New Surge Protector

westom

F1nut wrote: »

As you can see a whole house protector is not the end all that someone has made it out to be. It's quite clear that secondary protection should be used for even greater peace of mind, but that in the event of a direct hit all bets are off.

Yes. A plug-in protector can supplement protection. But only if a 'whole house' protector exists to even protect that plug-in (ie Tripplite) protector. Reading subjectively perverts reality. Let's put numbers to a plug-in protector. From the IEEE Green Book entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':
> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path
> which will, if well designed and constructed, not result in damage. Even this
> means is not positive, providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...
> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from
> one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...

Informed consumers install a 'whole house' protector for only 99.5% of the protection at about $1 per appliance. Then install plug-in protectors (ie a $100 Tripplite) for maybe an additional " 0.2% " protection. Why so much money for so little additional protection? Subjective claims pervert reality. That Tripplite is never part of an effective solution without 'whole house' protection. NIST made that point bluntly:
> The best surge protector in the world can be useless if grounding is not
> done properly.

That Tripplite does not have an dedicated earth ground, cannot earth energy, will not discuss earthing, will not discuss where surge energy dissipates, and meets the definition of "useless" when an earthed 'whole house' protector does not exist.

At best, a plug-in protector only does supplemental protection. For one type of surge. Mostly for surges that do not overwhelm superior protection inside all electronics. Why does that Tripplite not claim protection from all types of surges? Look at its price and profit margin. Tripplite needs a 'whole house' protector to protect it from a typically destructive surges.


The easily deceived 'know' that nothing can protect from lightning. Complete nonsense. Direct lightning strikes without damage occur routinely in most every town. How often is your town without phone service for four days while they replace that switching computer? Never? How can that be when a telco CO typically suffers 100 surges with each thunderstorm? So many surges without damage because direct lightning strikes are made irrelevant by earthed 'whole house' protectors.

Why do so many know nothing can protect from lightning. No experience. And facts distorted by the always required and missing numbers.

Misrepresenting a citation does not change that reality. Direct lightning strikes without damage is routine. Reading subjectively means one forgets examples of direct lightning strikes without damage all around them. Unlike the naysayers, this author has designed protection systems that harmlessly earthed direct lightning strikes. This author never wastes money on $100 profit centers such as the Tripplite.

Another professional says how direct lightning strikes are made irrelevant:
> Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning 30 years, that
> you can design a system that will handle *direct lightning strikes* on a routine
> basis. It takes some planning and careful layout, but it's not hard, nor is it overly
> expensive. At WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct lightning strikes nearly every
> time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime from such strikes is almost non-existant.
> The last time we went down from a strike, it was due to a strike on the power
> company's lines knocking *them* out, ...
> Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously to educate amateurs
> that you *can* avoid damage from direct strikes. The belief that there's no
> protection from direct strike damage is *myth*. ...
> The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly simple, and surprisingly
> less than obvious. Of course you *must* have a single point ground system that
> eliminates all ground loops. And you must present a low *impedance* path for the
> energy to go. That's most generally a low *inductance* path rather than just a
> low ohm DC path.

Normally I need not explain the obvious. Wires connected to appliances are, to lightning, no different than antennas connected to broadcasting equipment. Damage happens when lightning uses household appliances or broadcasting equipment as a connection to earth. Damage is when energy is permitted inside a building. Well proven protection for everything is similar. Damage is so easily averted as to be considered a human failure. If lightning does surge damage, a search for the human created mistake begins with an inspection of earth ground. The most critical component in all protection systems (and what Tripplite does not have and will not discuss) is earth ground.

Nobody said a 'whole house' protector is complete protection. That was a naysayer intentionally misrepresenting what was posted. A properly earthed 'whole house' protector means 99.5 to 99.9% of the protection. Since destructive surges occur typically once every seven years, that one solution, costing about $1 per protected appliance, is more than sufficient for most all homeowners.

Informed consumers do not $40 or $100 per appliance to protect the dishwasher, furnace, and smoke detectors. Informed consumers spend $1 per protected appliance for a 'whole house' protector from more responsible companies. Then the consumer has only 99.5 to 99.9% protection. Then consumers have what is always installed anywhere that direct lightning strikes cause no damage.

cstmar01

westom wrote: »

Why is this so hard to fathom? Go to the store. Only say, "Cutler-Hammer whole house protector." Then watch a salesman put you in front of it. How can that be any simpler? Why do so many so fear something so new?

