
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    nap wrote: »
    If you want to wait, I believe they are on the verge of releasing an LSim woofer. I'll see if I can get more details if you are interested.

    Nice!
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  • ffiori
    ffiori Posts: 7
    edited October 2013
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    Please let us know more on the LSiM SUB. I went out today and picked up the SVS PB12-NSD and it's not enough by itself for my space. Limiter keeps kicking. Whether the SVS on of off, it makes little difference in the overall sound and I'm only using bookshelf speakers.

    I also underestimated my room size. More like 700 sq/ft of open space, but 500 sq/ft of screen to seating.

    Either way the SVS PB12-NSD doesn't seem to be enough alone to compensate for the lack of Tower Speakers. WLDock may have a good point with using 2 smaller subs instead. But, an LSiM sub might even be better. :)

    I'm still on the fence on whether or not to just go out and buy the DSW MicroPro 3000 as the specs for this thing look amazing. I know they are AMP specs, but still........ And yes I know there's a price difference, but lets say they are the same price, would you think the Polk DSW isn't a better and smaller SUB?

    SVS PB12-NSD
    Amp Specs: •STA-400D Sledge with 400 watts RMS continuous power (800 watts peak dynamic power)
    •High efficiency cool-running Class D switching topology
    •Detachable power cord with main power switch and fuse
    •RoHS compliant, lead-free construction and world-wide safety certifications
    •Auto-On / On switch with "green" standby mode
    •Stereo line-level RCA input/output connections
    •Fully adjustable low pass filter with Disable setting
    •Unfiltered (for daisy-chain) and 80 Hz HPF line level RCA outputs
    •Customized EQ and DSP limiter settings specifically for the PB12-NSD
    •Input impedance - 20 kΩ (unbalanced RCA)


    DSWmicroPRO 3000 - Amplifier Specs
    Power Requirements (voltage) 120V or 240V (selectable)
    220V Availability No
    Amplifier Type Subwoofer
    Continuous Power 1200 watts
    Dynamic Power 2400 watts
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  • leroyjr1
    leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
    edited October 2013
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    nap wrote: »
    If you want to wait, I believe they are on the verge of releasing an LSim woofer. I'll see if I can get more details if you are interested.

    Hope they've learned from the past subwoofers.
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  • leroyjr1
    leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
    edited October 2013
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    DSkip wrote: »
    If its an improvement of the micropro performance, they should be strong performers. I suspect they won't be cheap though and will likely price themselves out of a defined customer base, similar to what I feel they did with the towers. They haven't built any larger subs since they came out with the sr woofers, so I know they have great potential there having owned the sr10.

    They just can't compete with the ID company's
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  • ken brydson
    ken brydson Posts: 8,649
    edited October 2013
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    leroyjr1 wrote: »
    They just can't compete with the ID company's

    Agreed...
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  • B Run
    B Run Posts: 1,888
    edited October 2013
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    ffiori wrote: »
    I went out today and picked up the SVS PB12-NSD and it's not enough by itself for my space. Limiter keeps kicking. Whether the SVS on of off, it makes little difference in the overall sound and I'm only using bookshelf speakers.

    Hmm have you experimented with room placement and set it up properly with an SPL meter, something doesn't sound right to me?
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  • nhhiep
    nhhiep Posts: 877
    edited October 2013
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    it would be nice if Polk releases a Lsim Sub in the future. I wonder why they didn't. they released all necessary speakers to build a HT, yet failed to release one of the important (.1 part). or maybe they didn't believe that they could build one to go well with Lsim and rely on other brands to build better subs?

    honestly, if they built one, I already bought it together with my Lsim set.
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  • ffiori
    ffiori Posts: 7
    edited October 2013
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    I agree something seems wrong and I can't figure it out, but I will. This setup should be rocking the house and it's not.

    No I haven't done the meter, I just did the Receiver setup with MIC (MCACC). What I now need to deal with is the Receiver shutting itself off, I have a feeling I may have a flaky receiver. Need to contact Pioneer today.
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 1,225
    edited October 2013
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    ffiori wrote: »
    Please let us know more on the LSiM SUB. I went out today and picked up the SVS PB12-NSD and it's not enough by itself for my space. Limiter keeps kicking. Whether the SVS on of off, it makes little difference in the overall sound and I'm only using bookshelf speakers.

