Power Cable Question
Comments
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More Shunyata testimonials.
Memory Technology became aware of Shunyata Research products through Japanese Music Industry contact Maiko Nagae. After critical evaluations were performed, Memory Technology ordered Shunyata Research power-system products for use in their top testing and production systems.
Peter McGrath
Peter McGrath is widely recognized as one of the most accomplished recording engineers working in the world today, with a resume of recordings and top recording artists dating back some thirty years. Peter also manages the east coast sales division for premier US speaker manufacturer Wilson Audio.
Peter McGrath thoroughly tested Shunyata Research’s Hydra power products and found them to significantly enhance the resolution of his playback and recording test systems. Peter continues to use Shunyata’s Hydra products in both his home and with his recording work. He considers them indispensable to achieving the best sound possible
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New Jersey Philharmonic Orchestra
"To put this into context, I am a trustee of the Philharmonic Orchestra of New Jersey. I have played several instruments and now frequently listen to live jazz and classical instrumental and vocal performances. My goal in a stereo system is to reproduce the actual performance and its environment as closely as possible. I am a skeptic about power cords (and other wirey stuff) and I rely on my ears to tell me what is real.
So I plugged the Shunyata power cords (Taipans and Copperheads) into my system, put on a choral disk and sat back anticipating the effort that may be required to hear any subtle difference they might make. I was shocked with amazement. It took no more than listening to the first few bars of the opening chorus to hear the dramatic difference in sound quality these power cords allowed within my system. I tried another disk, same impact, then another, same impact... and they were not even broken in yet.
Here is what I heard: The most dramatic effect was an improvement in transduced acoustics. Previously I heard vocal or musical instruments that sounded excellent but were missing something relative to a live performance experience. Now I heard harmonic depth within and between voices and instruments that provide the richness and stage presence of a live performance. Now the individual voices and instruments interact with one another as in real life. Now I easily heard the small echoes, reverberations and other cues (some people call this inner detail) associated with a live performance space that were previously absent. The speed of dynamic changes in percussion instruments (attack) were also improved to better resemble a live performance.
All in all, the system now produces an audio hologram that much more closely approximates a live performance. Thanks for your recommendation of this excellent product."
-- Doug Munch, New Jersey Philharmonic Orchestra
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The Absolute Sound Magazine
Credited by readers and music enthusiasts world-wide as the definitive critical journal for high end audio, The Absolute Sound’s editorial vision is clear: select and commercially expose those products that they find in each category represents the “absolute” best in performance and closest to “live music”.
With over 60 years of high-end audio experience between them, and as published professional authors, Editors Robert Harley and Jonathan Valin write and speak with ultimate authority when it comes to defining products that represent the finest in their class.
It’s no surprise, that like their counterparts at Stereophile and SoundStage! magazines, Robert Harley and Jonathan Valin, use complete systems of Shunyata Research Power Distribution products as their long standing references. Shunyata Research products have earned multiple Editors' Choice and Product Of The Year Award accolades from this venerable high-end authority.
“The Shunyata products are the most effective AC products I have had in my system.”
-- Robert Harley, Editor-in-Chief: The Absolute Sound Magazine
“They’ve become indispensable parts of my listening system, without which nothing sounds the same or as good.”
-- Jonathan Valin, Editor: The Absolute Sound Magazine
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Stereophile Magazine
Recognized the world over as one of the most respected high-end audio authorities, Stereophile has a group of writers that represent a majority of the most experienced critics covering high-end audio products..
Editor John Atkinson, columnist Michael Fremer and writer Wes Phillips represent what people in the high-end industry would term ‘household names’ in audio journalism.
Renowned Columnist Michael Fremer discovered Shunyata Research products in 2002 and has been using them as his references for power distribution ever since. Given the sheer volume and variety of products that go through any writers’ system in a year, this is an accomplishment of almost unprecedented proportion.
Professional Stereophile writer and reviewer Wes Phillips also discovered Shunyata Research’s system of products in 2002, and has adopted them as his long running references for over five years, and countless reviews.
Due to the resounding success of Shunyata Research products with more than six current and former Stereophile writers, Shunyata Products earned multiple Accessory Of The Year Runner Up Awards, as well as the coveted Recommended Component listings.
“Fine layers of noise and haze vaporized with the Shunyata gear feeding my equipment!”
-- Paul Bolin: Contributing Editor: Stereophile Magazine
“The Hydra Model-8 is an amazing product!!”
-- Michael Fremer: Senior Contributing Editor: Stereophile Magazine
“Every power amp I plugged into a Hydra sounded noticeably better than when plugged directly into the wall -- wow!"
