Adcom vs Parasound vs Emotiva vs Sunfire vs Outlaw?

digitalvideo · October 2009

I was told by Polk to use the FXi A6's for sides because of their bi-pole/di-pole option and the RTi A3's for rear.

My speakers are wired with Blue Jeans 5000ue, my sub wire is a Bluejeans LC1.

digitalvideo · October 2009

I'm pretty ignorant on the amp side and what pre's and pro's are and how I would go about utilizing those and which is best for my system.

cfrizz · October 2009

digitalvideo wrote: »

I'm pretty ignorant on the amp side and what pre's and pro's are and how I would go about utilizing those and which is best for my system.

This is a matching Sunfire Preamp/Processor. Your Sunfire amp is the brawn (power) & a Prepro is the brains (decoding signals & processing)

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1259440641&/Sunfire-Theater-Grand-IV-good-

Separates will always sound better than an all in 1 box receiver that trys to do all, but usually comes up short. Especially with the power the speakers need to operate to their full potential.

Your Sunfire amp takes care of that. Again unless you are simply looking for an excuse to spend more money, your Sunfire is delivering EVERYTHING your speakers need to operate to their full potential.

buymesome · October 2009

ben62670 wrote: »

Again John you are an idiot. Have you ever tested both side by side? If it was that disappointing that quick... I was warned nicely about my upgrade to sunfire. I didn't listen.
Again STFU John.
Ben

This such a rude response to a polite polkie

anhchungdoan · October 2009

The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I like the Sunfire for its tube like sound. I like the GFA 555 for its punch/ tight bass but not quite refined (raw) . I like the KAV250 for its detaild and airy and pack of tight bass as no other amps can do within my 20 something years of toying with mi-end and hi-end gear.

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

xcapri79 wrote: »

The affordable Emotiva XPA-5 and XPA-3 works well enough for me.

How would you describe the sound these produce? do they run hot/warm at all? Sometime's i have my system on for 8hrs ++

The xpa-5 is MIGHTY inviting

steveinaz · October 2009

I agree with Cathy and Doro; I think you're trying to talk yourself out of it. Just my opinion.

Toolfan66 · October 2009

buymesome wrote: »

This such a rude response to a polite polkie

And you are????:rolleyes:

Lowell_M · October 2009

xcapri79 wrote: »

Good points, Kex, but I think that the front RTi-A9's can benefit from a good external amp.

+1 Even my Rti70's benefit from an external amp over an AVR. Substantial difference over the H/K AVR 635 I was using.

thuffman03 · October 2009

anhchungdoan wrote: »

The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I like the Sunfire for its tube like sound. I like the GFA 555 for its punch/ tight bass but not quite refined (raw) . I like the KAV250 for its detaild and airy and pack of tight bass as no other amps can do within my 20 something years of toying with mi-end and hi-end gear.

Very well said.

I find the Sunfire to be very tube like and Adcom to be tight. I have not had the chance to hear the other amps listed but I do like both Carver and Adcom with the edge to Carver for the tube like sound. I find I like the sound made by tube gear.

IMO most will either like or dislike Carver/Sunfire. It really depends on what you like. There will never be one amp that will be the end all for everyone. I would suggest if you can to audition the amps in question for a few weeks if you can and then make up your mind. It is all up to what you like.

Lowell_M · October 2009

thuffman03 wrote: »

Very well said.

IMO most will either like or dislike Carver/Sunfire. It really depends on what you like. There will never be one amp that will be the end all for everyone. I would suggest if you can to audition the amps in question for a few weeks if you can and then make up your mind. It is all up to what you like.

+1.... but I like ADCOM better, and REALLY dislike Emotiva despite a lot of the positive reviews here. it's always best to get your ears on it and see what they tell you rather than listening to any of us. :cool:

heiney9 · October 2009

Emo is an entry level amp. Compared to many other entry level amps they come up short, IMO. They are good for HT. Anyone who wants to know why I don't care for Emo can do a search as I've done a couple write-ups from a recent comparison.