    I also underestimated my room size. More like 700 sq/ft of open space, but 500 sq/ft of screen to seating.

    Either way the SVS PB12-NSD doesn't seem to be enough alone to compensate for the lack of Tower Speakers. WLDock may have a good point with using 2 smaller subs instead. But, an LSiM sub might even be better. :)

    I'm still on the fence on whether or not to just go out and buy the DSW MicroPro 3000 as the specs for this thing look amazing. I know they are AMP specs, but still........ And yes I know there's a price difference, but lets say they are the same price, would you think the Polk DSW isn't a better and smaller SUB?

    SVS PB12-NSD
    Amp Specs: •STA-400D Sledge with 400 watts RMS continuous power (800 watts peak dynamic power)
    •High efficiency cool-running Class D switching topology
    •Detachable power cord with main power switch and fuse
    •RoHS compliant, lead-free construction and world-wide safety certifications
    •Auto-On / On switch with "green" standby mode
    •Stereo line-level RCA input/output connections
    •Fully adjustable low pass filter with Disable setting
    •Unfiltered (for daisy-chain) and 80 Hz HPF line level RCA outputs
    •Customized EQ and DSP limiter settings specifically for the PB12-NSD
    •Input impedance - 20 kΩ (unbalanced RCA)


    DSWmicroPRO 3000 - Amplifier Specs
    Power Requirements (voltage) 120V or 240V (selectable)
    220V Availability No
    Amplifier Type Subwoofer
    Continuous Power 1200 watts
    Dynamic Power 2400 watts


    Stay tuned and I'll see what I can find out.
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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited October 2013
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    ffiori wrote: »
    I also underestimated my room size. More like 700 sq/ft of open space, but 500 sq/ft of screen to seating.

    Either way the SVS PB12-NSD doesn't seem to be enough alone to compensate for the lack of Tower Speakers. WLDock may have a good point with using 2 smaller subs instead. But, an LSiM sub might even be better. :)

    I'm still on the fence on whether or not to just go out and buy the DSW MicroPro 3000 as the specs for this thing look amazing. I know they are AMP specs, but still........ And yes I know there's a price difference, but lets say they are the same price, would you think the Polk DSW isn't a better and smaller SUB?
    Your room is LARGE to say the least. Still, the SVS should be adding something. That sub plays pretty flat so you might be able to try a higher crossover point. I would GO ALL OUT with finding the right spot for it. Go get a radio shack meter and do the "floor crawl" until you find the right location. This will be useful if you ever go with two subs also. Anyway, here are some numbers on the two subs.
    CEA2010 Results - Audioholics PB12-NSD

    The results for CEA-2010 short term burst testing place the PB12-NSD in the middle range of all subwoofers tested to date with 105-110dB output between 31.5-125Hz. The strong 16-25Hz output pushes the PB12-NSD closer to the upper tier of subwoofers tested over that range. In room a useful 16Hz is possible and the recorded output of 103.2dB at 20Hz should mean strong headroom down to that range at least. The output was amplifier limited everywhere at 20Hz and above
    Sound & Vision - DSW MicroPro 3000

    Frequency response measured 34hz-450hz +/- 3db.
    CEA 2010 Low Bass = 118.5
    CEA 2010 Ultra Low Bass = either 100.9db or 103.3db.
    Bass output, subwoofer (CEA-2010 standard)

    Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 100.9 dB
    20 Hz: 85.1 dB
    25 Hz: 100.7 dB
    31.5 Hz: 106.3 dB

    Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 118.5 dB
    40 Hz: 118.8 dB
    50 Hz: 118.4 dB
    63 Hz: 118.2 dB



    Have you considered DIY subs? For $1100-$1300 you could put together one or two potent 15" or 18" subs...that is if you REALLY want to move some air!

    2 x Stereo Integrity HT 15" - $209 each / $418 shipped
    2 x DIY Sound Group 3 cu ft flat pack enclosure - $90 each / $180 + shipping
    2 x BASH 500 watt plate amp = $199 each / $398 + shipping
    + miscellaneous $
    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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  • ffiori
    ffiori Posts: 7
    edited October 2013
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    Thanks everyone for all the great information. After many hours of troubleshooting and phone calls I think I figured out my challenges.