-- Wes Philips: Senior Contributing Editor: Stereophile Magazine
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SoundStage! Magazine
Long regarded as the most influential, experienced and respected high-end critical journal on the internet, SoundStage! magazine has evolved into one of the most credible and definitive review magazines in all of high-end audio -- world wide.
Editor-in-Chief Marc Mickelson, and Editor of SoundStage!’s "The World’s Best Audio System" journal, Jeff Fritz, own evaluation systems that in the world of high-end audio, are arguably without peer.
After many trials and comparisons, both Editors selected Shunyata Research’s entire system of products for use as their ongoing references. Among the host of awards bestowed upon Shunyata Research products from countless publications, Shunyata values its SoundStage! Reviewers' Choice and Innovation In Design Awards as much as any they have received.
“Caelin Gabriel has made another distinctive product that makes a strong case for being the standard in power conditioning here and now.
-- Marc Mickelson, Editor-in-Chief: SoundStage! Magazine
“The way my Shunyata powered system captured and reproduced the low-level resolution of my finest recordings was stunning!”
-- Jeff Fritz, Editor: SoundStage! Magazine
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http://www.shunyata.com/Content/endorsements-Prof.htmlLumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Wow...power cords...to big bad marketers....to environmental issues....the only thing missing is a straight jacket and a rubber room. LOL...DV,please wait up, my popcorn is empty.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
BlueFox that is an impressive list of happy people. But trust your ears first.
But I still don't understand why the ability of passing 150amps makes the PC better.
Would making a PC from welding wire 1/2" in diameter be even better? I don't think so but maybe I missing something.
If both PCs have the same AC voltage applied and one has higher amps then it must be made with a higher gauge wire and have a lower Z. That doesn't mean your amp will allow more pure undistored power (watts) to the speakers. The size of the transformer and filter capacitors determine that. -
BlueFox that is an impressive list of happy people. But trust your ears first.
I do trust my ears. I used to be a power cord skeptic, but after reading posts here about Pangea power cords I thought I would give them a try. I ordered 3 AC-14 cables for my SACD, DAC, and pre-amp. After installing, I immediately heard an improvement. And it was a big improvement.
I then upgraded them to AC-14SE, ordered another for my Wadia, and put the AC-14s in the HT.
Since my amps have 20 amp connectors I was not able to find cables with that connector, so I stayed with the stock cable. Last November, I was looking at a new Music Direct catalog, and they had Shunyata Venom cables with 20 amp connectors, so I ordered 2, and bingo, now the amps sound better.
Then as luck would have it, the absolute sound reviewed the Shunyata power conditioner, and their high-end cables. Being happy with the way the Venom cables worked, I ordered 2 Python CX power cables, and they work even better with the amp.
I cannot believe the improvements in sound I have obtained over the last year by upgrading all my inter-connects, speaker cables, and power cables.
So, while you guys are busy trying to convert the world, I am going to enjoy listening to a much improved stereo.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
digitalvideo wrote: »If you were knowledgable on the actual engineers who contributed to the research and studies that concluded with those results in my links you would know they (Bill Whitlock, Michael McCook, Jim Brown) laugh at your kind who think a $2000 dollar speaker cable or HDMI cable or power cable makes a difference in SQ and PQ. They're still waiting for anyone to come along and supply them with some power cords to test them out.
In fact contact Frank Frombach at SurgeX and he's another one who'd like for any of you to show him these results from these power cords and actual numbers.
Frank Frombach
SurgeX ProAV
Direct: 501-204-9527
Email: Frank Frombach
I know you're a SurgeX fan (or even one of their "engineers"
) and am so tired of you trumping those SurgeX products up all the time here. Oh, and guess what, maybe all of your SurgeX products aren't any better than a little Belkin sold in Best Buy, just like all power cables are equal If you are Frank Frombach, it's OK to post your info here, but please do not be so childish by posting phone numbers and full name of another person out in the open like this. Grow up, will you please?
Another thing: there are plenty of doctors and engineers out there, you never know who's the worst of their class or who's the valedictorian :biggrin:Gears shared to both living room & bedroom:
Integra DHC-80.3 / Oppo BDP-105 / DirecTV HR24 DVR /APC S15blk PC-UPS
Living room:
LSiM707's / LSiM706c / LSiM702 F/X's / dual JL Audio Fathom F113's / Parasound Halo A51 / Panasonic 65" TC-P65VT50
Bedroom:
Usher Dancer Mini 2 Diamond DMD's / Logitech SB Touch / W4S STP-SE / W4S DAC-2 / W4S ST-1000 / Samsung 52" LN52B750
Other rooms:
Audioengine AP4's / GLOW Audio Sub One / audio-gd NFB-3 DAC / Audioengine N22
audio-gd NFB-10.2 / Denon AH-D7000 -
I never said that the PC couldn't handle the amps for a few seconds, I just commented: How does this make it a better PC? I don't see the connection between max current capacity in a PC and improved audio performance. Just asking a question.