Or ask your electric company for their 'whole house' protector. How hard is that? Only when something so new creates fear.

tonyb apparently has something so new as to also create fear. But that is a plug-in solution.

I have no problem with something new. What I have an issue with is that you were asked to provide a simple link to show it. If it's so easy to find in a store than it should be easily found on the internet. Instead you keep going on and on about the subject after the OP has stated he found what he wanted but according to you that was still wrong and keep beating to death the subject.

If you care so much about the issue I would recommend starting your own thread regarding the topic. If the OP is happy with what they found then so be it. The constant stream of the same thing get old fast.

TECHNOKID

cstmar01 wrote: »

...If you care so much about the issue I would recommend starting your own thread regarding the topic. If the OP is happy with what they found then so be it. The constant stream of the same thing get old fast.

+1!

I personally think it would be a lot more benificial if you started your own thread coming in with your knowledge in a clear concise matter and facts so people could potentially take the time to listen and evaluate ratter than popping out on the odd occasions over a couple years just to contradict existing threads regarding external protection. If you so feel so strong about the community being so wrong, please dare educate us on a dedicated thread (but please make sure you have full facts to back what you are talking about) maybe then and only then you could be taken seriously.

EndersShadow

So just something to note:

There is a show on a channel (not giving specifics for a reason) where a person comes in and fixes others mistakes. Normally the electrical contractor installs one of the "Whole Home Surge Protectors". The host always makes sure to point it out....but he normally ALSO says to keep your expensive things (like computers, HT gear, etc) on surge protectors IN ADDITION just to be safe.

Whole home surge protectors are good products, but I still plan on using surge protectors on all my HT gear. The whole home surge protector will just be in charge of the things I dont want to get surge protectors for, like the Washer/Dryer/Fridge and the other misc items.

westom

cstmar01 wrote: »

If it's so easy to find in a store than it should be easily found on the internet.

Listed were so many places to find one. GE.com, ABB.com, Intermatic.com, etc. Unfortunately protector URLs change frequently. Google is your friend.
Enter "cutler-hammer site:lowes.com".

You did not ask for a link. You said you were confused by a difficult term: "whole house protector". Provided was how to stop being so confused. Provided was exactly what you asked for.

Better informed consumers earth a 'whole house' protector so that even a $100 Tripplite has protection. So that destructive transients typically once per seven years cause no damage. Solutions so simple as to be sold for less than $50 even in Lowes and Home Depot. Informed consumers can learn how to avoid the OP's expensive mistake.

heiney9

TECHNOKID wrote: »

+1!

I personally think it would be a lot more benificial if you started your own thread.

GOD NO!! He's like a broken record that won't stop, he keeps repeating, I personally have heard enough from him, so don't encourage him to start another thread just to regurgitate the same crap, since it's the only contribution to this forum. Anyone who is interested has read his nonsensical posts enough.

H9

heiney9

EndersShadow wrote: »

So just something to note:

There is a show on a channel (not giving specifics for a reason) where a person comes in and fixes others mistakes. Normally the electrical contractor installs one of the "Whole Home Surge Protectors". The host always makes sure to point it out....but he normally ALSO says to keep your expensive things (like computers, HT gear, etc) on surge protectors IN ADDITION just to be safe.

Yep, was watching that show last night and he very cleary stated that.

H9

EndersShadow

heiney9 wrote: »

Yep, was watching that show last night and he very cleary stated that.

H9

Oh yeah, I forgot it was on Sunday nights lol.... best check my DVR to make sure it recorded lol....

westom

EndersShadow wrote: »

The whole home surge protector will just be in charge of the things I dont want to get surge protectors for, like the Washer/Dryer/Fridge and the other misc items.

Plug-in protectors have a history of making adjacent appliance damage easier if you do not earth a 'whole house' protector.

Without a 'whole house' protector, they also have a history of creating house fires as previous links demonstrated. Whitneyd88 on 21 Mar 2011 in "My house caught on fire and my tank busted" describes a protector fire that was fortunately extinguished when that fire causes his aquarium to break:
> A plug caught fire in my room (which was plugged into a surge protecter)
> it was caused by a power surge and caused my tank to burst.