    - I did raise the SVS Cross Over point to higher and that made a big difference. I also moved if off the wall. Spoke to the SVS guys and they basically told me the SUB is undersized for the room size, but should still be ok. They recommended moving it around. SO I may just go out and get a pair of SUBs, but now I have a wife problem! :)

    - As for the receiver shutting down. Looks like the culprit is the LSiM704c. It's causing the receiver to shut down at higher volumes, so will have to get that replaced.
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  • robert0507
    robert0507 Posts: 148
    edited October 2013
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    Hey about your receiver shutting down. My 703's would shut down my onkyo 3008. I had to add an amp to power them. They say that the lsim's are 8 ohms but I checked and they do dip to 4 ohms very often esp at higher volumes.
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  • ffiori
    ffiori Posts: 7
    edited October 2013
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    Robert I think that's the problem I'm having them dip to 6 ohms regularly and once the go to 4 ohms, my receiver shuts down. I just got my 704c replaced and having the same problem.

    This is starting to become a full time job. :) Good thing for Big Box stores and taking things back. Next time they should learn and have them on the floor so people can audition them right there and then. Even if it's a different environment.
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 1,225
    edited October 2013
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    About the only thing I can find out for sure is that the sub will be out next year. They have assured me that it will be a "real" sub and that was a direct quote. Guess they want to make sure they get it right. Will post more details when they become available. Cheers.
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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited October 2013
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    "A real sub" in the works....what a tough market to crack. Given that the 707's are the flagship tower......IMO, a potent and accurate 15Hz monster with some built-in DSP and a larger 13.5", 15" cone at a price/performance that will make potential $1000-$1500 sub buyers stop to take a listen.

    Would be interesting to see what they come up with....IMO, their older SR Series research seemed to counter the stuff the JL Audio was doing with their W6 line. I wonder if they had an Fathom/Gotham in their test lab at some point? LOL
    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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  • Mikey081057
    Mikey081057 Posts: 7,127
    edited October 2013
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    Good deal.. Authorized?


    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Polk-Audio-DSW-MicroPRO-1000-Subwoofer-Speaker-DSW1000-New-Authorized-Dealer-/161111789865?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item258302d129
    My New Year's resolution is 3840 × 2160

    Family Room| Marantz AV7704| Usher Dancer Mini - 2 DMD Mains |Usher Dancer Mini-x DMD's Surrounds | Usher BE-616 DMD Center | SVS Ultra Rear Surrounds | Parasound Halo A21 | Parsound Halo A52+ | MIT Shotgun S3's | Dual SVS SB 4000 Ultras | Oppo UDP 203 | Directv Genie HD DVR | Samsung 75" Q8 QLED | PSAudio Stellar GCD | Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ | Lumin U1 Mini | HP Elite Slice PC | ROON'd for life |

    ManCave: HT:Polk LSiM 706VR3 LSiM 703's LSiM 702's|| Marantz AV7002 AV PrePro Sunfire TGA-7401| Sony PS4 Pro| Sony PS4 Pro|SVS PB13 Ultra| Oppo UDP 203 | Music Hall MMF 5.3se TT w/ Soundsmith Carmen | Samsung 55" SUHD TV | Sony PS4

    Patio | Polk Atrium 8's | Yamaha R-N303BL |

    Office BlueSound Node| KEF LS50 | Peactree Nova 125SE |

    Bedroom | Focal 905's | Chromecast Audio |

    Garage | Polk Monitor 5B's

    Closet Yamaha M80 | 2 Polk MP3K subs| Yaqin MC100B with Shuguang Treasures KT 88's & CV181Z's | Tesla E83CC's | Marantz 2252B | Marantz 2385 |Polk SDA SRS 2.3 | LSiM 705's |
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  • hertz9753
    hertz9753 Posts: 310
    edited October 2013
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    http://www.ebay.com/itm/DSWmicroPRO-1000-BLACK-8-Powered-Subwoofer-Polk-Audio-/230976781504?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item35c749fcc0#ht_4905wt_1161

    The 1000 seems to small though. Mabe paired with the other sub it could work.
    AVR-Onkyo TX-NR808
    Front amp-Adcom GFA 555>Polk Audio LSi9's(Vr3 Castle Mods)
    Center amp-Adcom GFA 5400>Polk Audio LSi9 bi-wired(Vr3 Castle Mod)
    Surrounds-Polk Audio F/X500's<Onkyo TX-NR808
    Sub-Velodyne SPL-1000R
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  • Mikey081057
    Mikey081057 Posts: 7,127
    edited October 2013
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    I have an mp1000 with my lsim 703's and it fills the sub 50hz range quite nicely. I have vol set to 20, and it is just right
    My New Year's resolution is 3840 × 2160

    Family Room| Marantz AV7704| Usher Dancer Mini - 2 DMD Mains |Usher Dancer Mini-x DMD's Surrounds | Usher BE-616 DMD Center | SVS Ultra Rear Surrounds | Parasound Halo A21 | Parsound Halo A52+ | MIT Shotgun S3's | Dual SVS SB 4000 Ultras | Oppo UDP 203 | Directv Genie HD DVR | Samsung 75" Q8 QLED | PSAudio Stellar GCD | Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ | Lumin U1 Mini | HP Elite Slice PC | ROON'd for life |

    ManCave: HT:Polk LSiM 706VR3 LSiM 703's LSiM 702's|| Marantz AV7002 AV PrePro Sunfire TGA-7401| Sony PS4 Pro| Sony PS4 Pro|SVS PB13 Ultra| Oppo UDP 203 | Music Hall MMF 5.3se TT w/ Soundsmith Carmen | Samsung 55" SUHD TV | Sony PS4

    Patio | Polk Atrium 8's | Yamaha R-N303BL |

    Office BlueSound Node| KEF LS50 | Peactree Nova 125SE |

    Bedroom | Focal 905's | Chromecast Audio |

    Garage | Polk Monitor 5B's

    Closet Yamaha M80 | 2 Polk MP3K subs| Yaqin MC100B with Shuguang Treasures KT 88's & CV181Z's | Tesla E83CC's | Marantz 2252B | Marantz 2385 |Polk SDA SRS 2.3 | LSiM 705's |
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  • hertz9753
    hertz9753 Posts: 310
    edited October 2013
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    Mikey081057 wrote: »
    I have an mp1000 with my lsim 703's and it fills the sub 50hz range quite nicely. I have vol set to 20, and it is just right

    Iwas talking about the size of the op's room.
    AVR-Onkyo TX-NR808
    Front amp-Adcom GFA 555>Polk Audio LSi9's(Vr3 Castle Mods)
    Center amp-Adcom GFA 5400>Polk Audio LSi9 bi-wired(Vr3 Castle Mod)
    Surrounds-Polk Audio F/X500's<Onkyo TX-NR808
    Sub-Velodyne SPL-1000R
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  • Inspector 24
    Inspector 24 Posts: 1,308
    edited October 2013
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    Did not read this thread, but buy two VTF-15h's from HSU and call it a day. Out of your budget? Buy one then wonder why anybody actually buys two. :p
    Up
    LSi15 LSiC - RX-V3000

    Down
    LSiM707 - 706c - 702f/x - Dual HSU VTF-15H Mk2
    Parasound HCA-3500 - HCA-2003A - Marantz SR7005
    Sim2 D60 - Dragonfly 106" Panny 500

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  • ffiori
    ffiori Posts: 7
    edited October 2013
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    In case anyone cares or comes across this issue, thought I'd give you all a quick update on my LSiM and receiver power down.

    Summary: Using the LSiM 703 as Front Right and Left, the LSiM704 as center and Polk Ceiling mount for rears. I also have the SVS PB12-NSD Sub, which is tuning out better than I first experience once I fiddled with it. Lastly I'm trying to use the Pioneer SC-1227-K which is supposed to be the same as the Pioneer ELITE SC-63, but I don't believe them.

    Bottom line:
    The combination of Pioneer SC-1227-K and LSi703's works in Stereo mode using the 80 -100hz setting as crossover to max volume. Once you go to full surround with LSiM703 and 704 you have to make sure the receiver is set to 100-150hz or it will shut down around -7db. You can tweak the settings to get it a little louder and fool around with the simulated surround setting, but in the end over a short period of time, it will shut down.

    While this is a pain, once I set the Crossover on the receiver at 100hz and the crossover on the SVS around the same, the overall systems sounds great while it lasted. SVS placement was also key to get it to sounds great and compensate for lack of bass on the LSiM's I'm using.

    So tomorrow I go looking for a different receiver to hopefully drive the LSiM 703 / 704 properly, which I believe is my problem. Right now I'm thinking NAD or Anthem. But open to ideas.
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