Where do you think an amplifier gets its power from....the air? No, an amplifier gets its power from the wall AC circuit. Do you think that the resistance and noise content in the cable might have some effect on the power sucked out of the wall? Do you think that a high resistance, high noise electrical path to the wall socket would affect the amplifier's ability to meet transient demands? Just asking a question.Maybe what you are saying is the PC materials can change the inductive and capacitive reactance in a PC to filter or reduce noise. That is certainly possible.
Nope. What I said was that there is more to understanding electrical engineering than Ohm's law and capacitance and inductance and that noise can be filtered in power cords by the winding geometry of the conductors and by the use of ferrite material. Even more than what I said, I also gave you a link to a peer-reviewed technical reference resource where more information on these concepts can be found. Why don't you read the papers I cited and then come back and discuss? There is now need for you to be disturbed by this when the theory is so well laid out in the peer-reviewed technical literature. As a scientist (physicist), I would think that would be the first place you would turn to for knowledge and clarification rather than an audio forum.
But s simple LC filter can do that for very short money in the electronic equipment. Why not improve the filtering capacity of the electronic equipment. The wires inside the equipment can also pick up noise.
Tweaks like power cords and power filters are meant for people who want to improve performance over what the manufacturer has provided. The realities of the market place dictate that a manufacturer trying to offer a product at a specific price point has to cut corners somewhere. Some audio enthusiasts do modify the internals of their equipment with better quality power supplies, better electrical components, better wiring and better circuit boards.I'm never sure if the noise you are trying to stop/filter is from the power company or RF or both. Because the RF/EM noise is very where, but it is measured in microvolts.
High performance power cords are designed to reduce both conducted noise coming from the power company and induced RF/EM noise from the environment.
I gave you a link to just one IEEE paper that discusses the benefits of ferrite cores on reducing EMI in power cords. If the level of EMI was insignificant, why would there be a need for ferrite shields on power cords? Why would there be hundreds of peer-reviewed electrical engineering journal papers on this topic?I understand twised pair wiring but I didn't know PCs used that geometry. Are you saying some PCs use twisted pair geometry?
Sure. The power cable companies say so too. PS Audio and Shunyata discuss their power cable geometries on their websites. I know you know how to look things up on the web.
It's hard to discuss this stuff with you while you state that AC goes in only one direction. If you didn't state this then I'm sorry I got that wrong. And I'm not saying YOU don't hear a difference either.
No need to apologize. I realize that your technical foundation is not very strong and that you have some difficulty understanding anything beyond Ohm's law. It's hard to discuss this stuff with you while you tenaciously hold on to the silly notion that everything in electrical engineering can be explained with Ohm's law and the simple rules governing capacitance and inductance.
I have provided some excellent references for further study if you desire.BlueFox that is an impressive list of happy people. But trust your ears first.
Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwww. That's odd. I thought you were a staunch objectivist who didn't believe in subjective testing? What brought about this change?If both PCs have the same AC voltage applied and one has higher amps then it must be made with a higher gauge wire and have a lower Z. That doesn't mean your amp will allow more pure undistored power (watts) to the speakers. The size of the transformer and filter capacitors determine that.
Ohm's law does not explain electrical noise, so perhaps that is why you struggle with the concept. The noise content of the power that is passed to the amplifier affects the quality of the signal passed to the speakers. The total noise performance of the amp is also a consideration. Most amplifiers filter the greatest portion of the noise coming from the AC circuit, but some noise gets by. To my knowledge, the only amp manufacturer who fully addressed this issue was PS Audio with their Classic 250 power amp. The Classic 250 had an AC regenerator stage prior to the power supply filter stage.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I cannot believe the improvements in sound I have obtained over the last year by upgrading all my inter-connects, speaker cables, and power cables.
What? You actually tried something for yourself?
Even if you had tried the power cords and they didn't work for you, that would have been valuable feedback for someone with equipment similar or the same as yours. As for the people who never experience anything but just argue about it..... Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I know you're a SurgeX fan (or even one of their "engineers") and am so tired of you trumping those SurgeX products up all the time here. Oh, and guess what, maybe all of your SurgeX products aren't any better than a little Belkin sold in Best Buy, just like all power cables are equal If you are Frank Frombach, it's OK to post your info here, but please do not be so childish by posting phone numbers and full name of another person out in the open like this. Grow up, will you please?