One 'whole house' protector protects everything only if properly earthed. Also essential are inspections of the other incoming utility cables. To confirm that protection still exists or was properly installed. A plug-in protector will provide maybe another 0.2% of the protection. And will not even do that if those other utility cables are not properly earthed either directly (cable TV, satellite dish) or via an 'installed for free' protector (telephone).

heiney9

Where exactly do you get your numbers of 99.5-99.9% and now the 0.2%? I can spout off random numbers as well, it means nothing.

H9

EndersShadow

EndersShadow wrote: »

The whole home surge protector will just be in charge of the things I dont want to get surge protectors for, like the Washer/Dryer/Fridge and the other misc items.

Or to be more clear "The whole home surge protector will be responsible for protecting the items like the Washer/Dryer/Fridge that I dont want to get independent surge protector strips for"

cstmar01

westom wrote: »

Plug-in protectors have a history of making adjacent appliance damage easier if you do not earth a 'whole house' protector.

Without a 'whole house' protector, they also have a history of creating house fires as previous links demonstrated. Whitneyd88 on 21 Mar 2011 in "My house caught on fire and my tank busted" describes a protector fire that was fortunately extinguished when that fire causes his aquarium to break:
> A plug caught fire in my room (which was plugged into a surge protecter)
> it was caused by a power surge and caused my tank to burst. One 'whole house' protector protects everything only if properly earthed. Also essential are inspections of the other incoming utility cables. To confirm that protection still exists or was properly installed. A plug-in protector will provide maybe another 0.2% of the protection. And will not even do that if those other utility cables are not properly earthed either directly (cable TV, satellite dish) or via an 'installed for free' protector (telephone).

please please show me where on this forum this was. I searched and was not able to even find this person as a member here. IE you are copying and pasting info over and over again and its not even in referrence to something pertaining to this forum.

F1nut

westom wrote:

Nobody said a 'whole house' protector is complete protection. That was a naysayer intentionally misrepresenting what was posted.

Yes, you did.

westom wrote:

For over 100 years, facilities that can not have damage have earthed one 'whole house' protector. Waste no money on protectors adjacent to electronics.

It wasn't until I pointed out otherwise that you changed your tune. Additionally, I am far from a naysayer and I did not misrepresent a damn thing. The same cannot be said about you as your subjective postings pervert reality.

westom wrote:

You did not ask for a link.

You're right he didn't, but I did and you have yet to do so.

digitalvideo

Plug-in protectors are almost useless if they use mov's. Plenty of horror stories of mov's malfunctioning and having surges enter the electronics destroying them. People don't want to listen and learn until it's too late. Also, people seem to get extremely emotional and defensive if you criticize the APC/Monster/Panamax/Triplite mov based surge protectors for some reason like you're attacking their religious faith or something. They can't explain why they spend $5000 to $20,000 on a home theater and protect it with a $50 to $200 dollar surge protector that they have no idea where it's made and in what factory.

There is no difference between the technology in a $50 dollar floor strip surge protector and a $100 to $1000 dollar mov based surge protector. Take apart of floor stip model and a more expensive rack model and see te same mov design...

But one $100 to $500 dollar 'Whole House' Surge Protector can protect every electronic device in the house and that is more affordable than buying a bunch of plug-in surge protectors for every outlet you plug electronics into.

You also need to protect the coaxial cable coming into the house...a plug-in surge protector doesn't protect coax lines that go into cable boxes and connect to your tv. Surges do travel through the coax.

Here are some tips and instructions on how to protect your coaxial cable from surges...

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/knowing-when-to-use-a-coaxial-surge-protector

http://www.ehow.com/how_7638785_ground-coax-cable.html

Glowrdr

digitalvideo wrote: »

You also need to protect the coaxial cable coming into the house...a plug-in surge protector doesn't protect coax lines that go into cable boxes and connect to your tv. Surges do travel through the coax.

So I'm not claiming they protect it well (MOV types) - but there certainly are coax protected jacks on most surge protectors nowdays. Are you actually saying there isn't, or are you saying they won't do a damn thing?

If you're saying they won't do anything - then I might agree. But to state that there is no such thing is blatently incorrect.

Here is a quote directly from the link you provided:

Grounding an Indoor Coaxial Cable
1 - Plug the surge protector into an electrical outlet near your television.

