New Surge Protector

245

Comments

  • cstmar01
    cstmar01 Posts: 4,424
    edited July 2011
    Well just an FYI I am still goin through a claim process on my apc unit I had that allowed my computer and laptop to get fried. That said I had it for 10 years and was the first time anything happened. And no I won't be buying surge ex.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,700
    edited July 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

    H9

    Now you know why he's on my IL.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited July 2011
    cstmar01 wrote: »
    Well just an FYI I am still goin through a claim process on my apc unit I had that allowed my computer and laptop to get fried. That said I had it for 10 years and was the first time anything happened. And no I won't be buying surge ex.

    Why's that? Are you going back to an APC unit again?
    Jake
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  • westom
    westom Posts: 45
    edited July 2011
    zingo wrote: »
    Why's that? Are you going back to an APC unit again?
    Destructive surges typically happen once every seven years. No surge existed for ten years. Then appliance damage during the only destructive surge. Why should anyone think that protector does anything when even the manufacturer does not claim that protection?

    Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product at even higher prices (obscene profits). Where is the Monster numeric spec that claims protection? If Monster is selling it, then suspect the worst of equivalent products.

    Well let?s assume a Monster or APC was doing protection. So how many simultaneously surge damaged clocks, dishwashers, dimmer switches, furnaces, and clock radios were replaced in that period? If a Monster did anything, then most or all of those unprotected appliances must have been damaged. Or did a plug-in protector get recommended because no surge existed?

    All appliances contain superior protection. Anything an APC, Monster or Tripplite might do is already done better inside appliances. Your concern is the rare transient (maybe once every seven years) that might overwhelm that protection. Only protector that would be effective connects to the only item that absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. But again, if that Monster (or equivalent) protector did protection, then you are reporting here manufacturer speciation?s that say what happens to hundreds of thousands of joules.

    For over 100 years, facilities that can not have damage have earthed one 'whole house' protector. Waste no money on protectors adjacent to electronics. Essential to protection is a protector that is within feet of the only item that absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Earth ground. And distant from electronics. Because telcos suffer maybe 100 surges with each storm, then their 'whole house' protector is located as close as possible to the earthing system. And up to 50 meters distant from electronics. That separation is important for protection.

    Well telcos must deal with 100 surges per storm. Homeowners are concerned with maybe one surge every seven years. Also why informed homeowners spend about $1 per appliance for the superior solution. Not $50 or $100 per appliance for a Monster or Tripplite that does not even claim protection. Where are those manufacturer specs that list protection from each type of surge?
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  • digitalvideo
    digitalvideo Posts: 983
    edited July 2011
    westom wrote: »
    For over 100 years, facilities that can not have damage have earthed one 'whole house' protector. Waste no money on protectors adjacent to electronics. Essential to protection is a protector that is within feet of the only item that absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Earth ground. And distant from electronics. Because telcos suffer maybe 100 surges with each storm, then their 'whole house' protector is located as close as possible to the earthing system. And up to 50 meters distant from electronics. That separation is important for protection.

    Is it best to install a 'Whole house' surge protector at the meter outside or at the breaker box bot best protection against surges?
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  • westom
    westom Posts: 45
    edited July 2011
    digitalvideo wrote: »
    Is it best to install a 'Whole house' surge protector at the meter outside or at the breaker box bot best protection against surges?
    Either solution works. Both are available. 'Best' is defined by the connection from each AC wire to earth ground. A best protector makes a shortest connection with no sharp wire bends, no earthing wire inside a metallic conduit, etc.

    Remember, a protector does not do protection. Protection is done by the only item that must always exist and that absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. How to make a protector better? Upgrade the single point earth ground to both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code. That means making a connection to earth even shorter (lower impedance).

    A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A best protector makes the shortest ('less than 10 foot') connection to upgraded earthing.
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  • Lietuvis91
    Lietuvis91 Posts: 909
    edited July 2011
    I just bought the belkin PF60, for $144 seemed like a good deal, it claims to be able to handle all of my components, so I'll give it a shot. Lifetime warranty... not too bad either. Reviews also seem to be really good, people notice an improvement in sound quality apprently. I needed something, so I figured I'd get this. I hope it's a good deal.

    http://www.buy.com/prod/belkin-pureav-pf60-home-theater-power-console-belkin-pureav-pf60-home/q/loc/101/207514357.html
    Living Room 7.1 HT Rig:

    M70 | CS2 | M60 | Atrium5 - Surr. | SUB - Emotiva ULTRA12 + Tara Labs sub cable | Pioneer Elite VSX-52 | Parasound HCAs 1000A | Sony BDP-S790 | Belkin PureAV PF60 | MIT Exp2 Wires

    Bedroom 5.0 HT Rig (Music/Movies/Gaming) :

    LSi9 | LsiC | Lsi/fx | Marantz SR7002 | NAD T955 | Sony BDP-S360 | Belkin PureAV PF30 | AQ Blue Racer II ICs & AQ Type 4 wires | PS3
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,421
    edited July 2011
    I have an APC H15 which is a great unit. I use it mostly because of the voltage regulation, since my voltage can swing from 117-127 volts, and for the convenience of having a central place to plug all my gear in. If a bad storm is in the area I alway unplug the unit. Nothing can protect from a direct lightening hit so it's better to be safe than sorry. Some of my gear would be hard to replace so them offering money to replace in the event the unit doesn't stop a surge doesn't really work for me.

    I always unplug in the event of a storm and sometimes if there is a storm forecast and I'm not going to be home, I also unplug. I unplug when I'm on vacation as well.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • westom
    westom Posts: 45
    edited July 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    I have an APC H15 which is a great unit. I use it mostly because of the voltage regulation, since my voltage can swing from 117-127 volts, and for the convenience of having a central place to plug all my gear in. If a bad storm is in the area I alway unplug the unit. Nothing can protect from a direct lightening hit so it's better to be safe than sorry.
    They created numerous myths. Then sold you obscenely profitable solutions for problems that never exist.

    Ideal voltages for all appliances is even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Any regulation done by the APC already exist and is done better inside electronics. What have you solved? A myth?

    Best place to plug all your gear in is a $4 or $7 power strip from Wal-Mart.

    How often is your town without phone service for four days after every thunderstorm? Your Telco?s CO suffers about 100 surges with each thunderstorm. Why do telcos have no $multi-million computer damage even from direct lighting strikes? Because telcos install what you could have installed for about $1 per protected appliance. So that all appliances are used during every thunderstorm without fear.

    Informed homeowners earth a 'whole house' protector so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. No damage even to the protector.

    Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector sold by more responsible companies is 50,000 amps. Why? Because effective protection means even the protector does not fail during a direct lightning strike. The superior solution also costs tens or 100 times less money. But is unknown to most only informed by advertising.

    Unplugging is an unreliable solution. How often did you unplug smoke detectors?

    The APC does not claim any hardware protection. APC invents mythical problems hoping you do not learn what all electronics already do. How often do your incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity? Never. Therefore voltage is more than sufficient without that APC.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,421
    edited July 2011
    westom wrote: »
    They created numerous myths. Then sold you obscenely profitable solutions for problems that never exist.

    Ideal voltages for all appliances is even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Any regulation done by the APC already exist and is done better inside electronics. What have you solved? A myth?

    Best place to plug all your gear in is a $4 or $7 power strip from Wal-Mart.

    How often is your town without phone service for four days after every thunderstorm? Your Telco?s CO suffers about 100 surges with each thunderstorm. Why do telcos have no $multi-million computer damage even from direct lighting strikes? Because telcos install what you could have installed for about $1 per protected appliance. So that all appliances are used during every thunderstorm without fear.

    Informed homeowners earth a 'whole house' protector so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. No damage even to the protector.

    Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector sold by more responsible companies is 50,000 amps. Why? Because effective protection means even the protector does not fail during a direct lightning strike. The superior solution also costs tens or 100 times less money. But is unknown to most only informed by advertising.