H9

anhchungdoan · October 2009

Lowell_M wrote: »

+1.... but I like ADCOM better, and REALLY dislike Emotiva despite a lot of the positive reviews here. it's always best to get your ears on it and see what they tell you rather than listening to any of us. :cool:

I would like to add that back in the CarverTFM series, audiophile tends to look down on the Carver amps for being high distortion and no "headroom". Carver's amps are always being look down as a bottom of the food chain products of mid-fi gear, a step above the receivers. Adcom' era was in the 80's . Stereophile loved them but after it was sold to another owner ( forget the name), it customer service was so bad and and the products were unreliable, Adcom's fanboy sway away to other brands. Currently, I have no idea if Adcom make a come bacl or not. Sunfire is another animal but limited to a group of people who like the tube sound but do not want the hassel of tube. I own the SC05 myself for H/t application only. I have to say after so many years refusing to own a receiver ( being a young and foolishly snob ) , the receivers I have hard so far such as PIO Elite, Onkyo, Denon have changed a lot. The gap between the hi-end and the low-end is no longer a mile apart but it is only by a thin line providing one owns a high-effiency speakers. By adding a one-step- above- the low-end- receiver amplications, one will get more powers, more dynamic but as far as the quality of sound , the improvement will be there but I doubt it won't be as day and night. The pre-amp section will remain the same with no improvement.

anhchungdoan · October 2009

Kex wrote: »

Well, that's certainly what you might expect, but who knows what the OP is hearing? It is frequently taken for granted that aboslutely everyone will notice an earth-shattering difference when adding an external amplifier to any receiver, even the Elite series (with ICE amplification built in) but that may not always be the case, depending on many factors (speakers in use, room size, preferred actual listening levels, ...). I would normally expect the question to arise more in the case of anything like the RTi A5, or smaller, not the RTi A9, however.

Often, when users express disappointment in these larger speakers, it is because they are not getting the bass improvement they expected, and the reality does not live up to the "night & day" hype posted by some users. It can be hard to identify clearly why they are disappointed, but the OP has spent a significant sum of money in his attempt to get it right, and yet, something seems to be inadequate. Maybe he does not feel he is getting enough bang (or "boom!", or "thump!, or "kapowww!") for his buck. I have not tried the Elite receivers or the RTi A9 (or equivalent), so I won't venture to comment further, but I would like digitalvideo to clarify if he just wants an upgrade, just wants a cheaper amp (since this one isn't all that great, in his opinion), just wants more bass ... or what!

If he wants an upgrade from what he has right now, I am sorry to say there is no "cheap way" . If you can swing for the Krell, Sound and spearit has the low-end Krell Showcase amps on sell for 1/2 price couple weeks ago. Other than that, it is just a side step move. I cannot even crank my SC05 pass -10 on the volume dial in my 16X20 room. Did he buy the gear new or used as far as defective ? For H/T application, the sub actually does all the KABOOM and he has a nice SVS. I like entertaining the idea that he likes "bright in the face sound" as opposed to the mellow and refined sound of the Sunfire. A lot of people who believe louder and bright is better, it could be a case here.

cfrizz · October 2009

digitalvideo wrote: »

What's the best overall amp on the market for best bang for the buck for HT? I have a 7.1 surround sound system that I use primarily for tv/sports, movies/dvd/bluray. I'm currently driving my Polk's with a Pioneer Elite SC-05 reciever and Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature 400 7.1. I am reading more and more on this forum and on other website forums that the Sunfire amps don't give as much punch and clarity as other amps and should I sell my Sunfire for any one of the amps above to get a better sound for HT? I'm into realism, clarity, accuracy in sound detail when I watch tv-football, baseball, hockey and movies/dvd/bluray and to encompass myself and the room in the sound like I am in the movie and inside a sports stadium.

Kex, at NO point has DV said that he is unhappy with his system. He is simply reading about some people who don't like Sunfire **** about them & starting to think he might be missing something.

Everyone hears differently. But if he is happy with what he has now, then there is no need to go looking for problems that most likely don't exist just because of a few peoples complaints who aren't hearing HIS system suggesting to him that he should sell his amp.

I think it is the height of rudeness to suggest that someone sell their gear just because others have some sort of an ax to grind, or haven't even bothered to really have enough time or experience with the gear they are putting down to truly make that recommendation.

anhchungdoan · October 2009

cfrizz wrote: »

Kex, at NO point has DV said that he is unhappy with his system. He is simply reading about some people who don't like Sunfire **** about them & starting to think he might be missing something.

Everyone hears differently. But if he is happy with what he has now, then there is no need to go looking for problems that most likely don't exist just because of a few peoples complaints who aren't hearing HIS system suggesting to him that he should sell his amp.

I think it is the height of rudeness to suggest that someone sell their gear just because others have some sort of an ax to grind, or haven't even bothered to really have enough time or experience with the gear they are putting down to truly make that recommendation.

Good point. It's an old and immature game of "mine is better than yours". Often, we hear saying like " This amp will kick butt that amp", " This will blow your sock off" ...That' all BS stuff for oneself validation. The Op's system as fine as it is right now, I would spend the extra money on room acoustic treament, add another SVS sub then kick back and enjoy . If you want try another amp, Emo has 30 return policy but he will has cough up returned shipping and that's no cheap either. Do not dump what you have untill you definitely know that the replacement is better than what you have all around. I have not seen a perfect amp or pre-amp or a perfect set of speakers in my entire life be it Krell, Audio Research, Bryston, or Martin Logan, B & w, Sonus, Jm labs.... Hell at almost retirement age, I have not find one if some one know aperfect system please let me know.

nooshinjohn · October 2009

anhchungdoan wrote: »

Hell at almost retirement age, I have not find one if some one know aperfect system please let me know.

The best system is the one that provides the greatest amount of pleasure for the money spent to attain it. When I was a kid, my Hitachi boombox and a Technics linear tracking table was the ****, an I loved every second of listening to it. Today that old stuff will probably still sound better than a Bose wave radio, but my ears have changed as have my listening tastes. There is no one system that is perfect, only one that is perfect for you.;)

cfrizz · October 2009

Nice reasonable posts Ahn! Welcome to Club Polk.

digitalvideo · October 2009

I'm asking this because I haven't heard any home theaters other than mine, I don't know anyone in my area who spends a lot of money on HT. Most people buy a $1000-$2500 big flatscreen tv and think they have a HT and that's it and they're not too into it like we are. My HT is the only 7.1 HT I ever experienced so I haven't been able to make any proper comparisons between other people's speakers, recievers, amps, subs etc.

I'm more wondering the difference in sound, quality in sound between the Sunfire and Adcom and other amps and what would I expect if I were to ever switch over to another amp.

But also, I'm learning about which speakers to drive with the reciever, because as of right now all my speakers are driven with the reciever too.

digitalvideo · October 2009

It could be as simple of bi-amping it or letting the reciever drive only the fronts or sides.

cfrizz · October 2009

An amplifiers job is to amplify the sound. As long as it has enough power to give the speakers as much power as they need whenever they need it, the amp is doing its job.

I originally had a 50wpc Rotel amp driving my RTA-8T's. Then I got a 110wpc receiver. I couldn't hear a difference between the sound of the amp driving the speakers and the receiver driving the speakers.

I heard a clear and distinct improvement in the sound when I added a Parasound 205wpc amp to the receiver. It trumped both the receivers power & the Rotel amp power.

I heard a clear improvment when I added a 200wpc Outlaw monoblock for my center channel. Then I finally got the Sunfire 405wpc amp for all of my speakers. There was no improvement to my front stage, but my rear speakers finally sounded as good as my front speakers.

What I learned from this, is even though I added an additional 200watts over the Parasound & Outlaw amps, the sound couldn't be improved upon because my speakers were already getting everything they needed to operate to their full potential. (I had hit the limitation of my speakers not the amp.

Now if I were to get some LSI's or other 4ohms speakers, my amp would have to work much harder, and it would take more volume to achieve the kind of volume I acheive now, but I wouldn't have to worry since I know that the amp has what it needs to give to the speakers.

Bi-amping is useless since if you use the receiver it is still coming from the one amp in the receiver. And it doesn't make sense to do it with your Sunfire since it already has more than enough power to drive your speakers without all the extra wiring needed to bi-amp.

I really don't understand why you are so fretful about this. You have put together a terrific system with great gear, and haven't said word one about NOT enjoying the sound so just sit back & enjoy it.

If this is just a matter of wanting to play with new toys, I hope you have a deep wallet to go with it. In which case I will bow out of this conversation because I'm all about helping people get the best sound possible & then just enjoying the music & movies. I'm not into being a gear ****.

digitalvideo · October 2009

praedet wrote: »

I liked my Outlaw 7700 much more than the Sunfire that was 5x200 @8ohms...

So I would put the Outlaw amp before the Sunfire, but that was me, and that was on LSis, not RTis...

Was your Sunfire the same one I have?

I keep reading good things about the Outlaw 7700 amp combined with the Outlaw pre/pro Model 990.

If you could give me specifics on what you heard i sound and performance between the Sunfire and Outlaw that made you choose the Outlaw would be helpful.

anhchungdoan · October 2009

digitalvideo wrote: »

It could be as simple of bi-amping it or letting the reciever drive only the fronts or sides.

The question is " Are you happy with the sound your system ?" If you do, get some improvement with some room acoustic treatment. Please keeo one thing in mind: Moving laterly does not achieve an improvement. Yet, different amp design may yield different type of sound IF your speakers are up to par to reveal the difference. Some amp may sound brighter than the others, some may give you up in the face type of sound, some will roll off hi-frquency, some will pack a boat load of tight bass...For H/T application, the center channel and the sub do most of the jobs not like in 2 channel audio. Your gear are not a top notch ones but they are well above average one , my congrat to you. To double the power from 100w to 200w only yield abt 3db, think about it. The sc05//sc07/sc09 at the same SPL you cannot hear any diffrence. More features maybe . Be happy and happy listenning.

digitalvideo · October 2009

cfrizz wrote: »

An amplifiers job is to amplify the sound. As long as it has enough power to give the speakers as much power as they need whenever they need it, the amp is doing its job.

I originally had a 50wpc Rotel amp driving my RTA-8T's. Then I got a 110wpc receiver. I couldn't hear a difference between the sound of the amp driving the speakers and the receiver driving the speakers.

I heard a clear and distinct improvement in the sound when I added a Parasound 205wpc amp to the receiver. It trumped both the receivers power & the Rotel amp power.

I heard a clear improvment when I added a 200wpc Outlaw monoblock for my center channel. Then I finally got the Sunfire 405wpc amp for all of my speakers. There was no improvement to my front stage, but my rear speakers finally sounded as good as my front speakers.

What I learned from this, is even though I added an additional 200watts over the Parasound & Outlaw amps, the sound couldn't be improved upon because my speakers were already getting everything they needed to operate to their full potential. (I had hit the limitation of my speakers not the amp.

Now if I were to get some LSI's or other 4ohms speakers, my amp would have to work much harder, and it would take more volume to achieve the kind of volume I acheive now, but I wouldn't have to worry since I know that the amp has what it needs to give to the speakers.

Bi-amping is useless since if you use the receiver it is still coming from the one amp in the receiver. And it doesn't make sense to do it with your Sunfire since it already has more than enough power to drive your speakers without all the extra wiring needed to bi-amp.

I really don't understand why you are so fretful about this. You have put together a terrific system with great gear, and haven't said word one about NOT enjoying the sound so just sit back & enjoy it.

If this is just a matter of wanting to play with new toys, I hope you have a deep wallet to go with it. In which case I will bow out of this conversation because I'm all about helping people get the best sound possible & then just enjoying the music & movies. I'm not into being a gear ****.

Thank you for this post, this gives a little more perspective.

I'm trying to get as close an effect to a movie theater as possible in my room, but of course my city's theater as around 7 speakers on each side wall. In the theater you can hear a loud gun shots from the sides and rear and my speakers sound muffled like a large object is in front of it. I turn up the volume and I get hit hard with the fronts and bass but I can't get the sides and rears to give me a true 7.1 surround sound consistantly. I play with the volume it's hard recreate an accurate sound from what the movie's soundtrack is offering. I have had people comment that when we were watching Master And Commander on bluray that they feel it was a little weak and I know watching Master And Commander in the theater that it has amazing sound especially the scene when the French ship fires it's cannon balls into Russell Crowe's ship and the splinters explode every where and it's suppose to hear that from all angles but it was coming up weak on my system, so I turn up the volume and I'm hearing way too much from the front and it's drownded out the sides and rear. When it comes to movie scenes inside a house during a conversion in the movie and a door opens and closes in the movie I am not picking up sounds which I should be hearing.

I'm not looking for a constant in your face explosion from all 7 speakers, I went with Polk because I heard the Klipsch were too bright and too piercing, so brightness isn't what I want, what I'm trying to get is accuracy, realism.

I think what is limiting my speakers from their true potential is not having a pre/pro, also my reciever is powering all 7 speakers and I was told earlier to let the reciever power the sides only or the fronts only?