Another thing: there are plenty of doctors and engineers out there, you never know who's the worst of their class or who's the valedictorian :biggrin:
WELL YOU GOOO GIRL!! I guess you just told me didn't you? Now you shake those hips and snap those fingers sista! HAHA! Got any fries with that shake? :biggrin:
I'll plug SurgeX as much as I'd like, and what are you going to do about it? Throw your purse at me like the "Dark Knight Princess" did? That's a cute purse by the way, the pink coloring and sparkles go with your Paris Hilton collection. lol
When it comes to surge suppression or surge elimination or power conditioning I hope, I please hope you're not comparing that to cables? lol Oh boy!
I want you to do some home work. I want you to understand what MOV's are and what Series Mode is and what makes them different. Please educate yourself on a "Whole House Surge Protector" and a downstream plug-in surge suppressor is and why mov's are suppose to be used at the service entrance or breaker box and why they shouldn't be used downstream to plug electronics directly into. I bet you're part of the APC/Monster/Panamax/Tripp-lite crowd who spends thousands upon thousands of dollars on expensive electronics and then plugs them into one of those mov based products. lol SurgeX is made in the U.S. in North Carolina by the way and uses completely different technology to divert and eliminate surges compared to mov based devices :biggrin: -
Another good opportunity to run your shameless SurgeX ad, eh, dv Keep showing your classless acts here, I won't stop ya I'm pretty happy with my APC and my AV set's performance, that's why my money won't go to your SurgeX crap no matter what you say, so don't count on earning any commission from me :biggrin: Gears shared to both living room & bedroom:
Integra DHC-80.3 / Oppo BDP-105 / DirecTV HR24 DVR /APC S15blk PC-UPS
Living room:
LSiM707's / LSiM706c / LSiM702 F/X's / dual JL Audio Fathom F113's / Parasound Halo A51 / Panasonic 65" TC-P65VT50
Bedroom:
Usher Dancer Mini 2 Diamond DMD's / Logitech SB Touch / W4S STP-SE / W4S DAC-2 / W4S ST-1000 / Samsung 52" LN52B750
Other rooms:
Audioengine AP4's / GLOW Audio Sub One / audio-gd NFB-3 DAC / Audioengine N22
audio-gd NFB-10.2 / Denon AH-D7000 -
BlueFox, I first want to thank you for the entertainment you provided, I haven't been this entertained since the last Andrew Dice Clay comedy show I been to in 1992. Your naive immaturity to believing marketing hype is becoming legendary here and I wonder how many other website forums you entertain with claims of Mars dust and magical cords?
Now let's dissect your posts of marketing scams. You posted testimonials from Shunyata's website that consist of concert halls and musicans, I didn't even read more than one paragraph, I read a couple testimonials and stopped because I wasn't going to waste my time playing child's games with someone who believes in fairy tales and imaginary highs and lows you percieved from a magical cord which was made in the same Chinese factory as a .85 cent cord. I got a quick sense of what you were trying to pull (by the way you wasted your time searching for all that nonsense as I didn't even read 90% of it) and decided to use what other members on here like the "Dark Knight" said against you. lol
Now let me bring back what the "Dark Knight" said about that...DarqueKnight wrote:In the working environment of professional recording mixers and engineers, I agree that high performance power cords have little or no value. Conversely, most consumers would laugh if you told them that they needed to invest in millions of dollars of playback equipment because only a multi-million dollar playback system will be able to faithfully replay a recording made in a multi-million dollar studio.
You should understand that there is a big difference between the technical requirements of a professional recording studio or professional broadcast setup and a home stereophonic audio system.
In the cases of the professional recording and broadcast studio, they are using equipment which is immediately next to the source being recorded and they are using equipment that runs in the hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars. Such equipment has optimally shielded power supplies and is optimized to produce ultra pure output signals in order to minimize the effects of signal degradation when successive generation copies are made.
In the case of a well designed recording or broadcast studio, much care has already been taken to eliminate the noise caused by 60 Hz mains power and by environmental RFI and EMI sources, as well as eliminate noise from acoustic and mechanical vibration sources. Therefore, in these professional environments, a high performance power cord would be of little to no value since their purpose is to assist in shielding against environmental noise and filtering conducted power line noise.
The situation in professional recording and broadcast studios is analogous to using a Brita water filter at a municipal water plant that produces pure, good tasting water. At the water plant, there is nothing for the Brita filter to trap since it is being used at the very source of pure water. Now, when we go 25 miles away to a consumer's home, the Brita filter may be useful in filtering contaminants that were picked up during the 25 mile trip.
Ideally, rather than what anyone on a forum or in a recording studio says, you should trust your ears. Depending on your ears and the electrical noise characteristics of your mains power and audio equipment, you may or may not hear a benefit with a high performance power cord. I don't know of any brick and mortar or Internet retailer who won't take product back if it does not work for the consumer.
Again, a $1000 power cord would be of little to no value in these professional audio environments since, as you have pointed out, multiple millions of dollars have already been spent on high performance equipment that would not benefit from such cords. Likewise, it would be wasteful for a municipal water plant to install high performance water filtration devices on their office water fountains since they are already at the source of pure water.
If you asked a water company engineer if they think using commercial water filters on their office water fountains is a good idea, what do you think they would say?
Thank you the "Dark Knight Princess" (the fashion designer) for proving my point and basically making BlueFoxy look bad again, this is easier than I thought. lol (rolls around on floor laughing)
Now I posted testimonials from Mogami's official website of world renowned professional recording studios, Grammy Nominated mixers, musicians, engineers using Mogami cables which are a extremely affordable cable and actually quite cheap compared to many of the cables on here people are pushing so my source completely cancels out your source and puts to rest that spending large amounts of money on cables will benefit anyone. These world class musicians could have spent lots more on more expensive cables (which doesn't make them better performing) and not heard or seen a difference.
Your house isn't a concert hall or professional recording studio either as "Dark Knight Princess" said and whatever benefits might be seen or heard in a multi-million dollar project won't be seen or heard in your house or in any concert hall.
There is debate among audiophiles surrounding the impact that high-end cables have on audio systems with audibility of the changes central to the discussion. Bill Whitlock, president of Jensen Transformers, has written that "no other product is as shrouded in hype and mystery as the audio cable!"[1] Whitlock continues by saying that the high-end segment of the audio industry "abounds with misinformation, myth, and mysticism."[1] There are claims that, even among audiophiles, in a double-blind test it is impossible to distinguish extremely expensive, exotic speaker cables from ordinary lamp cords or budget 12AWG copper speaker wire.[2][3]
James Randi, a stage magician and scientific skeptic best known as a challenger of paranormal claims and pseudoscience, offered a prize of one million dollars to anyone who could prove his or her ability to distinguish an expensive high-end audio cable from an ordinary audio cable by means of a controlled listening test.[4][5] Michael Fremer of Stereophile magazine took the challenge, but satisfactory testing conditions could not be agreed upon, and the test did not take place.[6] In rigorous tests performed under controlled circumstances, listeners have not been able to prove there is any audible difference between high end and cheap cables.[7]
Mains power cables
Another controversial area of audio cabling is that of mains power cables. Products exist that claim to improve the sound or picture with a short length of expensive oxygen-free copper or silver cable connected from the wall socket to the equipment.[10] More scientific arguments have been presented, such as building RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) filters into the cables as well as shielding against EMI (Electro-Magnetic Interference) can produce a cleaner noise free supply and hence a better sound or picture quality.[11] Although subjective tests have occasionally confirmed this, little objective proof has been given.[12] One critique of high end power cable questions how a short strand of expensive cable can improve upon electricity delivered by miles of standard electricity transmission equipment outside and inside a home. Given this paradox, he then asks, "how short does the [specialized] wire have to be made before differences can no longer be heard?"[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interconnects
Audio Review Archive:
If there are orders of magnitude of idiocy in the cable debate, the one about power cords is in a class by itself. The power distribution network consists of thousands of miles of high voltage feeder cable, countless transformers, switchgear, millions of connected loads simultaneously, and always changing. Your little corner of the world consists of a transformer somewhere in your neighborhood hundreds of feet from your home, feeders coming into your house, your circuit breaker panel, wiring throughout your house, and dozens of feet of thin gauge wire in the primary of every transformer in your sound system. The arguement that a few feet of power cord carring anywhere from a few milliamps to a couple of amps delivered into a filtered power supply which is hopefully regulated and having an adequately sized transformer and filter capacitor could possibly matter is more than absurd, it's downright stupid. -
BlueFoxy, you're not a professional engineer, or mixer, or musician, you do not own a recording studio, a concert hall or anything remotely close to what Shunyata's customers are with what they need for their projects. Now what you are is just a regular average random run of the mill lower middle class guy like most of us who wants to feel "special" and feel "elite" and feel "exclusive" and feel like you're getting something that Puff Daddy and the other celebrities have in their home theaters on MTV Cribs which shows a clear sign of insecurity and sort of like a guy having a mid life crisis and needs to buy a sports car to make up for something, it's a mental defect that needs to be taken care of. Snake oil salesmen exist because of people like you and some of the other mid life crisis men here who want to feel "exclusive" so marketers prey on people like yourself as they order up another batch of cables made overseas by someone who makes .85 cents an hour who assembles the same cords that sell for hundreds and thousands of dollars. The fact you go to such extremes, literally to the ends of the earth trying to defend a cable just because you can't man up and just admit you're getting ripped off shows you have no integrity or honor and are like that brother who just wants to have the last word (I know you are but what am I?) type who rather keep digging yourself deeper and deeper instead of admitting you're wrong. You dug yourself so deep in this debate that you can't climb out so all you have left is to keep digging and digging. Just be a man, man up and admit you're wrong, it will make it easier on yourself and we might toss you a rope. (wink)
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How to influence friends and make enemies, eh? Or did I get that backwards?VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
Another good opportunity to run your shameless SurgeX ad, eh, dv Keep showing your classless acts here, I won't stop ya I'm pretty happy with my APC and my AV set's performance, that's why my money won't go to your SurgeX no matter what you say :biggrin:
HAHA! LOL! I'm glad that my plugs for SurgeX has made you defensive and turned you into this defiant rebellious teenager who wants to take a stand and show me that you won't quit, you won't give into the temptations of DigitalVideo and the SurgeX Evil Empire!! lol
By the way, the most important thing to protect all homes is not a plug-in device, it's a "Whole House Surge Protector" at the service entrance or breaker box, go buy one from Home Depot or Lowe's for $100 to $400 bucks. :cool:
Eaton Cutler-Hammer
Intermatic
GE
to name a few -
digitalvideo wrote: »HAHA! LOL! I'm glad that my plugs for SurgeX has made you defensive and turned you into this defiant rebellious teenager who wants to take a stand and show me that you won't quit, you won't give into the temptations of DigitalVideo and the SurgeX Evil Empire!! lol
By the way, the most important thing to protect all homes is not a plug-in device, it's a "Whole House Surge Protector" at the service entrance or breaker box, go buy one from Home Depot or Lowe's for $100 to $400 bucks. :cool:
Eaton Cutler-Hammer
Intermatic
GE
to name a few
Do your "Grammy nominated DJ's and mixing engineers" use these too?VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
inspiredsports wrote: »Do your "Grammy nominated DJ's and mixing engineers" use these too?
whoa! Check mate for inspired! -
I already know you're a SurgeX troll, dv, no need to try to divert the attention here You were so angry that you called any other who did not agree with you a girl. That's pretty classy, don't you agree? No matter what you are, a teenage idiot or a true engineer, your acts in this forum have shown your true face and did not help you build a SurgeX fanbase at CP at all. In fact, it actually destroyed whatever you tried to achieve here. You see, it's going to be hard for you to find a friend here Gears shared to both living room & bedroom:
Integra DHC-80.3 / Oppo BDP-105 / DirecTV HR24 DVR /APC S15blk PC-UPS
Living room:
LSiM707's / LSiM706c / LSiM702 F/X's / dual JL Audio Fathom F113's / Parasound Halo A51 / Panasonic 65" TC-P65VT50
Bedroom:
Usher Dancer Mini 2 Diamond DMD's / Logitech SB Touch / W4S STP-SE / W4S DAC-2 / W4S ST-1000 / Samsung 52" LN52B750
Other rooms:
Audioengine AP4's / GLOW Audio Sub One / audio-gd NFB-3 DAC / Audioengine N22
audio-gd NFB-10.2 / Denon AH-D7000 -
I already know you're a SurgeX troll, dv, no need to try to divert the attention here You were so angry that you called any other who did not agree with you a girl. That's pretty classy, don't you agree? No matter what you are, a teenage idiot or a true engineer, your acts in this forum have shown your true face and did not help you build a SurgeX fanbase at CP at all. In fact, it actually destroyed whatever you tried to achieve here. You see, it's going to be hard for you to find a friend here
Actually I had a couple people here PM me asking about SurgeX and turned them onto it and many others. Their sales are up by the way. :biggrin: -
I already know you're a SurgeX troll, dv, no need to try to divert the attention here You were so angry that you called any other who did not agree with you a girl. That's pretty classy, don't you agree? No matter what you are, a teenage idiot or a true engineer, your acts in this forum have shown your true face and did not help you build a SurgeX fanbase at CP at all. In fact, it actually destroyed whatever you tried to achieve here. You see, it's going to be hard for you to find a friend here
Truer words were never written, and he STILL has not made any effort to share what he has tried with his PS3 to aid the original poster.VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
This mystical fixation with cabling reminds me a little of someone who drives a 94 corolla trying to "improve" it by adding an aftermarket exhaust and low-profile tires. Why not just upgrade the car? Better speakers with bottom-grade cables are far superior to "mid-fi" speakers (what many of you are likely running) with the world's "best" interconnects.
Without singling anyone out, I doubt cables are ever a sensible upgrade path for your system. I also think upgrading a mediocre, mass-market crossover with boutique caps is also a poor upgrade path. My suggestion would be to invest in a superior loudspeaker. For example:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1064857
The design above uses the low-inductance, hand-made Acoustic Elegance woofer and a non-mass-market (cost-no-object) crossover. This is the sort of significant change to the overall transduction path that is required to improve an already good system, not cables. -
Funny. I also poked around their website after reading your posts. I guess some people are always interested in a dealdigitalvideo wrote: »Actually I had a couple people here PM me asking about SurgeX and turned them onto it and many others. Their sales are up by the way. :biggrin: -
I really just don't get the whole someone trying it and liking it, to then have an idiot like DV go and try to disprove it, by well proving nothing besides he's just a waste of space, and annoying.
Oh and good job calling out DK and making fun of his name, anyone call do that, I'll just call you idiot seeing that's what you are. -
OK the SurgeX thing and subsequent argument needs to take a ride to the sideline for now. This is going nowhere, the same ppl are involved and that ends up being ugly for everyone....know what I mean? Who cares. All possible information is and has been posted on the subject at this point.
Candy - This hobby has many levels and if Polk Audio sold branded cables, a discussion about why they sucked or didn't might make more sense. They don't and in order to keep things on an even keel, most cable debates get squashed. This forum has been here long before AVS and certainly didn't become enlightened because of it. It's a solid forum, with a varied and also well informed user base, just like this one.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
A system is a sum of parts used, not just speakers, not just amps,pre-amps. Cables are a part of that system and can offer improvements just like switching out pre's, cdp's. It may be more profound in some systems than others but it still matters. Lots of small speaker builders out there to custom make anything your heart desires and as deep as your pockets can go, no big news there, but we aren't talking speakers at the moment.
Your analogy could also go, why upgrade the car and put 13 inch fiberglass tires on it.
If cables are so mystical, what has the cable fairy dropped in your lap to try out ? We could argue all day about bits are bits, 1's and 0's, cable technology, B.S. or not, and so forth, but unless you have skin in the game,experience, then some opinions carry less weight than others.
Speaker upgrades can give you the best bang for your buck in improved SQ, that I can agree to. You still need to feed them the proper power with a good source and place them in a room properly to do their best.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
But the assumption that more "elegant" interconnects always translate into better sound is not some sort of given. In fact, its entirely possible that "shoddy" interconnects (speaker wire, for example) would give rise to better sound in some cases. Let me illustrate: imagine a loudspeaker designed by a team of Scan-Speak engineers over a period of 10 years, refined after numerous listening sessions by hundreds of audiophiles. Imagine this speaker was always auditioned using a 20 foot length of 14 gauge "company" speaker wire. Unless you use the equivalent 20 foot length of 14 gauge cable, your implementation of these amazing speakers will be inferior to the original design, because the crossover was designed with the (mainly resistive) load of the original non-boutique speaker wire.A system is a sum of parts used, not just speakers, not just amps,pre-amps. Cables are a part of that system and can offer improvements just like switching out pre's, cdp's. It may be more profound in some systems than others but it still matters. Lots of small speaker builders out there to custom make anything your heart desires and as deep as your pockets can go, no big news there, but we aren't talking speakers at the moment.
Your analogy could also go, why upgrade the car and put 13 inch fiberglass tires on it.
If cables are so mystical, what has the cable fairy dropped in your lap to try out ? We could argue all day about bits are bits, 1's and 0's, cable technology, B.S. or not, and so forth, but unless you have skin in the game,experience, then some opinions carry less weight than others.
Speaker upgrades can give you the best bang for your buck in improved SQ, that I can agree to. You still need to feed them the proper power with a good source and place them in a room properly to do their best. -
I didn't mean to sing the praises of AVS; I don't post there, that's just where I found a sensible link to the Bagby-Salk speaker.Candy - This hobby has many levels and if Polk Audio sold branded cables, a discussion about why they sucked or didn't might make more sense. They don't and in order to keep things on an even keel, most cable debates get squashed. This forum has been here long before AVS and certainly didn't become enlightened because of it. It's a solid forum, with a varied and also well informed user base, just like this one.
Over time I am getting to know what this forum offers and what it doesn't, who the resident gang members are, and so on. DV brought up the very good point of people with perhaps quite limited disposable income effectively throwing it away on audio esoterica. I think there are very inexpensive paths to great sound, and surely it can't hurt if that point-of-view is expressed once in a while, together with concrete suggestions and recommendations. For example, here is a spectacular "cheap" tweeter:
http://meniscusaudio.com/vifa-dq25sc16-p-876.html
Another example is the Zaph BAMTM:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html
In a recent speaker audition (which I have periodically at my home), all listeners picked these as clearly superior to Paradigm Studio/20. -
There's a ton of inexpensive ways to enjoy audio and the polar opposite. DUH? Lol. That describes every hobby in the world. I like to watch ppl make up their own minds, not so much change them aside from offer an opinion. Why is that so bad and isn't that exactly what you're offering? Yeah, so you read a couple threads from who & who that go against what you feel. Welcome to every hobby oriented forum on the net....we're doomed man and it is frustrating sometimes as a member and reader. Comment, make your point and move on.