    Unplugging is an unreliable solution. How often did you unplug smoke detectors?

    The APC does not claim any hardware protection. APC invents mythical problems hoping you do not learn what all electronics already do. How often do your incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity? Never. Therefore voltage is more than sufficient without that APC.



    Sorry bud.........been in this hobby a LONG time, don't need your lecture about over priced solutions. Take your mythology statements elsewhere. Glad you have it figured out for your needs, wants, desires and you feel comfortable with your choices.

    I feel comfortable with my choices as well.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • westom
    westom Posts: 45
    edited July 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Sorry bud.........been in this hobby a LONG time, don't need your lecture about over priced solutions.
    Hobbyists tend to be easily deceived. An informed hobbyist first learns the numbers. heiney9 has replied with insult because he did not learn numbers. He did not know all electronics work perfectly fine even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. APC has him believing near zero voltage changes (117-127 VAC) are destructive. He did not even know what already exists inside all electronics.

    Ideal voltages for all electronics are 117-127 VAC. No problem. APC will sell a $150 solution to fix what is not broken. It is called a strawman. Same is its surge protection. How does its hundreds of joules make destructive surges (hundreds of thousands of joules) disappear? Subjective claims in sales brochures and advertising somehow becomes fact?
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,421
    edited July 2011
    If I had insulted you, you would know it. If anyone is insulting, it's you insinuating we are all stupid and uninformed. You are welcome to peddle whatever opinion you have, I don't agree with it. That neither makes me uniformed or deceived.

    Have a nice day

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 572
    edited July 2011
    What do you feed a horse like that??
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."

    More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping."
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,421
    edited July 2011
    CoolJazz wrote: »
    What do you feed a horse like that??

    Well, he was talking directly at me and I'm stating my POV, which I've done, so I'm done responding to him.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • westom
    westom Posts: 45
    edited July 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    If anyone is insulting, it's you insinuating we are all stupid and uninformed.
    Others will read the numbers to learn before posting. Need not post insults because APC sold them a strawman.

    You could have replied with spec numbers to give your recommendation some credibility. Demonstrates how many APC products get recommended only on hearsay, myths, and strawmen. That reality (not you) is the point.

    Best solution for the OP costs about $1 per protected appliance. Means protection even from direct lightning strikes. Is found in every facility that cannot have damage. Comes from more responsible companies including Siemens, Intermatic, ABB, General Electric, Square D, Leviton, Keison, and Cutler-Hammer. Is necessary even to protect those APC products.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,700
    edited July 2011
    H9 did not insult you.....geesh!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,806
    edited July 2011
    I agree that whole house protection is best, it protects everything. But unless you can install it yourself, it's going to cost more than $1 an appliance.

    APC makes great battery backups though, and I use several of them.
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  • codyc1ark
    codyc1ark Posts: 2,535
    edited July 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    If I had insulted you, you would know it.


    Best quote I've read here in weeks! Ha!
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  • westom
    westom Posts: 45
    edited July 2011
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    I agree that whole house protection is best, it protects everything. But unless you can install it yourself, it's going to cost more than $1 an appliance.
    Why are they sold even in Lowes and Home Depot? Because any informed homeowner can install it. Or spend $2 or $3 per protected appliance to have it installed professionally. Either way, it is the only effective solution. Plug-in protectors even have a history of creating house fires if not protected by a 'whole house' protector.

    Why is Monster also selling a similar product? Take a $4 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. It sells in a supermarket for $7. Or an equivalent Monster product sells for up to $150. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling similar products for even higher profits.

    Informed homeowners earth one 'whole house' protector because superior protection (for everything) costs less money. Because a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

    The UPS is only for battery backup; temporary and 'dirty' power so that data can be saved or time is not lost doing a restart.
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,806
    edited July 2011
    westom wrote: »
    The UPS is only for battery backup; temporary and 'dirty' power so that data can be saved or time is not lost doing a restart.