2 - Connect the coaxial cable from the antenna, cable box or satellite dish to the coaxial input jack on the side of the surge protector.

3 - Run a second coaxial cable from the surge protector's coaxial output jack to the coaxial input jack on your television. Flip the power switch on the surge protector to "On" before turning on the television.

Either way - This thread has turned into a circus, and it really just needs to go away. Anything that gets out of the Pandora's Box can easily be blocked/ignored so I'm just going to walk away. Granted, I've learned about whole house protectors. But I've also been left with more questions than answers due to a bunch of random marketing hype and numbers. A normal person would have just stated "Hey - you should check out the whole house protectors at xyz.com. You could maybe save yourself some money if that works for you" rather than copying the whole damn Wiki site everytime someone questions the "facts" and telling us all we are wrong, uneducated and scared.

I'm gonna go change out of these pee pants, stand in the corner and think about some butterflies or something until it's safe to come out I guess.

evhudsons

I felt bad posting earlier as it just got a long rant following my posted comment, but since I've seen it continue, I just have to say: Westom, although some of what you are saying may be for good intent if you really want people to listen to you, stop bashing proven companies. No one gets where they are lying, cheating and scamming. I have become very familiar with bizarre grammar being used in online scams such as craigslist Nigeria scams etc, and your grammar is different from them, yet similar in the way you speak. It's strange, you are belligerent, patronizing, and ultimately insulting people you seem to want to convince of this Whole house thing. I couldn't figure out where this was all coming from and why, so I Googled the $1 per appliance comments you've made, and you have been very busy on a large number of forums saying the same thing with the same reactions from educated people. I value your enthusiasm, but I think the reason we have to enter random digits when entering sites is for people like yourself who may be just a computer with a screw loose.

Either way, all interesting stuff, I agree with others suggesting you start your own thread regarding the issue. I for one will look into the surge protection for the house, but for now am fine with my surge protectors I am using.

Any more posting here about the whole house protector will be simply looked upon as redundant.


I bow to the previous forum member posted pictures, completely hilarious and fully appropriate. Once I get my post count up, hopefully I can PM another forum member for some awesome rings for my CRS.

Zingo, thanks for this thread. I actually skimmed past the hot air and got some good information here that I can actually use. I am now looking into protection for my work server as well as home electronics. I have some electrician friends who may know more about this stuff. If I find out something interesting, I'll start a new thread.

[Deleted User]

Sorry, I just hate that photograph. No dead animals, depicted or not, please?

evhudsons

Oh, ok. I actually tried to go back and change it to another one that said the same thing but with a horse giving someone the evil eye, but I couldn't edit it.

I do apologize, was just trying to add some humor to the thread, it needed it. I am a full fledged member and contributor to SPCA, so please don't think anything awful there. It was a movie scene with a perfectly live horse, but again, I apologize.

The point of said picture was that the issue is no more, and to repeat it is senseless.

TECHNOKID

evhudsons wrote: »

...I couldn't figure out where this was all coming from and why, so I Googled the $1 per appliance comments you've made, and you have been very busy on a large number of forums saying the same thing with the same reactions from educated people....[...

ROTLMAO! Congrats evhudsons, nice finds!

Here a few examples;

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1882852

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1708902

http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9701967776/m/87119469801/p/2

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-1256149.html

westom (aka w_tom) is a well known internet nut on a religious crusade
to eliminate the scourge of plug-in suppressors. He is here because he
uses google groups to look for "surge".

http://www.adras.com/Surge-Protectors.t21970-88-3.html

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.video.satellite.dbs/browse_frm/thread/b4a956314eb29bcc/0b04d602fa6074d5?lnk=st&q=++intermatic+%22home+depot%22&rnum=6&pli=1

http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t494616-w_tom-we-is-that-50-whole-house-protector-link.html

Quick question westom AKA w_tom, how many years have you been targetting groups and on behalf of which company? The same cut and pace blah blah appears on multiple forums and over many years (yet traced you up to 2007). Don't see you discussiing-debating anything else but whole house protection (of course, always done coming as anti in Surge-Protectors discussions). :rolleyes:

I hope the next time you post in surge protectors discussion that CP bans you for SPAM!

evhudsons

There's some really great quotes on those forums in reaction to this guy.

heiney9

Can you say LUNATIC?

cstmar01

Can you say spam?

potee

After reading this whole damn thead all I can say is I'm glad that I bought my APC 10

DMara

It's hilarious seeing westom and digitalvideo showing up everywhere to advertise for SurgeX :biggrin:

F1nut

Time to flush the turds.

digitalvideo

Glowrdr wrote: »

Here is a quote directly from the link you provided:

Grounding an Indoor Coaxial Cable
1 - Plug the surge protector into an electrical outlet near your television.