So let the Sunfire amp power all 7 speakers, and the side speakers powered by the reciever? Or do I let the amp power the fronts and rears only and the reciever power the sides only?

If I can set my current system up properly I think I can hear a difference expecially with a pre/pro added in. I don't know if I meant I want it to sound "better" what I mean is wanting more specific detail and an accurate "portrayal" of what each scene is because these newer movie sound tracks offer you excellent sound, you just got to try to exploit it.

Toolfan66 · October 2009

Are your speakers set to large or small on your receiver? also did the person that set up your system use the microphone (MCACC) to set up your room to your speakers and receiver?

I am guessing your receiver is not set up properly.

I have my speakers set to small and used the MCACC to set it up. and I get sound from all directions. I am also using the SC-07 in a 7.2 set up with the RTiA9's CSiA6, 2 sets of FXiA6's for sides and rears with a DSW PRO 600 and 500. and I am happy with my HT for now.

nooshinjohn · October 2009

Understand also that format limitations come into play here as well. 99% of dvd/bluray releases are done in a 5.1 format, not 7.1 or better, so you will not be able on a reasoanble budget be able to get the same exact experience from a home system as you do a theater. By far the best system I have ever experienced in a "home" environment was that of(insert famous director here)... this system had seating for some 30 people and cost more than 2.5 million to set up. That said this director STILL could not fully replicate a theater experience, so he screen-tested everything in a real theater.

cfrizz · October 2009

You should be powering ALL your 7 speakers with the 7 channel Sunfire. That is the whole point of having an amp that you can hook all your speakers to.

Most people don't consider the back speakers as being important enough to amp. I totally disagree with that assessment. ALL speakers sound better when powered to their full potential.

So unhook whatever speakers are hooked up to the receiver & attach them to the Sunfire. Recalibrate & enjoy.

And unless you intend to buy more speakers & amps to put around the rest of the room for the realism of an actual movie theater, enjoy what you have because the post above is more accurate of what is truly achievable in the home theater environment.

Even if you did wire your home that way, there isn't any DVD that could utilize it.

Toolfan66 · October 2009

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Understand also that format limitations come into play here as well. 99% of dvd/bluray releases are done in a 5.1 format, not 7.1 or better, so you will not be able on a reasoanble budget be able to get the same exact experience from a home system as you do a theater. By far the best system I have ever experienced in a "home" environment was that of(insert famous director here)... this system had seating for some 30 people and cost more than 2.5 million to set up. That said this director STILL could not fully replicate a theater experience, so he screen-tested everything in a real theater.

The SC-05 and 07 do a great job at taking 5.1 to 7.1 so I really don't listen to the format limitations. granted a bluray in 7.1 format sounds better.

LandShark · October 2009

digitalvideo wrote: »

What's the best overall amp on the market for best bang for the buck for HT? I have a 7.1 surround sound system that I use primarily for tv/sports, movies/dvd/bluray. I'm currently driving my Polk's with a Pioneer Elite SC-05 reciever and Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature 400 7.1. I am reading more and more on this forum and on other website forums that the Sunfire amps don't give as much punch and clarity as other amps and should I sell my Sunfire for any one of the amps above to get a better sound for HT? I'm into realism, clarity, accuracy in sound detail when I watch tv-football, baseball, hockey and movies/dvd/bluray and to encompass myself and the room in the sound like I am in the movie and inside a sports stadium.

My home theater setup:

Pioneer Elite Kuro Pro-111fd plasma
Pioneer Elite SC-05 reciever
Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature 400 7.1
Oppo bdp-83
Balanced Power Technology BP-3.5 Signature Plus power conditioner

Polk RTi A9 front floor tower speakers L/R
Polk CSi A6 center speaker
Polk FXi A6 side speakers
Polk RTi A9 rear speakers
SVS PB12 Ultra sub

This set-up is exactly what I hope to end with after my upgradeitus. One question, how awesome is that SVS sub? What other subs have you had and how much better did this sub work for you? thanks...

Samsung Ln550 LCD TV
Polk monitor 70 mains
Polk CS2 center
Polk OWM3 surrounds
VRP1200 and VRP1000 subs
Sony BDP S350
Onkyo TX705 receiver

SCompRacer · October 2009

anhchungdoan wrote: »

......I would spend the extra money on room acoustic treament...

+ 1 to that! Great post, high marks.

Adcom vs Parasound vs Emotiva vs Sunfire vs Outlaw?

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