That's the only way I mentally survive all the forums I joust about. If I was wrapped up and thought that my singular opinion was something new, never discovered in those places, I'd be crazy, literally and I just can't wrap my head around all those inane conversations. I don't agree with some of what I read but I usually find something else on the same forum that is equally engaging and of interest.
Sure, a wordy exchange is funny to get into now and then but while I may do that on my "home" forum, I never do it elsewhere. This just banter and in no way a big finger pointing exercise as I just happened to start reading at your post is all.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
This isn't a dig against Salk, but that "hand made woofer" doesn't have the best QC record and sometimes is on a long backorder. No thanks!http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1064857
The design above uses the low-inductance, hand-made Acoustic Elegance woofer and a non-mass-market (cost-no-object) crossover. This is the sort of significant change to the overall transduction path that is required to improve an already good system, not cables."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
This mystical fixation with cabling reminds me a little of someone who drives a 94 corolla trying to "improve" it by adding an aftermarket exhaust and low-profile tires.
The only people that I see with a mystical fixation on cables and the people who use them, are the people who have either:
1. Never tried a high(er) performance cable.
2. Tried a high(er) performance cable ONCE, didn't hear an improvement and concluded that anyone who says they did hear an improvement is delusional.Why not just upgrade the car?
Why not just upgrade the girlfriend, wife, house, etc? The grass is not always greener on the other side. Sometimes you get a little more in one area but lose a lot more in other areas. Sometimes you just like what you have and would rather improve that than go in another direction. This is particularly true of speakers.Better speakers with bottom-grade cables are far superior to "mid-fi" speakers (what many of you are likely running) with the world's "best" interconnects.
You can go to the system showcase to see exactly what many of us are running. You will find that we are using cables and other associated accessories that are appropriate to the electronics and speakers we are using.Without singling anyone out, I doubt cables are ever a sensible upgrade path for your system.
Two cable companies that I have had in depth technical discussions with are PS Audio and AudioQuest. They are quite adamant about recommending that a user match cables to the resolution capability of their system. The PS Audio forum has many examples of PS Audio CEO Paul McGowan discouraging someone from making a proposed cable upgrade because Paul thought it would not bring any improvements.I also think upgrading a mediocre, mass-market crossover with boutique caps is also a poor upgrade path. My suggestion would be to invest in a superior loudspeaker.
Some mass-market speakers have excellent designs that were implemented with mediocre crossover parts. In such cases, crossover parts upgrades can bring significant improvements, sometimes equal to that of investing in a "superior" loudspeaker. As I said before, the grass is not always greener....But the assumption that more "elegant" interconnects always translate into better sound is not some sort of given.
After you have been around here for a while, you will find that none of the members here who are actively involved in this hobby promote that idea.In fact, its entirely possible that "shoddy" interconnects (speaker wire, for example) would give rise to better sound in some cases.
Let me illustrate: imagine a loudspeaker designed by a team of Scan-Speak engineers over a period of 10 years, refined after numerous listening sessions by hundreds of audiophiles. Imagine this speaker was always auditioned using a 20 foot length of 14 gauge "company" speaker wire. Unless you use the equivalent 20 foot length of 14 gauge cable, your implementation of these amazing speakers will be inferior to the original design, because the crossover was designed with the (mainly resistive) load of the original non-boutique speaker wire.
This does not make sense. I can't imagine that any competent loudspeaker manufacturer wouldn't audition their speakers with a variety of amps, source components and cables. I can't imagine that any competent cable manufacturer wouldn't audition their products with a variety of electronics and source components. For example, AudioQuest straight out told me that they don't recommend some of their interconnect and speaker cables with Krell amps.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote:For example, AudioQuest straight out told me that they don't recommend some of their interconnect and speaker cables with Krell amps.
If AudioQuest really did say that then they deserve respect for being honest about that. That doesn't mean they should get a pass on their prices for their cables especially their "$2200 dollar HDMI cable". Any company that sells a HDMI cable that is 10 feet long for more than $30 bucks shouldn't be trusted with their speaker wire and interconnect claims. -
DK - Even our forum has had some of those observations, like AQ and PSA, advice and recommendations yet every year we get 3-4 people who think were just constantly trying to get members to spend. We also have honest reviews, parts makers/innovators for 20+ year old loves and a host of other positive attributes but it's always because of a stupid cable that it all comes to the usual, pointless....yawn. When I see another forum do what our membership does, for the product....THE ONLY product....I'll take a bow.
I see more ads and sales pitches elsewhere than I ever have on here....you know what I mean?
markCTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