    Wow, thanks for explaining what a battery backup does.I had no idea, I just used them because they look cool. :rolleyes:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,421
    edited July 2011
    westom wrote: »
    The UPS is only for battery backup; temporary and 'dirty' power.

    Last time I checked, DC power was the cleanest available. But wait........I'm uninformed, must be the mythology, hearsay and strawmen.

    Carry on

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • djperez81
    djperez81 Posts: 388
    edited July 2011
    Wow guys really!!!:eek::confused:

    Cant we all just get along or agree to disagree!!!:smile:
    Music doesn't lie. If there is something to be changed in this world, then it can only happen through music.
    -Jimi Hendrix
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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited July 2011
    djperez81 wrote: »
    Wow guys really!!!:eek::confused:

    Cant we all just get along or agree to disagree!!!:smile:

    No kidding. Went digging through my closet. Here ya go:
    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122241

    Can post pics later.
    Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
    Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
    Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
    Backburner:Krell KAV-300i
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,692
    edited July 2011
    Got more Sig material from it though :wink:
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • digitalvideo
    digitalvideo Posts: 983
    edited July 2011
    djperez81 wrote: »
    Wow guys really!!!:eek::confused:

    Cant we all just get along or agree to disagree!!!:smile:

    Yes I agree...I'd like to apologize for my posts here and being baited to go off topic by two individuals when we're suppose to be helping someone find the proper surge protector for their needs.

    People over at avsforum.com and blu-ray.com like these the best...

    SurgeX, Brickwall, Furman. All of them are top notch.
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  • Lietuvis91
    Lietuvis91 Posts: 909
    edited July 2011
    There is NO room for "opinions" when it comes to technical discussion. You can agree to disagree on the best falvor of ice cream, but when it comes to technical stuff, you either know what you're talking about, or you shouldn't be voicing your useless "opinion"...

    I don't know who's right here, I only suggest that other forum members would take sides ONLY when you can add something technically supportive to the discussion. Otherwise your posts, just like someone's "opinion", are a waste of space.
    Living Room 7.1 HT Rig:

    M70 | CS2 | M60 | Atrium5 - Surr. | SUB - Emotiva ULTRA12 + Tara Labs sub cable | Pioneer Elite VSX-52 | Parasound HCAs 1000A | Sony BDP-S790 | Belkin PureAV PF60 | MIT Exp2 Wires

    Bedroom 5.0 HT Rig (Music/Movies/Gaming) :

    LSi9 | LsiC | Lsi/fx | Marantz SR7002 | NAD T955 | Sony BDP-S360 | Belkin PureAV PF30 | AQ Blue Racer II ICs & AQ Type 4 wires | PS3
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  • digitalvideo
    digitalvideo Posts: 983
    edited July 2011
    Lietuvis91 wrote: »
    There is NO room for "opinions" when it comes to technical discussion. You can agree to disagree on the best falvor of ice cream, but when it comes to technical stuff, you either know what you're talking about, or you shouldn't be voicing your useless "opinion"...

    I don't know who's right here, I only suggest that other forum members would take sides ONLY when you can add something technically supportive to the discussion. Otherwise your posts, just like someone's "opinion", are a waste of space.

    I agree... westom posted some factual information about proper surge protection and the fundamental purpose and importance of "Earth Ground" with regards to protecting one's Home and connected equipment and he was attacked by two people who aren't knowledgeable on the subject. westom has contributed to many websites and forums with his knowledge on surge suppression.
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 7,658
    edited July 2011
    Alright, everybody take a deep breath and calm down. Keep the discussion to a reasonable level and stop making personal attacks. If not, this thread will be closed and the people who caused it will be gone.
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  • Conradicles
    Conradicles Posts: 6,335
    edited July 2011
    Man I thought I was a nerd...
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited July 2011
    unc2701 wrote: »
    No kidding. Went digging through my closet. Here ya go:
    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122241

    Can post pics later.

    Pictures would be great. :smile:
    Jake
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This discussion has been closed.