2 - Connect the coaxial cable from the antenna, cable box or satellite dish to the coaxial input jack on the side of the surge protector.

3 - Run a second coaxial cable from the surge protector's coaxial output jack to the coaxial input jack on your television. Flip the power switch on the surge protector to "On" before turning on the television.

A coax cable should be protected and grounded outside at the service entrance as far away from the electronics as possible. The closer you ground a coax to the electronics the less effective it gets at protecting that surge but it can also degrade the PQ if you plug the coax into a downstream plug-in surge protector. Pretty much all surge protector companies will tell you this too as to where the most effective and best place to ground a coax at. The plug-in surge protectors that sell coaxial inputs on them is more a marketing scheme. A surge that travels through the coaxial's center line versus a surge traveling through the AC power line should be handled differently to protect against surges downstream. Advanced Series Mode surge protectors are suited to handle surges downstream at the circuit amp outlet where as mov surge protectors are best at the service entrance and breaker box.

The whole point is not about SurgeX, it's about the fundamental philosophy and technology of "Advanced Series Mode" and it's just the company that has the patent on it is SurgeX, but if APC or Panamax invented and used Advanced Series Mode I would recommend them but they only use mov's. So it's not about brand loyalty, it's about the technology inside.

westom

heiney9 wrote: »

Where exactly do you get your numbers of 99.5-99.9% and now the 0.2%?

Do you ever read what was posted? It explains why your every post is foul. Numbers are from an IEEE Standard called the Green Book. Go back and read what you intentionally disregarded. IEEE makes recommendations in Standards.

Informed consumers earth one 'whole house' protector to have 99.5+% protection. Plug-in miracle boxes maybe do another 0.2%. Can compromise superior protection already inside all appliances if located too close to those appliances (also published by the IEEE). Protection is only and always about where energy dissipates.

The NIST says bluntly that protectors without grounding (ie that Tripplite) are "useless". IEEE Red Book says what every effective protector must do:
> In actual practice, lightning protection is achieve by the process of interception of
> lightning produced surges, diverting them to ground, and by altering their
> associated wave shapes.

IEEE Emerald Book 'chimes' in:
> It is important to ensure that low-impedance grounding and bonding connections
> exist among the telephone and data equipment, the ac power system's electrical
> safety-grounding, and the building grounding electrode system. ...

What characterized Tripplite and APC products? No earthing. No discussion of earthing. No numbers that claim protection. Near zero (1125) joules will make hundrend of thousands of joule magically disappear. It violates what so many IEEE standards require. And a $100 price tag for something that also sells in grocery stores for $7. Of course, this will make heiney9, et al abusive. It says the naive were scammed by retail salesmen. Also explains every offensive post from heiney9 - who did same when his cable scam also was challenged.

He claimed single digit voltage variations are harmful. And that AC power output from a UPS is cleanest because it comes from a battery. Those claims are only rude.

digitalvideo is 100% correct when he says, "Also, people seem to get extremely emotional and defensive if you criticize the APC/Monster/Panamax/Triplite mov based surge protectors for some reason like you're attacking their religious faith or something." Anyone recommending those products is an ideal marketing target. Learning that they have been scammed causes defensive and cruel replies. Some just refuse to learn from their mistakes ? ie recommending a bogus Tripplite protector. 99.5% number obviously comes from an IEEE Standard. Anyone who knows anything about surge protection has learned same both from experience and from 100 years of well proven science.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Therefore best protection is a cable earthed before it enter the building. Best protection is located distant from electronics. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

heiney9

I use Trojan brand for protection

H9

westom

heiney9 wrote: »

I use Trojan brand for protection

One of the few highly recommended plug-in protectors.

BlueFox

Interesting. Now that cables have quieted down for the moment, the lunatic fringe has found another area to accuse people of being scammed by marketing into buying useless equipment. But in this case, there is a saviour piece of gear, which is the gear they recommend. :rolleyes: