CD vs Vinyl sound
Comments
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I think this is worth repeating. Because if that much of an investment is needed for vinyl....then that's definitely an important part of this argument.
It is a little hard to believe what vinyl aficionados dish out for their equipment. And often beyond the reach of most of us.
cnh
It's all part of the journey to eek out every bit of performance out of the TT. The same can be said of speakers i.e. crossover upgrades/updates, Dynamatting, Mortiting, resonance elimination etc. The same can be said of amps, preamps, CDPs, SACD player etc. etc. etc.
You don't need to spend thousands upon thousands to get quality sound from a turntable. But let's face it aren't we all, in this hobby, trying to get the best performance out of our rigs?
My point above was to show the disparity between my vinyl front end and my digital fronts ends. This of course is going to be the major cause IMHO of the difference in the quality of sound a CD/SACD produces compared to vinyl. -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »so since cd gear costs less then it has better sound, of course not, the question was one vs another, cost valuation has nothing to do with SQ of one format vs another, I am though am not buying into needing thousands for a decent TT rig.
Rega, Project, Music Hall, all have quality TT's for very little investment, certainly not out of reach, they also build some hi-end tables if that is what someone wants.
I choose both, at least for now, the only regular member I can think of who is just vinyl is Chuck, so it seems the regular two channel members like both formats and enjoy getting their groove on with each. I would though say that vinyl posseses the greatest potential for SQ of the two formats. Since the format is better it would follow that you would need less expensive gear to get the sound, well, one could say that, but it is unlikely anyone is going to change their mind based on this forum and its guru's.
RT1
You hit that one out of the park Ted! -
Greg,
I'm all about tone, it's the first thing I listen for. Therefore, I will have to respectfully disagree with your opinion.
No problem here, I have the utmost respect for you and hope you can make it to PF this year, I'll buy you a root beer.
Jesse
Yeah, but you gotta admit Jess that you can't be bothered with all the hoops you may have to jump through with vinyl vs the convenience of excellent CD/SACD play back. I also know for a fact that you just want to hear pure music with out the occasional tick or pop or surface noise that you may have to listen past with vinyl.
It's ironic to me though that you would spend hours tracking down artifacts or slights changes in frequency responses on your speaker and experiment with adding or changes caps or resistors in said speaker to find that all important perfect sound. The same goes with your tube gear. That to me is same as my obsession with tweeking out my turntable. Yes? -
OK Jesse! I hope I can make to PF. Maybe we could have a "tone-off".:) You could play some CDs and I'll play some vinyl of some highly tonal music. I will even put some of that root beer on the vinyl to keep the pops and clicks to a minimum for ya.:p:p:D:D
GregIt's a crime to waste good root beer.
:eek::eek::eek: Greg, DON'T MESS WITH JESSE'S ROOT BEER. I think that Root Beer is Jesse's last vice! Well maybe throw Thai food in that mix.:D;) -
I have heard some extremely impressive vinyl rigs from some of our Polkies. I always enjoy listening to vinyl. I'm just not ready for the "ritual" that vinyl involves and to a lesser degree the inconvenience. I've heard good and bad vinyl and good and bad digital.
I'd love to have a nice vinyl rig partly for the nostalgia and partly because it's always a conversation piece. I have friends who get excited about the "hunt" for vinyl and i have to admit I get excited too.
One day I may add a vinyl rig, but I'd have to do it right which means spending some money. But I fear it will sit and collect dust most of the time. One of my dilemma's right now is because my rig is so revealing I'm finding a lot of my recordings lacking which in turn can be a little disappointing. I think in general, you can find better quality recordings amongst the old LP's vs cd's. Because the recordings were made before producers/mixers mucked things up.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
F1 cant do vinyl because he gets hypnotized watching the record spin, thats not really the problem though, its what he does once tranced that causes a major discontinuity of his circuitry, although he has apparently awoken in some quite unusual places.........
audio dudes are nuts, anybody reading this thread would be like WTF are these guys talking about........but sure makes for some fun.
RT1 -
I have heard some extremely impressive vinyl rigs from some of our Polkies. I always enjoy listening to vinyl. I'm just not ready for the "ritual" that vinyl involves and to a lesser degree the inconvenience. I've heard good and bad vinyl and good and bad digital.
I'd love to have a nice vinyl rig partly for the nostalgia and partly because it's always a conversation piece. I have friends who get excited about the "hunt" for vinyl and i have to admit I get excited too.
One day I may add a vinyl rig, but I'd have to do it right which means spending some money. But I fear it will sit and collect dust most of the time. One of my dilemma's right now is because my rig is so revealing I'm finding a lot of my recordings lacking which in turn can be a little disappointing. I think in general, you can find better quality recordings amongst the old LP's vs cd's. Because the recordings were made before producers/mixers mucked things up.
H9
Cheapskate!
I find that extremely hard to believe Brock because as you said above the hunt for vinyl discussed by your friends excites you to, thus you would be out there and then running home with arms full of LPs.
IMHO that not true Bro. I purchased many many LP & CD reissues and remasters that sound spectacular. Just one that comes to mind is the Classic Records 200 gm vinyl releases of the Led Zepplin studio recordings. An example of a reissued CD that is spectacular is Black Sabath "Paranoid." The more revealing the rig the better . . . well you know!
Methinks thou tryest to put off the inevitable plunge into vinyl!!!!:p;):D -
They did.
You seem to have a misconception about CD's, seemingly based off of two that you own. If you think that vinyl inherently sounds better than CD's you are sadly mistaken as nothing could be farther from the truth. If anything, the early CDP's lacked the technology to extract the best sound from CD's. That is not the case today.
What are using for your CDP?
No, not really. I have hundreds of CDs and enjoy most of them. I grew up with vinyl and then, in the early 80s, tape. I bought my first CD player in 1988. A Magnavox CDB-480. While not top of the line by any means, it was better than a few back in the day. I still use it to this day as it has not skipped a beat in 22 years! I like the sound of both vinyl and CD. Even tape when done right. So, I am not picking sides. Things are more like they are now than they ever will be! -
No, not really. I have hundreds of CDs and enjoy most of them. I grew up with vinyl and then, in the early 80s, tape. I bought my first CD player in 1988. A Magnavox CDB-480. While not top of the line by any means, it was better than a few back in the day. I still use it to this day as it has not skipped a beat in 22 years! I like the sound of both vinyl and CD. Even tape when done right. So, I am not picking sides.
I too grew up on vinyl, so I know what it's about and that's why I left it behind.
I have to say that CDP's have come a very long way in 22 years. I would suggest that you seriously consider upgrading.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You have a CDP whose laser unit is still working after 22 years! That must be some kind of RECORD (pun intended!).
That is impressive. Ok, I'm going to venture a small comparison here that I actually remember. When Phil Glass's Einstein on the Beach came out my friend who had a decent TT and an integrated amp played it for us on his EPI towers.....it sounded GREAT!
Years later I bought the CD and played it on a decent CDP and separates but it just didn't 'sound' the same. There was something missing. The Vinyl version just had more sound on it. Now, I suspect that much of this was just a problem with the transfer to CD however it was done...I'm not sure! Einstein on the Beach may not be a favorite of anyone here but it is a 'good' piece to listen for layering, detail, soundstage and so on....and it is also very DYNAMIC at certain points where it picks up steam. I would venture to say that the vinyl version actually had a more Dynamic sound than the CD. But, with Brock, I have also heard the exact opposite--where the vinyl sounds flat and the CD knocks it out of the park.
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
You have a CDP whose laser unit is still working after 22 years! That must be some kind of RECORD (pun intended!).
That is impressive. Ok, I'm going to venture a small comparison here that I actually remember. When Phil Glass's Einstein on the Beach came out my friend who had a decent TT and an integrated amp played it for us on his EPI towers.....it sounded GREAT!
Years later I bought the CD and played it on a decent CDP and separates but it just didn't 'sound' the same. There was something missing. The Vinyl version just had more sound on it. Now, I suspect that much of this was just a problem with the transfer to CD however it was done...I'm not sure! Einstein on the Beach may not be a favorite of anyone here but it is a 'good' piece to listen for layering, detail, soundstage and so on....and it is also very DYNAMIC at certain points where it picks up steam. I would venture to say that the vinyl version actually had a more Dynamic sound than the CD. But, with Brock, I have also heard the exact opposite--where the vinyl sounds flat and the CD knocks it out of the park.
cnh
That was my first thought when I read your post. Some CDs & LPs can be really lousy when massed produced (and that can be a crap shoot) and can have a myriad of other things that can go wrong as stated throughout this thread.
E.g., I have three vinyl copies of Jethro Tull's "Benefit." They came from three different lot presssings but are from the same label. Two of them sound compressed and lifeless. The other sounds very, very good. -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »...audio dudes are nuts, anybody reading this thread would be like WTF are these guys talking about........but sure makes for some fun.
RT1
Truer words have not been spoken~TNRabbit
NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
Sunfire TG-IV
Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
Carver AL-III Speakers
Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer -
hearingimpared wrote: »That was my first thought when I read your post. Some CDs & LPs can be really lousy when massed produced (and that can be a crap shoot) and can have a myriad of other things that can go wrong as stated throughout this thread.
E.g., I have three vinyl copies of Jethro Tull's "Benefit." They came from three different lot presssings but are from the same label. Two of them sound compressed and lifeless. The other sounds very, very good.
Hey,Joe,, which pressing is the keeper?JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut) -
george daniel wrote: »Hey,Joe,, which pressing is the keeper?
I'll have to get back to you on that one George. My wife dared to go into my room a while back and "make it presentable for company" and I have no idea where things are at the moment.:mad: Just as I had to dig for days to find the shims which were at one time setting on the table that my VPI 16.5 sets on, I have to do the same type of seeking out what LPs are where as I had them in a certain order where I knew where everything was and could go right to it and pick out any record I wanted in a few seconds. She just piled and lumped everything together. :mad: UGH!!!:mad:
Can that be grounds for divorce? hehehe:rolleyes: -
I can hear the difference between Cd and Vinyl and Vinyl can sound better. But each case is different. I don't think you can make a blanket statement that either one is the best. I started before cassettes, when vinyl and reel to reel tape were the only choices. The forces on vinyl from the tiny point of a stylus are very high. Perhaps the reason that vinyl is "warmer" is that the stylus is rubbing away the high frequencies every time you play a record. I used to buy a record, clean it carefully, and play it one time, recording it to a cassette (using DBX - anybody remember that? - DBX is something like Dolby but better).
I hate to listen to the pops, crackles, and snaps on vinyl and would rather play CD's.
Now I have found SACD's which, to me, are the best compromise. Too bad the music choices are so limited.Front - Polk LSiM 705, Center - Polk LSiM 704c, Rear - Polk LSi 7
Subwoofer - Epik Legend
Receiver (as Preamp) - Sony STR-DA3400 ES
Amplifier - Outlaw 7125
Television - 58" Samsung Plasma PN58B860
Blu Ray - OPPO BDP 83 -
hearingimpared wrote: »That was my first thought when I read your post. Some CDs & LPs can be really lousy when massed produced (and that can be a crap shoot) and can have a myriad of other things that can go wrong as stated throughout this thread.
E.g., I have three vinyl copies of Jethro Tull's "Benefit." They came from three different lot presssings but are from the same label. Two of them sound compressed and lifeless. The other sounds very, very good.
I remember that album 'well'...one of the 40 CDs I copied onto my hard drive (lossless of course...it's all I have over here) for the China trip was a Tull album. God am I that old! I also remember when everything was LP (or R-T-R) tape.
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
The "CD" sound many refer to is just stupid recording engineers that don't know how to lay down the music in the digital domain. I've heard CDs made from tape & LP that sound FANTASTIC. Maybe the 'pressing" they do in bulk to make CDs isn't as good as actually burning them, either.
I have some astoundingly good SACDs, and some astoundingly BAD CDs. I recently had a chance to compare 10cc's "The Original Sountrack" on both a burned CD of the original LP (sounded good except for the bloated bass & SNAP-CRACKLE-POP), and a Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs Gold CD of the same. MoFi really stepped on their d*(ks with that recording, as well as the "Moving Pictures" MoFI CD I've had for years. The MoFi' are flat & lifeless. So I'm pretty certain that is due to incorrect recording procedures OR a bad source copy.
Frank Zappa had this to say about recording:
The Frank Zappa article was brilliant and sincere.
Outstanding article! Enlightening. -
IDK. I've been mostly a CD guy all my life due to it being easy to use. However I just got into vinyl and do like what I'm hearing. One that I compared was Radiohead Kid A, and the vinyl just for me has a warmer sound. Its hard to describe but my gf also was listening and preferred it over the CD.
I think it depends a lot on the recording. For me Vinyl gives me a bit warmer sound (I think) than CD's but then yet CD's are a lot easier to just toss in the player and not think about it. -
Why didn't they make CDs sound as good as vinyl, or better, right off the bat? No punn intended but, it sounds funny to me!
David Manley addresses that very issue in his book,, I'll try to get it posted later on. Alot has to do with PROFIT,,labor,cost,,and just plain convenienceJC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut) -
Yes, after 22 years, my CD player marches on! It has two 16 bit D/A converters. A good chunk of the ones I was looking at back then usually had one D/A converter and/or fewer bits.
I honestly don't want to upgrade until this one dies. However, I might do it if a good deal came along. I am still waiting to get a Denon AVR 1910. Life and kids tends to suck up funds!
I bet there are over 2,000 hours on my CDP. Maybe more!Things are more like they are now than they ever will be! -
IDK. I've been mostly a CD guy all my life due to it being easy to use. However I just got into vinyl and do like what I'm hearing. One that I compared was Radiohead Kid A, and the vinyl just for me has a warmer sound. Its hard to describe but my gf also was listening and preferred it over the CD.
I think it depends a lot on the recording. For me Vinyl gives me a bit warmer sound (I think) than CD's but then yet CD's are a lot easier to just toss in the player and not think about it.
This album is amazing! I have both the CD and a vinyl rip. They both sound amazing! You're right, they do sound different. I prefer the CD version a little more, but probably only because the vinyl rip has a fair amount of pops and clicks. Although, it's sort of the type of music where pops and clicks don't really bother me, so sometimes I prefer to listen to the vinyl rip. Both great! -
...recording it to a cassette (using DBX - anybody remember that? - DBX is something like Dolby but better).
Yes, I had (still have) a dbx 224:
So the next question is, does anyone remember dbx discs? (note the dbx disc button on the unit).
They were mostly only sold in audio shops that carried dbx gear, so they never really caught on. I bet the old dbx disc LP's are worth quite a bit. Maybe I'll have to track one down and try it out.
edit to add: here's a dbx disc by the Police, asking $200 bucks. I think I'll pass.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Police-ZENYATTA-MONDATTA-DBX-NAUTILUS-LP-/110453855047?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item19b7901347 -
Yes, I had (still have) a dbx 224:
So the next question is, does anyone remember dbx discs? (note the dbx disc button on the unit).
They were mostly only sold in audio shops that carried dbx gear, so they never really caught on. I bet the old dbx disc LP's are worth quite a bit. Maybe I'll have to track one down and try it out.
edit to add: here's a dbx disc by the Police, asking $200 bucks. I think I'll pass.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Police-ZENYATTA-MONDATTA-DBX-NAUTILUS-LP-/110453855047?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item19b7901347
I sold my dbx 224x Type II a little while ago and included four dbx encoded LPs with it as well as dozens of dbx endcoded cassettes that I had made.
I just recently acquired another dbx 224x for my R2R. I'm sorry that I sold my original one with the LPs and cassettes now!
The 224x Type II has many more features and is much more versatile than the original 224.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49618 -
For an upgrade, which model CD player would you guys recommend? Something in the $2-300 range. And new???Things are more like they are now than they ever will be!
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Wow that's a tough call I've heard almost 'nothing' that I am happy with in that price range....especially 'new'. Can't even think of one at the moment. Maybe someone else has some suggestions.
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
FWIW, my approach has been an OK transport and a good DAC. In my case the "good DAC" is a cheap DAC (Zhaolu) that has been extensively hotrodded by someone who knows what he is doing (Kevin Kennedy, who has done this stuff professionally, both on his own and for some of the Big Names). Total cash outlay is pretty modest; sound quality is very good.
YMMV, of course. -
For an upgrade, which model CD player would you guys recommend? Something in the $2-300 range. And new???
Oppo HD 970 (used, about $100). Fantastic little player.TNRabbit
NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
Sunfire TG-IV
Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
Carver AL-III Speakers
Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer -
For an upgrade, which model CD player would you guys recommend? Something in the $2-300 range. And new???
Perhaps a used Denon?-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
2 Channel:
Oppo BDP-83 SE
Squeezebox Touch
Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
VTL 2.5
McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
Thanks. I will look to see what I can find. I might just save up a little longer and get the Oppo BDP-83 that everyone raves about.
What kind of a name is Oppo anyway? I have wondered that since I first noticed them.Things are more like they are now than they ever will be! -
Thanks. I will look to see what I can find.
You may want to call Audio Advisor and see if the Cambridge Audio 340 CD player is still available. I receive their quarterly catalog yesterday and the 340 was on sale for $269.00.
If you can push your budget out to $350.00, you may want to consider Onkyo's C-S5VL 2 channel stereo CD/SACD player. It's a dedicated audio player that has received very positive notices.
